Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

cmspano wrote:
On Fire Warriors, they're significantly better with a Fireblade. A min squad of FWs for 40 points is getting 15 S5 shots within 15". 18" with the pulse accelerator. Plus they bring a BS 2+ Markerlight

Fireblades also buff gun drones because they don't specify Infantry, just <Sept> units with the valid pulse weapons. A Gun Drone buffed by a Fireblade is getting 6 shots at 9", for an 8 point model.

With a BS 2 markerlight hit allowing rerolls of 1 to hit I had 15 Fire Warriors, a Fireblade, and like 5 gun drones do about 8 unsaved wounds to Skarbrand the other day. Then a fusion commander finished him off. Fire Warriors aren't game winners, but with a Fireblade you can pull about 70+ shots for around 200 points.

Fireblade is 45 pts I think
15 Fire warriors is 120
5 Gun Drones is 40
205 points for up to 75 pulse shots and a BS 2 Markerlight.

They don't win games by themselves but they provide a lot of cheap supporting fire for your hard hitters with the right buffs.

Pretty sure the Drones only get 5 shots when buffed by Fireblade.

xmbk wrote:

Pretty sure the Drones only get 5 shots when buffed by Fireblade.

Why? They have 2 weapons. Fireblade lets them fire an extra shot with their weapons; if you ahve 2 weapons, you get an extra shot for each

Fair enough, I've been brainfarting on that. Effective list I've been using, even with only 5 drone shots at short.


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [38 PL, 492pts] ++

+ HQ [8 PL, 132pts] +

Ethereal [4 PL, 66pts]: Honour blade, Hover Drone [1 PL, 5pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]

Ethereal [4 PL, 66pts]: Honour blade, Hover Drone [1 PL, 5pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]

+ Troops [6 PL, 120pts] +

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot [60pts]

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot [60pts]

+ Fast Attack [24 PL, 240pts] +

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [34 PL, 542pts] ++

+ HQ [6 PL, 111pts] +

Cadre Fireblade [3 PL, 50pts]: Markerlight [3pts], MV1 Gun Drone [8pts]

Ethereal [3 PL, 61pts]: Honour blade, 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]

+ Troops [12 PL, 168pts] +

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

+ Fast Attack [16 PL, 263pts] +

Pathfinder Team [4 PL, 113pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts]
. Pathfinder [8pts]: Markerlight [3pts]
. Pathfinder Shas'ui [8pts]: Markerlight [3pts]
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Rail Rifle [81pts]: 3x Rail rifle [66pts]

Vespid Stingwings [6 PL, 75pts]: 4x Vespid Stingwing [60pts], Vespid Strain Leader [15pts]

Vespid Stingwings [6 PL, 75pts]: 4x Vespid Stingwing [60pts], Vespid Strain Leader [15pts]

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [60 PL, 966pts] ++

+ HQ [14 PL, 352pts] +

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster [84pts], 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts]

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster [84pts], 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts]

+ Troops [16 PL, 224pts] +

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [32pts]

+ Elites [14 PL, 230pts] +

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 115pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts]
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker [64pts]: 2x Burst cannon [20pts], 2x Multi-tracker [4pts]
. Stealth Shas'vre [35pts]: Burst cannon [10pts], Drone controller [5pts]

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 115pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts]
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker [64pts]: 2x Burst cannon [20pts], 2x Multi-tracker [4pts]
. Stealth Shas'vre [35pts]: Burst cannon [10pts], Drone controller [5pts]

+ Fast Attack [16 PL, 160pts] +

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound [20pts]

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound [20pts]

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound [20pts]

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound [20pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone [40pts]

++ Total: [132 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

It's based on not providing any juicy targets, and the fact that S5 basic weapons don't need heavy backup. The FW and pathfinders wrap the foot ethereal and cadre, all get buffed. Haven't had a game yet where that firebase wasn't feasible. The stealths and disc Ethereal provide mobile firepower with the drones. Vespids can wrap the commanders. Kroot and Hounds slow advances, claim objectives. Vespids and disc Ethereals may be a luxury, but the rest of the list is pretty tight. Haven't had to do a pure kill points battle yet. They are pretty stupid and I try to avoid them, but wiping the table is a realistic option with this list.

Hi I'm new to tau and Friends of mine are trying to get me into 40k, not sure if i want to as i may not have the full dedication of time for it. However, looking at some of the models, I love some of em even on just a collecting and hobby standpoint (i like mecha). So given that there are some units that i like, would a basic 1000pt army work with this composition?

+++ tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [49 PL, 1000pts] +++

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [1000pts] ++

+ HQ [] +

Commander []: 4x Fusion blaster [], 2x MV1 Gun Drone []

Vehicle/super heavy eater with light protection that can homing beacon in.

+ Elites [] +

XV104 Riptide Battlesuit []: 2x Smart missile system [], Advanced targeting system [], Heavy burst cannon [], Target lock []

Love the model and tried to keep the points down (lol). Serves as my anti infantry (light to heavy), nova charging whenever needed. Will be protected by drones.

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits []: Homing beacon [], 2x MV1 Gun Drone []
. 3x Stealth Shas'ui w/o support system []: 3x Burst cannon []

Homing beacon vessel, harasser, supporting unit. Gives me more anti infantry as well.

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit []: 2x Fusion blaster [], Fusion collider [], 2x MV5 Stealth Drone [], Stimulant injector [], Target lock []

Great survibability from what i read, a second source of anti heavy/heavy infantry/super heavy. (had 5 pts left, so i just got his "6+ save")

+ Fast Attack [] +

Pathfinder Team []
. 7x Pathfinder []: 7x Markerlight []
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Rail Rifle []: 3x Rail rifle []

Markerlight support (i think i really only want the 1st markerlight), boots on the ground, with light vehicle/heavy inf killing ability.

Tactical Drones []: 4x MV1 Gun Drone []

XV104 bodyguards

I understand some might cry cheese, but tbh from what ive been reading, im actually gimping myself by including the riptide and the keel in one list. Im putting em both because theyre both models that i love (HUEG MECH), and the others based on what I can find that works pretty well. Again, this is a list that is collecting first, and then casual gaming with my buddies second.

Thank you!

Guys there's a 40k Army list subforum.

True, but lots of people in this thread don't venture that way all that often. You're also less likely to get the volume of experienced Tau players looking over your lists in that forum.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well the storm surge sucks too.

Not in my opinion.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well the storm surge sucks too.

Not in my opinion.

I think the stormsurge sucks, compared to all other units available within the codex and within other codexes, after bearing in mind the internal synergies will boost the effectiveness of the stormsurge (and without).

So whilst I appreciate Jancoran you may disagree, the current iteration of the stormsurge makes it very lackluster.

It is very survivable. I am not sure if this equates to being cost-effectively survivable.

It has an array of weapons, most of which are standard weapons available to all (virtually all) models within the tau army and one big gun + 4 rockets. The array isn't a huge volume of shots (again, looking at other unit options within/without the codex).

The main gun is just lack luster, a combination of a lack of shots, damage (i.e. D6) and accuracy. I've looked again and oh my, it is disheartening.

The rockets are also poor, requiring an interesting level of support, otherwise you may hit with 1 rocket, but the impact is.. not enough. The damage of the destroyer missiles is lack luster, compared with other mortal wound causing units in the game.

I'm clocking 430pts - 480pts, it doesn't need to be cheaper but for the point is most certainly does not accomplish it's goal/benchmarks/hitting power/staying power/mobility (once again, compared to units within the index and without in other army options).

So a little bit more specific than, "I disagree with you".

But I do disagree with you.

Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.

we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.

You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.

Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.

Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.

I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo.

That's part of why fusion commanders are so ubiquitous, they kill what has to be killed without any support needed.

xmbk wrote:
I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo.

That's part of why fusion commanders are so ubiquitous, they kill what has to be killed without any support needed.

Well, yes and no. You kind of have to assume marker lights on a list-wide basis, otherwise you're missing the boat. What's important is to have a really clear idea how many markers you have, how likely they are likely to last, and how many units you can realistically expect to light up in a given turn depending on how many hits you need for the necessary buff. Units that function well without markerlights are essential because you're never going to be able to light up every target in a a turn. More likely it'll be a small handful of key targets you want to focus on, and units like the commander allow you to engage other targets at full capacity.

So yeah, compare stats without markerlight buffs for sure, but they still need to be a part of the conversation, same as aura buffs. The Tau just have an extra layer of analysis compared to other armies, which we can get done in all the extra time we have not worrying about the psychic rules.

I'm going to take off my Captain Obvious hat now....

Not sure I agree that it's missing the boat to go without markerlights. They are just another tool. I think players sometimes analyze a unit without factoring in the hidden cost of the markerlights. It's all about opportunity cost. Fill your army with units that are effective without lights, and you have 10-15% more firepower.

 Jancoran wrote:
You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time.

It doesn't have immense killing power, that's the thing.

xmbk wrote:
Not sure I agree that it's missing the boat to go without markerlights. They are just another tool. I think players sometimes analyze a unit without factoring in the hidden cost of the markerlights. It's all about opportunity cost. Fill your army with units that are effective without lights, and you have 10-15% more firepower.

Sure, there are lists that get on just fine without, no question about that. Whether that amounts by itself to 10-15% more firepower is debatable, The effectiveness of marker lights is based almost entirely on how many guns will benefit. Smaller unit count suit based armies, who can replicate certain ML effects using suit systems, need them a lot less than an army heavy on gun drones and Tau infantry. How heavily you invest in MLs depends on your build, not on some a priori valuation of ML as a tool.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the variety of builds makes it a little more nuanced than your post above seems to suggest.

Gun drones and infantry don't need more than 1 ML, and the points could be replicated by simply buying more drones or FW. It's the big guns that benefit from saturating a target with lights, esp something like the Stormsurge missiles. Those need to make up at least 10-15% more points worth of hits, based on spending 100-150 points on ML in a 2k list.

The current table is underwhelming. The codex might make ML a better investment, but right now they are far from no-brainer, imo.

 Jancoran wrote:
Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.

we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.

You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.

Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.

Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.

Even if it's weapons were good - and for their cost they are not. SS has to move forward to get into range. So instead of plus 1 BS for standing still - it's -1 bs for moving. That makes you BS 5+. Or I guess - they can just walk into your range like idiots. I'd honestly take a ION riptide over the trash stormsurge.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.

we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.

You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.

Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.

Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.

Even if it's weapons were good - and for their cost they are not. SS has to move forward to get into range. So instead of plus 1 BS for standing still - it's -1 bs for moving. That makes you BS 5+. Or I guess - they can just walk into your range like idiots. I'd honestly take a ION riptide over the trash stormsurge.

Ahem, you're forgetting the Walking Battleship rule that negates the -1 penalty for moving and shooting Heavy weapons. Also, the Stormsurge has pretty respectable range, especially with the Pulse Driver Cannon.

 Jancoran wrote:
Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.

we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.

You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.

Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.

Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.

Rockets; Don't get me wrong, with a little bit of support, they are become very accurate. However 4D3 mortal wounds does not equal 12 wounds, (yes it is as many as but let's be more clear and reasonable and talk about averages) so 6 wounds. 6 Mortal wounds is a thing but it is not impressive or impactful, given the cost of the platform. 35/36 chance* to hit is great (*lets assume we have the markerlights here; the cost/ability to counter/avoid/etc is a separate debate**) but the outcome of 4d6 mortal wounds is not great or even that good. I.e. what will it do? Nuke a smaller charater? Drop a vehicle down a level or two. Wipe a small infantry squad or light vehicle. Eh

My whole point is... the "big-bad-thing" (a very reasonable point, lots of armies will have singular threats, tougher units like knights etc)... it can get more effectively countered, more cheaply, by using units other-than a stormsurge.

In terms of other units being able to engage other things died in 8th edition where you can split fire.. most things. The amount of str5 firepower (yes it will likely be at -1AP due to ATS) is very simply 20-40 (average of 30) str5 shots. That is, base, 10-20 (average of 15) hits. 15 str 5 hits is not very impressive for a 430-480pt unit. 12 gun drones are 96pts and get 10 str5 hits (yes, I concede without the AP-1 and at lower ranges on a less resilient platform), so whilst I can see your point that you're lumping all of this fanastic firepower into one deathball... that firepower just isn't that good. What will 15 str5 hits accomplish? If the weapons got to fire twice or the Stormsurge had some form of over-charged support systems or something else like that, then the weapons that exist of the chasis could be amazing but currently it is very lack lustre (for the points). (Yes it can anchor and fire at +1 to hit, it's good, but the downsides are very severe)

The problem with the Stormsurge is that.. unlike in the previous edition, it's ability to look at things across the table and delete them.. it can't do that anymore. Lets aim our maxed out best-loadout Stormsurge and aim it at... not two Y'vahras but two.. Rhinos (or Razorbacks). How likely will it be to take them out?

**Now how easy is it for the razorback player to hide from either the marker lights or the stormsurge (just to highlight the need for synergy, which doesn't translate into killing power). I'm fairly sure the Stormsurge struggles? D3 shots wounding on 3's, D6 damage.... or 2 shots wounding on 2's with 6 damage. (maybe 4 shots wounding on 3's.. with 3 damage = can you see the poor scaling here?). The latter two options being at fairly crazy 10 or 20" ranges, on a model with 6" movement and no speed-enhancing benefits. (i.e. no red paint).

Reason why I'm going on at length is because I see your advice as bad, I'm trying to reason out why I don't think it is good and I would hope to see other tau generals (at least at the moment, fingers crossed for the codex) fielding more effective options and bringing the Greater Good to all

4d3 averages 8.

I think it's a real stretch to say the Stormsurge is a competitive option right now, and I'm not convinced I would even bring it to a casual game.

xmbk wrote:
I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..

Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haechi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time.

It doesn't have immense killing power, that's the thing.

It does and its strange to me to hear you say that. With Pylkons down and Markerlights on, it is hitting with all four missiles...average 8 wounds against which there is no answer other than the occassional 6+ FnP. It is firing its shotgun with immense killing power as well and hitting with it almost assuredly without fail (yes it happens...of course). Another 12 wounds potentially. ALL this on one target at one time and we havent even fired the rest fo the weapons that use ATS. I'm sorry, but that is straight up scary firepower.

A one time use 8 wounds is not great man. And the 12 wounds potentially are a very unreliable potentially. 20" is gak, I know, I played Bastiladons a lot. 4 shots is gak too. You will miss some, then sometimes roll a one or two to wound, then your opponent will pass some invulnerable saves, and you'll end up far from 12 wounds. That's not even considering the fact that your opponent will shoot at the Stormsurge and it will quickly go down to BS5+. If we had to judge our entries on wound potential then 3 Crisis with 3 Missile Pod each would be amazing at a whooping 54 potential wounds.

At least if the gun remained at Heavy 6 all the time, that would be something, but right now, it's really nothing to be excited about.

To me the issue is not even the price, it's the unreliability. And that's a common trait to the entire army, and it is why reliable entries like Commanders are preferred.

If only we had twice the amount of shots on all our guns, then it would work. Or +1BS at 3 Markerlight.

 Jancoran wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..

Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access?

Because it is a hidden cost to the Stormsurge. You have to pay for those markerlights. Fusion Commanders don't need them.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I think it's a real stretch to say the Stormsurge is a competitive option right now, and I'm not convinced I would even bring it to a casual game.

Hard to disagree, and I could say that about several other awesome models, unfortunately. Stormsurges have reasonably good durability for the price, but as noted repeatedly, mass s5 fire is not something we're hurting for at all. The pulse driver is a complete joke now, and while the blast cannon is actually fairly decent, the overall cost of the surge renders it awful. D missiles need a lot of help to be worth the cost. They just don't drop enough damage to validate the points or logistical problems involved in using them. Please, codex, make Stormsurges great again!

i used it in a couple of games and yeah it just doesnt do anything.
Inability to drone-guard it means it gets picked down to BS5+ almost instantly, and at that point hes practically worthless. The fact that we need him to not get down to 10 or less wounds for a full turn so he can deploy anchors AND get a fistful of lights on a target to even attempt to use those destroyer missiles is irritating, then they just do a combined 5 damage because D3 luck is horrible. Destroyer missiles should be doing D6 damage or flat 3 given how insanely expensive it is to bring them. I could just bring well over a dozen seekers for about the same price, and because of ML's not spending anymore get them all off just as reliably.

Also would like to point out how disgustingly bad hazard suits are right now. Why they got nerfed is beyond me, they werent that great to begin with. The only gun worth shaking a stick at last edition was the phased ions, which did 4 shots at S4 AP5 Rending. Now they do D3 shots and didnt get stronger or longer range or cheaper...wat?
Another FW model i own that will collect dust now.

Hey guys, what do you vote for:

2 HRR Broadsides with Velocity tracker and pocket Ethereal

or

3 Crisis with 3 Missile pods each with a pocket Ethereal

Both will come with a few Shield Drones

xmbk wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..

Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access?

Because it is a hidden cost to the Stormsurge. You have to pay for those markerlights. Fusion Commanders don't need them.

Fusion commanders dont need them and Fusion Commanders do nowhere near the damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haechi wrote:
A one time use 8 wounds is not great man. And the 12 wounds potentially are a very unreliable potentially. 20" is gak, I know, I played Bastiladons a lot. 4 shots is gak too. You will miss some, then sometimes roll a one or two to wound, then your opponent will pass some invulnerable saves, and you'll end up far from 12 wounds. That's not even considering the fact that your opponent will shoot at the Stormsurge and it will quickly go down to BS5+. If we had to judge our entries on wound potential then 3 Crisis with 3 Missile Pod each would be amazing at a whooping 54 potential wounds.

At least if the gun remained at Heavy 6 all the time, that would be something, but right now, it's really nothing to be excited about.

To me the issue is not even the price, it's the unreliability. And that's a common trait to the entire army, and it is why reliable entries like Commanders are preferred.

If only we had twice the amount of shots on all our guns, then it would work. Or +1BS at 3 Markerlight.

Then play without a Stormsurge? If your only defense is to say "12 wounds from just two of its weapon systmes from one unit in one round is nothing big" well then um... sure. Don't use one. I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sabaw wrote:
Hi I'm new to tau and Friends of mine are trying to get me into 40k, not sure if i want to as i may not have the full dedication of time for it. However, looking at some of the models, I love some of em even on just a collecting and hobby standpoint (i like mecha). So given that there are some units that i like, would a basic 1000pt army work with this composition?

+++ tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [49 PL, 1000pts] +++

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [1000pts] ++

+ HQ [] +

Commander []: 4x Fusion blaster [], 2x MV1 Gun Drone []

Vehicle/super heavy eater with light protection that can homing beacon in.

+ Elites [] +

XV104 Riptide Battlesuit []: 2x Smart missile system [], Advanced targeting system [], Heavy burst cannon [], Target lock []

Love the model and tried to keep the points down (lol). Serves as my anti infantry (light to heavy), nova charging whenever needed. Will be protected by drones.

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits []: Homing beacon [], 2x MV1 Gun Drone []
. 3x Stealth Shas'ui w/o support system []: 3x Burst cannon []

Homing beacon vessel, harasser, supporting unit. Gives me more anti infantry as well.

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit []: 2x Fusion blaster [], Fusion collider [], 2x MV5 Stealth Drone [], Stimulant injector [], Target lock []

Great survibability from what i read, a second source of anti heavy/heavy infantry/super heavy. (had 5 pts left, so i just got his "6+ save")

+ Fast Attack [] +

Pathfinder Team []
. 7x Pathfinder []: 7x Markerlight []
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Rail Rifle []: 3x Rail rifle []

Markerlight support (i think i really only want the 1st markerlight), boots on the ground, with light vehicle/heavy inf killing ability.

Tactical Drones []: 4x MV1 Gun Drone []

XV104 bodyguards

I understand some might cry cheese, but tbh from what ive been reading, im actually gimping myself by including the riptide and the keel in one list. Im putting em both because theyre both models that i love (HUEG MECH), and the others based on what I can find that works pretty well. Again, this is a list that is collecting first, and then casual gaming with my buddies second.

Thank you!

It looks potent at 1K


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haechi wrote:
Hey guys, what do you vote for:

2 HRR Broadsides with Velocity tracker and pocket Ethereal

or

3 Crisis with 3 Missile pods each with a pocket Ethereal

Both will come with a few Shield Drones

Well since enemies with any sense will not try to outshoot Tau (in general) and will approach, and given the Smart Missiles are copious enough and good enough against a lot of targets... and there's more wounds in the Broadsides that are harder to remove... and given that it takes more wounds to reduce the units firepower...I'd say Broadsides in that scenario.

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Also would like to point out how disgustingly bad hazard suits are right now. Why they got nerfed is beyond me, they werent that great to begin with. The only gun worth shaking a stick at last edition was the phased ions, which did 4 shots at S4 AP5 Rending. Now they do D3 shots and didnt get stronger or longer range or cheaper...wat?
Another FW model i own that will collect dust now.

Erm... Hazards with DBBC are one of the msot cost-effective units in our payroll. Slap an ATS on it and watch GAQ stuff melt!
Also, they can bring 4 drones with only 1 suit.

Think of them as concentraded Fire Warriors you can put anywhere on the table
The Fusion Cascade option isn't as good as the Commander (and what is), but it's more cost-effective than Melta Crisis

The other 2 weapons are simply too bad for now

 Jancoran wrote:

Fusion commanders dont need them and Fusion Commanders do nowhere near the damage.

I'm guessing you mean "per model". If you mean per point, I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient for taking out that enemy unit that has to be taken out immediately.

I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient for taking out that enemy unit that has to be taken out immediately.

That's probably because it's not. 3 fusion Commanders are going to wreck a lot more face than a Stormsurge, and I'd like to think it's fairly obvious to just about everyone that's the case. We waste a lot of time going foolishly going in endless circles regarding clearly underpowered units in these Tau threads, and there's a reason all I can see of the other side of the discussion is your quoted text.

Hazards with DBBC are one of the msot cost-effective units in our payroll.

I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but they're a reasonable option, mostly thanks to the 4 drone thing. 93pts for 4 burst cannons on a somewhat durable platform isn't exactly a steal, but it's worth considering. If you can wrangle a drone controller in range from another source, that's certainly quite helpful. It's nice to drop in next to a Commander or two for some crowd control and much-needed drone wounds.