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FirePainter wrote: Seeker missile hit normal if you have 2 markerlights on a target. Still doesn't make the skyrays useful since once you blow the first turn load you are 100ish points for 2 markerlights and sms. If there had been a strategem to rearm a units seeker missile skyrays would have been amazing. As such I don't think they are worth the points.
I don't know....they are very good at eliminating big threats on the first turn. No shooting doesn't matter if there's nothing left to shoot at 3 skyrays shooting 18 missiles should completely decimate anything they want, including mortarions or other bad things. Do they still have networked markerlights?
I’m personally looking at 2 Broadsides and a Skyray – which, with the way I have them set is only 44 points more expensive than Longstrike with Ion and an Ionhead.
Skyray for me is all about that turn 1 delete 1 or 2 units. After that it just becomes another markerlight battery with the odd SMS damage, while sitting on an objective. It’s damage potential is extremely high for that 1 round, if you have the 5 markerlight support for it.
It can definitely be played around though, with LoS denial and deep-striking – but it still means your opponent has to get rid of it turn 1. If it is on the table with a couple of Ionheads, or a couple of Riptides, it’ll probably survive a few turns.
Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I thought it was 100 +38 for the Railhead, 90+25 for the railside. Where does the 40+ difference come from?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I thought it was 100 +38 for the Railhead, 90+25 for the railside. Where does the 40+ difference come from?
Broadsides are 60 points base + weapons.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I thought it was 100 +38 for the Railhead, 90+25 for the railside. Where does the 40+ difference come from?
I was presuming the Hammerhead had the Rail and 2 SMS, whereas the Broadside had Rail and 2 SMS. Works out at 168 and 135 (so 33 points differences before additions.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 15:45:06
6 seekers with 5 markers. Hit on 2s reroll 1s will do 9 damage on average to a rhino. So it won't kill a rhino on average.
Against a leman russ those same 6 missile do 6 damage average. So only half killing a leman russ.
They have a real high potential for damage but I personally don't see it happening.
Maybe am not thinking of the right targets so please correct me if you have better experience.
No I guess you are kinda right – I wasn’t taking the -2ap into account.
That said, an Ionhead or Broadside don’t come anywhere close to the same damage to the Rhino, so, I dunno now!
That's fair. It takes an ionhead 2 turns to get the same damage
But after that they contribute more damage by not having one shot weapons. Idk I'd love to be wrong but hammerheads just seem more consistent to me. But I haven't played a skyrays in 5?? years I think
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
6 seekers with 5 markers. Hit on 2s reroll 1s will do 9 damage on average to a rhino. So it won't kill a rhino on average.
Against a leman russ those same 6 missile do 6 damage average. So only half killing a leman russ.
They have a real high potential for damage but I personally don't see it happening.
Maybe am not thinking of the right targets so please correct me if you have better experience.
No I guess you are kinda right – I wasn’t taking the -2ap into account.
That said, an Ionhead or Broadside don’t come anywhere close to the same damage to the Rhino, so, I dunno now!
That's fair. It takes an ionhead 2 turns to get the same damage
But after that they contribute more damage by not having one shot weapons. Idk I'd love to be wrong but hammerheads just seem more consistent to me. But I haven't played a skyrays in 5?? years I think
To my experience now many games don't go above turn 3/4 at most. So it could depend on the meta - if you have long games where people are defensive then hammerheads are better, but if your meta is all about those alpha strikes - delete half of an army- kind of games then perhaps a skyray is what you need most.
One thing is certain, with seekers being a one use only item, we really don't want to shoot them at anything with less than 5 markerlights - possibly also with focussed fire stratagem as well.
Can anyone explain how the Skyrays are good now? They were garbage with the index, with markerlights and seeker missiles as they were.. I thought nothing changed?
Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
Fueli wrote: Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
And to rub it into all the Space Marines players, they are 1 point cheaper as well... for some reason
Fueli wrote: Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
And to rub it into all the Space Marines players, they are 1 point cheaper as well... for some reason
Fueli wrote: Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
They can front load 6 shots hitting on 2s rerolling ones in the first turn, while out of LOS, which should be enough to down most tanks. After that, you can use them to charge enemy guns until they blow up.
Fueli wrote: Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
And to rub it into all the Space Marines players, they are 1 point cheaper as well... for some reason
It only hits on a 6
Until you get 2 markerlights on the target. As you're running markerlights anyway, it would hardly be considered a tax.
Fueli wrote: Seekers are now str8 ap -2 d6 Damage one-use missiles. Like hunter-killers of the Imperium. They have good damage potential, but they're not that efficient. Imo they are alright on other platforms than Skyray.
They can front load 6 shots hitting on 2s rerolling ones in the first turn, while out of LOS, which should be enough to down most tanks. After that, you can use them to charge enemy guns until they blow up.
Missiles require LoS unfortunately.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 17:58:18
I don't really like the idea of the Sky Ray at all.
1. The Sky Ray is a big investment in Markerlights. Sure, it's got 3 of its own, but it needs at least 2 hits and preferably 5 to do its work. Markerlights and Uplinked Markerlight are a scarce resource and the Sky Ray is likely taking some of them away from my other shooting.
2. Once it's fired its shots, it's just a small Markerlight source and a big point sink. It's a really limited purpose model that just feels bad if it didn't accomplish its purpose on turn 1, for whatever reason.
3. It's vulnerable. Sky Rays aren't hard to shoot off the board. This applies to Hammerheads and to some extent Broadsides too, and while I'm fairly comfortable taking multiple Broadsides and might even want multiple Ionheads, taking multiple Sky Rays sounds absolutely insane to me right now. Maybe someone else is going to run multiples and have great successes, but from my perspective, I can't even bring myself to take 1 Sky Ray much less 2 or 3.
4. I just don't like S8 AP-2 shooting. Like, at all. The main profiles I'm shooting at T7 3+ and T8 3+, and while I can at least wound the first profile reasonably well, they've still got a great chance to save. That said, the Ion Cannon isn't much better in this regard and I'm not totally sold on Railsides.
5. Stormsurges! I don't like the model that much, but the big boy seems pretty good right now.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I've done a bunch of calculations for how much damage various units do to T7 3+ save units. I picked this toughness because loads of things have it. I've ignored the damage from SMS and BCs, because I expect they'd be firing at something else. This throws off the efficiency calculations somewhat, as stuff like broadsides and hammerheads will be engaging other targets simultaneously. The battlesuit is assumed to be a Farsight sept guy using the +1 to hit stratagem. All Ion weapons are overcharging - and nova charging if possible.
EDIT, following corrected commander hit chance: So the most damage per point is achieved by Fusion Coldstar, and a non-coldstar commander would be even better. Just behind that are suits and commanders with CIBs. I think I rate these ahead of fusion personally, because they are just as powerful against targets with invulnerable saves - like flyrants and daemon primarchs. There's still probably a strong case for running a fusion commander though, especially if you give it the Tau relic that lets it run away after shooting. The CIB suits are cool but very fragile, whcih makes them harder to fit into a list.
The next bracket, around 45 points per wound caused, are riptides and ghostkeels with fusion blasters, and ionheads. I think the ionhead stands out here because it does its thing at 60" range. It also isn't that much less effective vs stuff with invulnerable saves, while the fusion blasters feel a bit wasted on stuff like hive tyrants.
Broadsides come out surprisingly badly. I was quite surprised that the HRR broadside does more damage than the HYMP, but it's nothing amazing. Given that you can get more efficient, tougher platforms that fly instead, I'm not sure there's much of a case for taking broadsides.
The railside is complete trash, sad to say. If you let it fire twice there'd still be more efficient options - even against targets with no invulnerable save.
I've added in riptides with SMS, because I think that's likely to be a good option. It doesn't do much for the thing's efficiency against tanks but it can shoot up infantry and can live at 30" instead of 18, which should help a lot.
I then looked at applying some buffs. I gave everyone reroll 1s to hit, which is easy enough to get hold of (and kind of essential for Ion stuff). I gave units the effect of the Tau focused fire stratagem, if they could take it, because I'm interested in running Tau myself. And I tried out a CNC node on the CIB suits to try and calculate if it's worth doing that instead of just having the commander shoot. I've also added an ATS to the HYMP broadside. The hammerheads are near Longstrike, because why would you not take longstrike if running hammerheads?
The effect is very significant for most units, typically increasing damage caused by around 50%. That's pretty cool I think, and makes a strong case for the Tau sept and its stratagem.
CIB suits still look very strong. They haven't been buffed by focused fire, but then their owner would have saved 3CPs (and spent 2 to give them +1 to hit). You could argue that I should include the price of drones to keep them alive in their cost, but as those drones will either be gunning things down or markerlighting stuff themselves, that doesn't seem necessary.
It looks hard to justify the CNC node. It's only really worthwhile on a big unit of suits, and putting all of those points into one unit of fragile guys seems a bit too risky to me.
There are some pretty respectable results from ghostkeels and riptides. These are interesting because they are both durable and hard to shut down - as they fly. I think that a ghostkeel with CIR, 2x fusion, target lock and shield generator makes an excellent midfield unit, which is something Tau really need. They are perfect for coldstar commanders to scoot behind as well. If they stick close together then charging Tau sept ones will be no fun at all.
Ionheads really are great. You can boost their effectiveness even further by adding a couple of seeker missiles - which seem worth it if you're running Longstrike with them. The opening volley from these would be devastating, and not drop off all that much afterwards.
I hope that's useful. And I hope I haven't messed anything up!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 22:45:39
the advantage of the skyray is certainly the alpha. Afterwards its not a target worth shooting for the other player. Points spent on it are spent for the chance to nuke something early, and then afterwards a semi-reliable marketlight source.
PERHAPS stick SMS on it for harassment, but mostly just use it to slightly buff the shooting on the table that isnt alpha. Its vulnerabiility is offset by the fact that once its goes off, its not worth killing anymore.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Razerous wrote: Can anyone explain how the Skyrays are good now? They were garbage with the index, with markerlights and seeker missiles as they were.. I thought nothing changed?
Seekers are better now, and Skyrays and Hammerheads are the only vehicles with 3+ BS, so they're the best platform for the Seekers, assuming you boost them to 2+ with Markerlights. That doesn't make them 'good', however, I'd still rather just take Hammerheads and bolt on Seeker Missiles.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I've done a bunch of calculations for how much damage various units do to T7 3+ save units. I picked this toughness because loads of things have it. I've ignored the damage from SMS and BCs, because I expect they'd be firing at something else. This throws off the efficiency calculations somewhat, as stuff like broadsides and hammerheads will be engaging other targets simultaneously. The battlesuit is assumed to be a Farsight sept guy using the +1 to hit stratagem. All Ion weapons are overcharging - and nova charging if possible.
So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.
The next bracket, around 45 points per wound caused, are riptides and ghostkeels with fusion blasters, and ionheads. I think the ionhead stands out here because it does its thing at 60" range. It also isn't that much less effective vs stuff with invulnerable saves, while the fusion blasters feel a bit wasted on stuff like hive tyrants.
Broadsides come out surprisingly badly. I was quite surprised that the HRR broadside does more damage than the HYMP, but it's nothing amazing. Given that you can get more efficient, tougher platforms that fly instead, I'm not sure there's much of a case for taking broadsides.
The railside is complete trash, sad to say. If you let it fire twice there'd still be more efficient options - even against targets with no invulnerable save.
I've added in riptides with SMS, because I think that's likely to be a good option. It doesn't do much for the thing's efficiency against tanks but it can shoot up infantry and can live at 30" instead of 18, which should help a lot.
I then looked at applying some buffs. I gave everyone reroll 1s to hit, which is easy enough to get hold of (and kind of essential for Ion stuff). I gave units the effect of the Tau focused fire stratagem, if they could take it, because I'm interested in running Tau myself. And I tried out a CNC node on the CIB suits to try and calculate if it's worth doing that instead of just having the commander shoot. I've also added an ATS to the HYMP broadside. The hammerheads are near Longstrike, because why would you not take longstrike if running hammerheads?
The effect is very significant for most units, typically increasing damage caused by around 50%. That's pretty cool I think, and makes a strong case for the Tau sept and its stratagem.
CIB suits still look very strong. They haven't been buffed by focused fire, but then their owner would have saved 3CPs (and spent 2 to give them +1 to hit). You could argue that I should include the price of drones to keep them alive in their cost, but as those drones will either be gunning things down or markerlighting stuff themselves, that doesn't seem necessary.
It looks hard to justify the CNC node. It's only really worthwhile on a big unit of suits, and putting all of those points into one unit of fragile guys seems a bit too risky to me.
There are some pretty respectable results from ghostkeels and riptides. These are interesting because they are both durable and hard to shut down - as they fly. I think that a ghostkeel with CIR, 2x fusion, target lock and shield generator makes an excellent midfield unit, which is something Tau really need. They are perfect for coldstar commanders to scoot behind as well. If they stick close together then charging Tau sept ones will be no fun at all.
Ionheads really are great. You can boost their effectiveness even further by adding a couple of seeker missiles - which seem worth it if you're running Longstrike with them. The opening volley from these would be devastating, and not drop off all that much afterwards.
I hope that's useful. And I hope I haven't messed anything up!
This is a really great post. It was clear CIBs had improved a whole lot, but seeing it laid out like this really drives home just how much better they are now. If only we had a reasonable source of official models for these guns!
It also drives home just how efficient the HBC Riptide is now. Check out just how competitive it is with an IA riptide firing at one of the most common vehicle profiles.
This is a really great post. It was clear CIBs had improved a whole lot, but seeing it laid out like this really drives home just how much better they are now. If only we had a reasonable source of official models for these guns!
I boggles my mind that Forge World isn't selling resin CIBs by the forklift load. Someone at GW thinks they'll sell Commander kits just to get the CIB, maybe?
Broadsides always look bad in these analyses because they spend points on a personnel weapon that is being calculated in a role it is rarely used for.
In other words, only 50% or so of the Broadsides points should be used to determine his anti-vehicle efficiency. The rest is being spent for anti-personnel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 18:34:56
One of the other points to make with SMS carriers (heh) like Broadsides and Riptides is that indirect fire is really quite important in some contexts. If you're playing with lots of LOS blocking terrain, especially things like LOS blocking first-floor ruins, indirect fire is a big deal when it comes to gunning units off objectives or freeing the way for your own units to hold objectives.
I suppose the question in regards to the Skyray is - how many Markerlights is too many, and how many is "ideal"?
As it stands, i can see a list forming that has 22 MLs giving me an average of 15.5 hits first turn... if going first... (And before stratagems)
These are backed up by a Ghostkeel, 2 Riptides, 2 Broadsides, a Skyray and then a fair chunk of other stuff. The question is - would you consider that too much investment?
(just did the calc vs Mortarian.... all that costing ~1350 points would only do ~15 wounds on average to Morty, not counting SMS and Burst Cannon damage... my idea suddenly feels inadequate )
Hmm, I don't think it is just the number of markerlights in your army but how they are spread out as well. For example, if your makerlights are all in pathfinder squads, they could easily be lost. 22 markerlights does seem a tad bit overkill though.
When you calculated the 15.5 hits, did you take into account the benefits of the markerlights that would already be on a target, for example rerolling ones?
This is a really great post. It was clear CIBs had improved a whole lot, but seeing it laid out like this really drives home just how much better they are now. If only we had a reasonable source of official models for these guns!
I boggles my mind that Forge World isn't selling resin CIBs by the forklift load. Someone at GW thinks they'll sell Commander kits just to get the CIB, maybe?
Thanks.
And yes, the difficulty of getting official CIBs is a major pain. I've got this idea of making crisis suits holding a single gun a little bit like a cyclic ion raker in both hands, but so far haven't made any sort of a start on actually building them. Luckily the airbursting frag projector is pretty bad, or I'd have to work out how to make some of those as well.
A slight health warning on the HBC riptide is that a big proportion of both versions' damage is the fusion blasters. I'm not really sure that HBC and fusion is a sensible load-out for a riptide. It's probably better off chilling out far away.
I've been quite sparing with the ATS, which is now a very pricey upgrade. I've given it to the HBC riptides and the buffed version of the HYMP broadside. It does help a lot against my T7 3+ target, but is useless if it has an invulnerable. I think it's a good option on the riptide but I'm not convinced at all by the broadsides.
Ghostkeels don't need it, in my opinion. The CIR GK does similar damage to the fusion collider one. I really think these could be good units for midfield control.
I do hear what people are saying on the value of the SMS, and how it distorts these calculations. I haven't included them at all, on the basis that they ought to be firing elsewhere. But it's kind of impossible to calculate the effect of them doing that. Even with an ATS you only cause 1 wound to MEQs with two SMSs.
I might need to run the calculations for suits with missile pods and fusion blasters. They'd be very expensive, so I'm pretty sure they are bad, but it never hurts to know for sure.
Burst cannon suits might even not be rubbish now. 66 points for 24 shots seems pretty good. In theory it's not as good as what fire warriors can do, but in practice the suits are very good at bringing that shooting to where it's needed.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Next big question: Railsides or missilesides? Honestly it's kind of hard to justify the cost of either. A railside does the same kind of shooting -more or less- as a hive guard only it costs waaaay more. On the other hand, hive guard shooting is great shooting. Missilesides are kind of weird. Lots of shots but the profile is pretty meh. Basically 2 autocannons each.
Not entirely sold on either to be honest. They pretty much cost the same as a hammerhead, without the added survivability or mobility. What are people's takes on the broadsides?
A railside is 40 points cheaper than a Rail Hammerhead – and that’s including Velocity tracker. Without the tracker, it is 50 points cheaper than the Hammerhead, if you don’t add in drones. The Heavy Rail Rifle also has 2 shots, over the Hammerheads 1. Again though, it requires markerlight support imo, but will put out more dmg than the Hammerhead throughout the game.
I've done a bunch of calculations for how much damage various units do to T7 3+ save units. I picked this toughness because loads of things have it. I've ignored the damage from SMS and BCs, because I expect they'd be firing at something else. This throws off the efficiency calculations somewhat, as stuff like broadsides and hammerheads will be engaging other targets simultaneously. The battlesuit is assumed to be a Farsight sept guy using the +1 to hit stratagem. All Ion weapons are overcharging - and nova charging if possible.
So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.
This is awesome! Are you able to do the maths on CIB suits without the +1 to hit from FSE, and also pathfinders with ion rifles now that they have Damage 2 (I have a feeling the pathfinders might be right near the top).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 19:31:36
TerminusEst wrote: Hmm, I don't think it is just the number of markerlights in your army but how they are spread out as well. For example, if your makerlights are all in pathfinder squads, they could easily be lost. 22 markerlights does seem a tad bit overkill though.
When you calculated the 15.5 hits, did you take into account the benefits of the markerlights that would already be on a target, for example rerolling ones?
Yeah, added in the re-rolling 1's for the majority of the markerlights.
Disposition has 13 coming from 3 units of marker drones, 6 characters, 2 on the skyray and 1 in a unit cos of points. Fully expecting the drones to get targeted still gives me 9 markerlights and a very strong chance of getting stacks of 5 on 2 units with stratagems.
I could swap sacrifice 3 markerlights for a XV84 Commander (so i drop 2 in total - which is prob a better idea)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/12 19:58:11
This is awesome! Are you able to do the maths on CIB suits without the +1 to hit from FSE, and also pathfinders with ion rifles now that they have Damage 2 (I have a feeling the pathfinders might be right near the top).
The points per wound for a CIB crisis suit would be 32 whilst a five man pathfinder team with three ion rifles would be 26 (If I have done my maths right!).
However, the pathfinders' shots are more random as they are D3 as opposed to the 3 shots of the CIB and the Crisis suits are definitely more durable.
(just did the calc vs Mortarian.... all that costing ~1350 points would only do ~15 wounds on average to Morty, not counting SMS and Burst Cannon damage... my idea suddenly feels inadequate )
I think the problem here is Mortarion's invun save, you would do much better with a single Stormsurge against Mortation, simply due to the four destroyer missiles which, with 5 marker lights and stability anchors, have a good chance of all hitting and putting an average of 8 wounds on him. If all the other weapons also fired, I calculated that the Stormsurge could put around 17 wounds on Morty
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 20:43:30
3 skyrays shooting 18 missiles should completely decimate anything they want, including mortarions or other bad things. Do they still have networked markerlights?
14000
15000
4000 
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
