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Mandragola wrote:

So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.

I don't understand how you're getting this. I don't have new points in front of me but my understanding is that not much changed for suits. I get the same number you did for FSE CIB suits, but I get 22.2 ppw for CIB Commanders. Just real quick: regardless of profile, the regular (BS3+) suit gets 3/4 as many shots at 4/5 the chance to hit, so the Commander's points divided by the regular suit's points times 0.6 should get you the relative efficiency of the regular suit. For CIBs the regular suit is 92.5% as efficient as the Commander.

How do people feel about stealth suits and how would you run them? I personally always loved the model

I liked stealth suits in the index and I like them now too. I run min squads every once in a while I throw a fusion blaster in there. I think vior'la could be good so you can keep them mobile. I plan to use them as forward screens for my coldstars.

Do you think 4 squads of 3 is too much? 1 fusion in each?

No I think that would be fine. So long as you have a good amount of other things to support

It really depends on how many points you are playing and what is in the rest of your army. In a friendly 2000 point game, I think 4 squads of three would be fine. The thing I find with stealth suits is, although they are quite durable, they don't have the highest damage output so you might need to bring some big guns alongside them.

I assume drones will get the benefit of sept tenants?

They appear to have gained manta drop as a rule which makes sense and is a nice addition.

Yeah I'll run 2000 points with a mix of fast aggressive units ghostkeel commander and cold star, then a gunline for support 2 broadsides hammerhead and fire warriors

Since the drones have the sept keyword in the index (and I am assuming they do in the codex), they will get the benefits of the tenets.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.

I don't understand how you're getting this. I don't have new points in front of me but my understanding is that not much changed for suits. I get the same number you did for FSE CIB suits, but I get 22.2 ppw for CIB Commanders. Just real quick: regardless of profile, the regular (BS3+) suit gets 3/4 as many shots at 4/5 the chance to hit, so the Commander's points divided by the regular suit's points times 0.6 should get you the relative efficiency of the regular suit. For CIBs the regular suit is 92.5% as efficient as the Commander.

I'm talking about Coldstar commanders - which I realise I never said. Normal commanders would be more efficient.

More importantly, I'd put in the wrong chance to hit for unbuffed commanders. That's where the main error was. Sorry - there was a lot of data and this mistake got through. These are the full stats for CIB suits and coldstar commanders. Do check if right.



The "wounds" column is the average wounds per hit, while the "wounds c(aused)" column is the result of multiplying all the previous ones together. Then points/wound is the model's cost, divided by wounds caused.

I'll correct my original post with these numbers. Thanks for the catch. Non-coldstar commanders will be marginally more efficient than even suit squads - with the added bonus of not needing CPs to activate and being hard to pick out. Coldstars will be epically fast. Continue buying commanders, essentially.

Mandragola wrote:

 meleti wrote:

This is a really great post. It was clear CIBs had improved a whole lot, but seeing it laid out like this really drives home just how much better they are now. If only we had a reasonable source of official models for these guns!

A slight health warning on the HBC riptide is that a big proportion of both versions' damage is the fusion blasters. I'm not really sure that HBC and fusion is a sensible load-out for a riptide. It's probably better off chilling out far away.

I've been quite sparing with the ATS, which is now a very pricey upgrade. I've given it to the HBC riptides and the buffed version of the HYMP broadside. It does help a lot against my T7 3+ target, but is useless if it has an invulnerable. I think it's a good option on the riptide but I'm not convinced at all by the broadsides..

So as long as both suits are running blasters, they're both benefiting equally from them and they won't skew the comparison at all. I'd still say the key takeaway here is that the IA is only slightly better (if at all) at shooting one of the more important IA target profiles. The gap is going to even smaller on T8 3+ (Exocrines, Lemans, Knights, etc.). I'm feeling pretty good at HBC tides, or maybe pretty bad about IA tides.

You're probably right about HBC/FB being a fairly rare profile, but I think I'd often prefer SMS on both tides because I do value that indirect fire (and delegate primary anti-tank roles to Commanders).

Mandragola wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.

I don't understand how you're getting this. I don't have new points in front of me but my understanding is that not much changed for suits. I get the same number you did for FSE CIB suits, but I get 22.2 ppw for CIB Commanders. Just real quick: regardless of profile, the regular (BS3+) suit gets 3/4 as many shots at 4/5 the chance to hit, so the Commander's points divided by the regular suit's points times 0.6 should get you the relative efficiency of the regular suit. For CIBs the regular suit is 92.5% as efficient as the Commander.

I'm talking about Coldstar commanders - which I realise I never said. Normal commanders would be more efficient.

More importantly, I'd put in the wrong chance to hit for unbuffed commanders. That's where the main error was. Sorry - there was a lot of data and this mistake got through. These are the full stats for CIB suits and coldstar commanders. Do check if right.



The "wounds" column is the average wounds per hit, while the "wounds c(aused)" column is the result of multiplying all the previous ones together. Then points/wound is the model's cost, divided by wounds caused.

I'll correct my original post with these numbers. Thanks for the catch. Non-coldstar commanders will be marginally more efficient than even suit squads - with the added bonus of not needing CPs to activate and being hard to pick out. Coldstars will be epically fast. Continue buying commanders, essentially.

Can coldstar commanders take CIB?

Why are suits hitting on a 3+? If you are giving them ML support, you absolutely have to factor that into their point cost.

Mandragola wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

So the most damage per point is achieved by CIB suits. They are actually a long way ahead of the next best option - Fusion commanders - with CIB commanders not far behind. This is interesting because people seem to think suits are really bad, but their damage is actually exceptional. To be fair, this might be because CIBs got a significant buff in the codex, added to the effect of the Farsight stratagem. In fact these guys are so strong that they look totally viable for non-farsight septs - who get the added benefit of saving CPs. Even with the 25% reduction in damage they'd still be the most efficient unit.

I don't understand how you're getting this. I don't have new points in front of me but my understanding is that not much changed for suits. I get the same number you did for FSE CIB suits, but I get 22.2 ppw for CIB Commanders. Just real quick: regardless of profile, the regular (BS3+) suit gets 3/4 as many shots at 4/5 the chance to hit, so the Commander's points divided by the regular suit's points times 0.6 should get you the relative efficiency of the regular suit. For CIBs the regular suit is 92.5% as efficient as the Commander.

I'm talking about Coldstar commanders - which I realise I never said. Normal commanders would be more efficient.

More importantly, I'd put in the wrong chance to hit for unbuffed commanders. That's where the main error was. Sorry - there was a lot of data and this mistake got through. These are the full stats for CIB suits and coldstar commanders. Do check if right.



The "wounds" column is the average wounds per hit, while the "wounds c(aused)" column is the result of multiplying all the previous ones together. Then points/wound is the model's cost, divided by wounds caused.

I'll correct my original post with these numbers. Thanks for the catch. Non-coldstar commanders will be marginally more efficient than even suit squads - with the added bonus of not needing CPs to activate and being hard to pick out. Coldstars will be epically fast. Continue buying commanders, essentially.

crisis hit on 4+ = 0.5

xmbk wrote:
Why are suits hitting on a 3+? If you are giving them ML support, you absolutely have to factor that into their point cost.

FSE suits hit on 3+ with manta strike stratagem.

With markerlights they can get down to hitting on 2's rerolling ones ignoring cover, AKA nasty they stand good chance of alpha striking down anything if you throw down a large group just sucks that they are squishy for the points cost

Yeah the CIB suits I mention are hitting on a 3+ using manta strike stratagem. It does say that in the original post on the previous page. I don't give the buffed ones the benefit of Focused fire, because they aren't from the Tau sept.

To be honest, Coldstar commanders just seem like a better option. From everything we've heard, they ought to be able to take CIBs. Indeed, it would be kind of weird if the one model that actually came with them couldn't have them. I just wish I could put them on my ghostkeels too.

Coldstars are also way better at staying alive than normal crisis suits.

So the question becomes: How can we have a lot of commanders? Answer: by having several battalions, and maybe the occasional vanguard detachment.

Here's a vague idea of what that might look like. I'm not sure whether to go for the devilfish or not, but they've let me keep down to 12 drops, which might mean occasionally going first. Comes to 2k.

It's short on markerlights, which is an issue. I'd prefer drones but there's nobody obvious to give a DC to. One option would be to swap the riptide and pathfinders for another ghostkeel with a DC rather than a shield generator. Thinking about it, marker drones are a lot better now that they can deep strike - which keeps them from being shot away before they can do anything. I'll see if I can make that work instead.

Tau Battalion

Coldstar Commander 174
4 Fusion Blasters
Vectored Manoeuvering Thrusters

Cadre Fireblade 42
Markerlight

5 Fire Warriors 35

6 Fire Warriors 42

Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones

10 Kroot 50

Tau Battalion

Coldstar Commander 162
4 Cyclic Ion Blasters

Darkstrider 45

5 Fire Warriors 35

6 Fire Warriors 42

Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones

10 Kroot 50

Tau Battalion

Coldstar Commander 162
4 Cyclic Ion Blasters

Ghostkeel 203
Cyclic Ion Raker
2 Fusion Blasters
Shield Generator
Target Lock
2 Stealth Drones

Ghostkeel 203
Cyclic Ion Raker
2 Fusion Blasters
Shield Generator
Target Lock
2 Stealth Drones

Ghostkeel 203
Cyclic Ion Raker
2 Fusion Blasters
Shield Generator
Target Lock
2 Stealth Drones

Riptide 280
Heavy Burst Cannon
2x SMS
Target Lock
ATS

6 Pathfinders 48

If you guys want to see some silly cost efficient damage, start doing the math on Ion rifle pathfinders, FYI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The JSJ on a fusion commander isn't bad, but we can probably get more mileage out of using it on a CIB commander. Skirting at 18" and getting 6" means we can easily fire on a target then get behind another unit, or out of LOS. 9" to get the juicy double tap range that really pushes the fusion ahead of the CIB in efficiency puts them so close that 6" isn't going to give them a lot of breathing room vs a lot of enemy forces.

For that reason, I can see a lot of T'au and Dal'yth paired CIB commanders. Both can get JSJ (Relic and stratagem), with a third fusion commander who can dive into enemy lines and kamikaze 1-2 high value targets. You don't always have to kill a target to make it worth it, sometimes you just gotta knock it down a profile or two.

Ion rifle pathfinders get an average of 6 shots. 3 of those should hit, 2 should wound and one should get past a 3+ armour save, doing an average of 2 damage. They cost 52 points for the unit, so that’s 26 points per damage. There are also two spare guys landing markerlight hits. That’s pretty good – up there with the commanders and CIB suits.

There are downsides though. They aren’t mobile, their range isn’t great and they are incredibly fragile – with guardsman profiles. There’s also the issue that you end up with an awful lot of drops.

However, tidewalls exist. I wonder if it’s efficient to put pathfinders on a tidewall thing. This could be a good way to keep markerlights in relative safety. You could get a shieldline with a defence platform and put a unit of pathfinders in each – perhaps along with a couple of characters to reduce your drop count.

A major downside of fortifications is that they take up a detachment, which means having fewer commanders. It would be a pretty strong option if you were going for a brigade though.

I think you’re probably right about JSJ being better on a CIB commander. In fact I’m not really sure there’s much point taking a fusion commander when the CIB option exists. Other stuff – like ghostkeels – can take fusion blasters, and they are a lot happier being up close than the commander is. My thinking on the fusion commander was that JSJ might help him nuke something and then run away behind a ghostkeel.

A slightly cheeky trick seems possible with JSJ, as it happens immediately after the guy fires. So you could have him move to spread the effect of auras, like the one from Through Unity Devastation. Alternatively you could just make a fireblade your warlord – which would have the added benefit of not needing to keep the commanders quite so safe. CIB commanders will tend to hurt themselves quite often, even with markerlight support.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: A coldstar commander isn't allowed a CIB after all. I watched some of a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuztP8Alo4A) and it showed the list of weapons. There's a little asterisk thing saying no CIBs for coldstar commanders - though he can heve everything else.

So basically take fusion on coldstars and CIBs on normal commanders. It's kind of not that big a problem for a CIB commander to have to stick around other units.

The XV8 commander has 5 wounds and can take Iridium. He might actually be a better option than the big guy anyway. It's kind of a toss-up I think, though the extra wound and lower cost (without iridium) probably swings things in favour of the enforcer, for me.

Also if you're going to watch that video, you might want to turn the sound down. The guy doing the review is infuriatingly uninformed. He doesn't understand about support systems so he complains that all the big suits can't move and shoot. He barely shows the support systems list, but it certainly seems like ghostkeels can have shield generators - which I'd been a bit suspicious of. It's a really great upgrade for them so I'm a bit surprised they are getting it for so cheap - especially when the model doesn't have one.

ballzonya wrote:
Do you think 4 squads of 3 is too much? 1 fusion in each?

So.. unless they removed the infantry keyword from them, the Viorla Hot blooded stratagem to shoot 2ce at nearest unit with 6 stealth suits with burst cannons and or 1 or 2 fusion blasters, possibly some markerlight support, possibly some ats, possibly some multi-tracker, that is a prodigious amount of high-risk, high-reward dakka.

With the index I would often out multi trackers on stealth suits. For 2 points to reroll ones was fine. Now for 10 points and only against units with 5 or more. I really don't think it's worth it.

The only support system I'd give to stealths now is a drone controller or velocity tracker. The others are to expensive or just not useful imo.

 FirePainter wrote:
With the index I would often out multi trackers on stealth suits. For 2 points to reroll ones was fine. Now for 10 points and only against units with 5 or more. I really don't think it's worth it.

The only support system I'd give to stealths now is a drone controller or velocity tracker. The others are to expensive or just not useful imo.

To be fair, 6 suits with burst cannons shooting 2ce are likely shooting at more than 5 models, but that's fair and worthwhile point.

 FirePainter wrote:
With the index I would often out multi trackers on stealth suits. For 2 points to reroll ones was fine. Now for 10 points and only against units with 5 or more. I really don't think it's worth it.

The only support system I'd give to stealths now is a drone controller or velocity tracker. The others are to expensive or just not useful imo.

I'm a big fan of the Advanced Targeting System personally. Getting a bonus to your AP value is nice.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
With the index I would often out multi trackers on stealth suits. For 2 points to reroll ones was fine. Now for 10 points and only against units with 5 or more. I really don't think it's worth it.

The only support system I'd give to stealths now is a drone controller or velocity tracker. The others are to expensive or just not useful imo.

I'm a big fan of the Advanced Targeting System personally. Getting a bonus to your AP value is nice.

Yeah I agree the bonus AP with the volume stealths can put out is nice. It is only 2 points more than index. I'll give it a try at some point I'm sure. Maybe after the glamour of triple tapping fire warriors @ 21" wears off.

Interestingly, Fire Warriors compare well to that list against T7 3+ targets. Inside of RF range and unbuffed they're in the 40 pts/wnd range which isn't great, add in rerolling 1's TH and they drop down to about 36/W. and if you toss on the +1 to W strat they jump to the low 20's. Obviously that's at close range, which is limits their target selection, but as a secondary source of AT for mid-board targets they're excellent.

(Outside of RF range they're more like 110 pts/W, but hey, basic infantry, I'll live with it),

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Interestingly, Fire Warriors compare well to that list against T7 3+ targets. Inside of RF range and unbuffed they're in the 40 pts/wnd range which isn't great, add in rerolling 1's TH and they drop down to about 36/W. and if you toss on the +1 to W strat they jump to the low 20's. Obviously that's at close range, which is limits their target selection, but as a secondary source of AT for mid-board targets they're excellent.

(Outside of RF range they're more like 110 pts/W, but hey, basic infantry, I'll live with it),

That's an interesting one. Triple-tapping fire warriors with a couple of buffs do actually become pretty effective. Give them focused fire and rerolls to wound and it's 24ppw.

That's still only 1 wound for every 3 fire warriors shooting, and not including the cost of the fireblade, but it's something. If breachers can get within 6" they are at 31.5 ppw even before any buffs.

Mandragola wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Interestingly, Fire Warriors compare well to that list against T7 3+ targets. Inside of RF range and unbuffed they're in the 40 pts/wnd range which isn't great, add in rerolling 1's TH and they drop down to about 36/W. and if you toss on the +1 to W strat they jump to the low 20's. Obviously that's at close range, which is limits their target selection, but as a secondary source of AT for mid-board targets they're excellent.

(Outside of RF range they're more like 110 pts/W, but hey, basic infantry, I'll live with it),

That's an interesting one. Triple-tapping fire warriors with a couple of buffs do actually become pretty effective. Give them focused fire and rerolls to wound and it's 24ppw.

That's still only 1 wound for every 3 fire warriors shooting, and not including the cost of the fireblade, but it's something. If breachers can get within 6" they are at 31.5 ppw even before any buffs.

The best thing about Breachers is that they're good without the buffs. Your characters can't be everywhere, so having units that don't need auras and whatnot is useful. Getting within 6" is obviously the tough part of course - probably the unit's main drawback. The Fire Warriors can pump out that damage at 18" or even 21" depending on buffs, and that range is a key part of how useful they look to be. I can see space and a role for both, in the case of Breachers maybe in Devilfish.

Mandragola wrote:

However, tidewalls exist. I wonder if it’s efficient to put pathfinders on a tidewall thing. This could be a good way to keep markerlights in relative safety. You could get a shieldline with a defence platform and put a unit of pathfinders in each – perhaps along with a couple of characters to reduce your drop count.

A Droneport w/ Markerlight Drones and a Cadre Fireblade make for some nice reliable Markerlights. Putting Pathfinders inside it might make it too much of a target, but I guess it depends on your overall composition. I'm going to try it anyways, because I love the look of the Tidewall stuff.

A major downside of fortifications is that they take up a detachment, which means having fewer commanders. It would be a pretty strong option if you were going for a brigade though.

I think 2 Commanders is probably enough, and I favor the Brigade option anyways.

Geoff (incontrol) did a (slightly) more competitively minded review of the Tau codex and a lot of his comments were funny.

"Like why is the onager limited to 1 attack? What are GW afraid of?" Or "why is the railgun not heavy D3"

https://youtu.be/RuztP8Alo4A

where?