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CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/24 20:27:48
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Razerous wrote: What's the chance of the y'vahra getting cheaper?
How much did the riptide drop (as HBC/IA)
If anything the Y'vahra will be hit by the nerf hammer. Hard.
I think changing the damage of both weapons from 3 to d3 or 2 (EMP cannon thing is only 3 on nova charge IIRC, otherwise it's just 1) ought to do the trick. Wouldn't want to see it overnerfed, I thought it's as expensive as a Stormsurge pointswise?
Yeah its like just over 400 points with support systems, so its really expensive. Which is why it would be a bummer if they actually did nerf it
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
You are incorrect. Marker drones already include marker light for 10 points total.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/24 20:48:26
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
Worse, in the enhanced edition book it says the cost of drones (and named characters) doesn’t include wargear. Most confusing.
It does mean that things like missile drones kind of need to be considered. 20 points isn’t much.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
Worse, in the enhanced edition book it says the cost of drones (and named characters) doesn’t include wargear. Most confusing.
It does mean that things like missile drones kind of need to be considered. 20 points isn’t much.
And recon drones, which are basically 2 gun drones for the price of one.
Wonder if that will be charged in the FAQ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 00:32:16
Alright - name me a couple of top/good tier lists (netlists, whatever) that have been doing well generally.
The broad strokes, either at 1500/2000pts.
Then.. I'm curious to how we can field parallels (Assumption; Primaris inceptors are great, so how do... stealth suits or crisis suits compare? Of course I appreciate inceptors are probably not must have picks but the principle remains).
Pandabeer wrote: Going to assemble 6 Stealth Suits soon, 2 with FB or full dakka with BC?
I am hoping to try a vanguard with 3 units. 2 3 man with only burst and 1 6 man with 2 fusions. I'll also be running the fusion suits with velocity trackers. For 2 points I think it's the best upgrade for them.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
Outrider, Sa'ces Sept
Ethereal (Warlord; Through Unity, Devastation)
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Devilfish
Devilfish
__530pts__
What's it good at? Well...
1) dropping 12d3 overcharged ion shots on your preferred target, ignoring cover.
2) facetanking alphastrike with your devilfish, saving your puny lil pathfinders from getting vaporised 1st turn.
3) 2 devilfish to charge upfield and CC units that don't want to be CC'd and be general nusances
4) 8 ablative drone wounds to soak up trouble when they deploy
5) 6++ the first round, and reroll 1s the second
6) Only 2 drops.
7) Ethereal lights up the target and turns some of those ion shots to -2ap
I know it's expensive, and relies on markerlights to be effective, but my goodness it's quite dangerous. It'll kill 7 primaris a turn, or drop a predator. Is it stupid or awesome - you tell me.
I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
1. Hammerheads are simply Superior to Broadsides, in my opinion. That's particularly true if you have Longstrike around. I'd switch the Broadsides out for Ionheads.
2. I know the ATT guys are gaga over putting marker lights in Fire Warrior units, but I'm not a fan. You'll have enough protected markers from your Fireblades and Marksmen, and you presumably want that Warrior using his pulse rifle most of the time. I don't think it's an awful way to spend points, but traditional market sources are better, in my opinion.
3. Why not have 2 additional Tau Battalions, or at least 1? You already have extra HQs and full troops units, so just rearrange the units some for an extra 3 CP. It's not like creating more small units is going to hurt you. You'll still hemorrhage VP in kill points missions, either way.
4. Shield drones are 10 pts apiece, not 8.
5. What's up with people putting burst cannons on Hammerheads? I know it's cheap that way, but SMS, man!
Agreed on the above. I think the points calculation for the hammerheads is out as well. They are 161 with ion cannon, 2 BCs and 2 seekers. I suggest you go back and check all your calculations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 11:19:07
Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
Can the commander deep strike and use his master of war ability? I thought he couldn't - did that wording change?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 14:29:42
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I saw an interesting idea over on ATT involving dual Brigades in 2000pts, and I like it a lot. I figured I'd raise the issue you here for you gents to ponder. Basically, the concept (as I see it, at least) is to run a bare-bones Sa'cea Brigade for marker support (and the 9 CP) plus a Tau Brigade for 21 CP. Spam marker strats and Focus Fire ad nauseam for the first couple turns until the big baddies are gone.
If you really wanted to go nuts, you could splash in a Tau Battalion, too which would net you an extra Commander but would definitely cut down on list flexibility a fair bit. I'm not sure you need more than 21 CP, anyway, since even with a die reroll, focus fire, and both marker strats, you're only burning 7 per turn. Maybe it's worth the extra CP? I dunno, I'll have to play around with a list to figure out whether that many Fire Warriors instead of big daddy suits is worthwhile.
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
Can the commander deep strike and use his master of war ability? I thought he couldn't - did that wording change?
Oh yeah of course - no he can't. And of course the pathfinders aren't there at the start of the turn to be affected anyway - as they are inside the devilfishes.
So much for that! Honestly I find kauyon and montka both pretty hard to use effectively. The best option I can think of is to set up shadowsun with a broadside team and other heavy stuff. She can call kauyon twice and use CNC node on the broadsides. Even that feels like kind of a waste of a slot that could contain a fusion coldstar or a CIB X85.
Without much dedicated anti-vehicle stuff, I worry some about the army will struggle against hard targets. Focused Fire will help that issue, and dropping the Commanders on big stuff is, of course, an option. I just don't know if you could reliably take down several vehicles in a turn, even with FF on. Math tells me that you need about 90-ish pulse rifle shots to take down a Razorback with FF and 5 markers, so that's doable with 60 FW, I suppose. You could probably count on downing 3 normal vehicles per turn, assuming average dice and full strat and marker support. Is that enough if your opponent spams them? Not sure. Lots of high armor is also an issue. There's not a whole lot of multi-shot AP. Hordes are no problem. Focus Fire will clean out large chaff units in a hurry if you need a little help, but I'd imagine most things will wither to your triple-tap pulse rifles without much issue. Marker light splashing will also help a bunch.
Durability is a problem since the Riptide is really the only big, scary unit. It'll be damn hard to remove, though, thanks to branched nova charge and repairing and stims and whatnot. Yay for tons of CP, I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 19:32:32
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
You'll have to wait 6 months or so for me to build and paint it all, I'm just sounding things out before I commit.
GAH! I feel you man. I just painted the first 5 of my 60 firewarriors. They are looking pretty good (painting tau sept) but man - this is a task man!
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
You'll have to wait 6 months or so for me to build and paint it all, I'm just sounding things out before I commit.
GAH! I feel you man. I just painted the first 5 of my 60 firewarriors. They are looking pretty good (painting tau sept) but man - this is a task man!
I’ve got 12 of them nearly done. I’m planning on using somewhere between 12 and 72...
I’m a bit concerned about fire warrior spam. They seem a lot like glass hammers to me. Glass hammer lists really want to go first, but spamming loads of small units is a good way not to do that. It also seems like they’d really suffer to flyrants and dark talons - which are everywhere in the meta right now.
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
You'll have to wait 6 months or so for me to build and paint it all, I'm just sounding things out before I commit.
GAH! I feel you man. I just painted the first 5 of my 60 firewarriors. They are looking pretty good (painting tau sept) but man - this is a task man!
I’ve got 12 of them nearly done. I’m planning on using somewhere between 12 and 72...
I’m a bit concerned about fire warrior spam. They seem a lot like glass hammers to me. Glass hammer lists really want to go first, but spamming loads of small units is a good way not to do that. It also seems like they’d really suffer to flyrants and dark talons - which are everywhere in the meta right now.
Thankfully my local meta runs into the same long-term planning issues since we all need to buy and build before fielding anything. Nothing in the tournament meta ever makes it to our tables without there already being thorough counters established because of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 04:10:32
I would like to ask why everyone is so down on Crisis Suits?
With the cyclic ion blaster buff, the triple cyclic ion blaster suits hit like a truck and they provide way more offensive output for their cost than Stealth suits or Ghostkeels. A few shield drones go a long way towards increasing their survivabilty (which is their weakest point). T5 W3 3+ Sv is pretty resilient to small arms fire and shield drones help stop the big stuff. You manta strike them in to get a guaranteed shooting phase off and you'll mess up anything short of a Land Raider especially with markerlight support. They can't be tied up in close combat and you can even use them to charge to tie other things up. Admittedly, they are too pricey to make a list solely out of them but I think they absolutely have a place in a Tau list. They need a little more thought into their deployment as they won't make their points back in one shooting phase, but I've been using two squads to great effect to roll up flanks and eliminate isolated targets. The fact that they are not as cost effective as the (frankly undercosted) commanders don't mean they are a bad unit. I will admit there should be a separate weapons cost between commanders and regular suits (similar to AM veterans)
Now I will say that loading them out with anything other than cyclic ion blasters has been underwhelming for me and I think the other weapons/options need to be rebalanced. I know this isn't really the forum for this but I think it will help me explain myself:
Missle Pods are a decent weapon but cost way too many points. They need to be dropped to at least the cost of the cyclic ion blaster (trading range for damage output), and/or probably given AP-2 or Str. 8.
Burst cannons should be like 2 points. A storm bolter on a BS 3+ tank is 2 points... This would give an option for a relatively cheap suit. The issue is that if I needed S5 AP0 shooting i would just take fire warriors with a cadre fireblade.
Flamers are tough to balance on suits. With the current deep strike rules there just isn't really a place for them. They could be free and most people still probably wouldn't use them.
The Plasma rifle just needs to be given the imperial statline now that there's a safe firing mode and tau have other overcharging weapons. If given that it would probably justify a price increase to 15 points. (Trades shots for AP over the cyclic ion blaster)
The fusion blaster is the other legitimate option, but I don't prefer it as it more of a specialty anti-tank weapon than the take all comer cyclic ion blaster as I don't want to limit my options.
The airbursting fragmentation projector needs to be reworked completely. Ignore LOS is rarely an issue and without that it's just a worse burst cannon. I'd give 2D6 shots, but then what do you do with the flamer?
In summary, I think Crisis Suits compare favorably with our other Elite choices (Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, Rip tide, etc.) with the cyclic ion blaster buff and are valuable part of a Tau army. Have any of you actually tried using them and what have you experienced?
If Crisis Suits had just gone down by ten points, I think they'd be fieldable. Even a minimum-supplied unit with each sporting burst cannon would have been usable then. As it stands? I just can't pull it off.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Though it is even worse than that. It is 126 points as we can't take lone suits anymore. If we could take lone suits, then I could see crisis suits still having a role of suicide melta drop, even at their current cost. Having to take three in a unit means that you have too many points invested in that unit for such a role to work, not to mention the problem of having to find a space to put down three bases in range of your target as opposed to one.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Yeah the points costs and power of crisis suits and their weapons is all over the place.
Mostly they are just way over-costed for what they deliver. The price of missile pods in particular is just stupid, but I agree that burst cannons are too pricey too.
Plasma is odd because they kind of aren’t terrible - they are just annoying. How come a tau plasma rifle is so much worse than an imperial one - even when not overcharging? 225 for 18 s6 ap -3 shots isn’t terrible, but it’s nowhere near what scions will do.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/28 08:43:20
2500 
2200 
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
15000
4000