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Thoughts on suits; the minimum threshold is too high.

3 suits, 8 burst cannons and a drone controller could be an interesting option.

80-93pts more for 8-9 less slots; that are +2-3str with -1AP (Or are we saying ATS+ 2xCIB is roughly the same?) that can do D3 damage.

Against vehicles, D3 damage in unquestionably better, so the CIB *wins*

However against all other targets (per point/per minimum threshold), how good are burst cannons vs. CIB. My math suggests it's 3.5 marines to 4-5 (Depending on Overcharge)..

Does the CIB benefit more from buffs, do they get better quicker?

It feels like; 195pts for a drone-buffing unit (multi-role) that puts out 32 str5 shots is goodish. 288pts for 27 str7-8 shots (the overcharge is good but due to high VoF, you've got likely odds to often get a 1 re-rolling into 1's, as 1-in-36 is statistically guaranteed), underwhelming. I agree it either needs a point reduction or a squad-size minimum of 1 or 2.

Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).

Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.

Ugh.

Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.

Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.

On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.

I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.

Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).

Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.

Ugh.

Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.

Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.

On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.

I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.

Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.

Invulnerable saves are a real problem for railguns, of any variety. You're paying a lot for a good AP, but often that's wasted.

So for example a commander with fusion blasters in theory does slightly more damage to a normal tank than a CIB commander. But the CIB guy's damage is consistent if he fires at a daemon primarch or a flyrant, while the fusion blaster guy's damage drops by half.

Often the high-shot low-ap weapon does flat out more damage right from the start. So an ion cannon simpy out-damages a railgun, is less affected by invulnerable saves and costs less. There's basically no argument for ever taking a railhead, when you can have a cheaper option that's better against any target. And with longstrike around they are immune to overheating - unless they fire at planes etc.

Railgun broadsides are one possible exception. Going from S7 to 8 makes a big difference. The cumulative effect of the much better AP, better strength, D6 damage and occasional mortal wounds mean they actually do better damage per point to tanks than HYMP broadsides. To be fair, neither is actually all that great. With broadsids you're paying for staying power and raining SMS on things, not a heavy alpha strike.

A unit of broadsides is probably the only thing (with the possible exception of a big unit of crisis suits) worth using the CNC node stratagem on. But even then the damage commanders hand out is significantly higher, point for point. I've looked at taking a virtually unarmed commander to sit with some broadsides, a stormsurge and/or a riptide and call kauyon for a massive turn 1 shooting phase. It's an option, but I'm honestly not that keen.

Razerous wrote:
Thoughts on suits; the minimum threshold is too high.

3 suits, 8 burst cannons and a drone controller could be an interesting option.

80-93pts more for 8-9 less slots; that are +2-3str with -1AP (Or are we saying ATS+ 2xCIB is roughly the same?) that can do D3 damage.

Against vehicles, D3 damage in unquestionably better, so the CIB *wins*

However against all other targets (per point/per minimum threshold), how good are burst cannons vs. CIB. My math suggests it's 3.5 marines to 4-5 (Depending on Overcharge)..

Does the CIB benefit more from buffs, do they get better quicker?

It feels like; 195pts for a drone-buffing unit (multi-role) that puts out 32 str5 shots is goodish. 288pts for 27 str7-8 shots (the overcharge is good but due to high VoF, you've got likely odds to often get a 1 re-rolling into 1's, as 1-in-36 is statistically guaranteed), underwhelming. I agree it either needs a point reduction or a squad-size minimum of 1 or 2.

Problem with burst cannons is that you can get S5 AP0 1D firepower for MUCH cheaper on Fire Warriors, and if you're looking for board control/ forward firepower with BCs you're probably better off with Stealth Suits. Crisis suits are definitely viable with CIBs or Fusion Blasters when played as FSE with their +1 to hit stratagem (especially nice on mass CIB as it renders you immune to overheating against most targets) but I can see why non-FSE players have had trouble finding a niche for them. I don't think reducing their base cost is going to solve the problem however. I don't think that they're that expensive for a T5 3W 3+ save platform with huge range of customization options. What I think should happen is split their weapon options in BS4+ versions for normal suits and 2+ versions for Commanders and put appropriate price tags on them for the Ballistic Skill at which they're going to be used (meaning a reduction for normal Crisis Suits and maybe a slight price increase for Commanders).

Agree with the above, and I'd add that Hazard suits still exist. You can get 4 burst cannons plus an ATS for 95 pts (for now - will likely decrease with the FAQ, if anything) instead of 3 unsupported cannons for 66 on a weaker platform.

I think if someone is going to get crisis (which I don't advise),then go the extra mile and get the bodyguards. People have been suggesting dropping shield drones to prevent retaliation on the advancing coldstar commander, but those can be bypassed. Bodyguard crisis though do not need to be the closest model to protect your commander, they just have to be there. And the 3 extra ppm is not a huge tax to pay.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I think if someone is going to get crisis (which I don't advise),then go the extra mile and get the bodyguards. People have been suggesting dropping shield drones to prevent retaliation on the advancing coldstar commander, but those can be bypassed. Bodyguard crisis though do not need to be the closest model to protect your commander, they just have to be there. And the 3 extra ppm is not a huge tax to pay.

True, but they're VERY expensive to just use as 1-turn bodyguards for a Coldstar (because Crisis suits can't keep up with a Coldstar and they have to be within 3"). It's not like Mortarion with Deathshrouds where, if played well, Mortarion can make back the extra ~200 points that 1 turn of 6 ablative wounds will cost him.

Maybe it would be nice for a XV85 Enforcer with 3x CIB + Supernova Launcher that deepstrikes with them and stays with them (easy because same movement speed). Or maybe even with Farsight where Farsight charges something while the Crisis Bodyguards stay within 3" at point blank firing range (although I guess with smart model placement an opponent can easily force the Crisis Guards to fall back more than 3" from Farsight because they can't shoot otherwise) to make the opponent wonder how the hell a Crisis suit with a sword just outdueled his Bloodthirster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Agree with the above, and I'd add that Hazard suits still exist. You can get 4 burst cannons plus an ATS for 95 pts (for now - will likely decrease with the FAQ, if anything) instead of 3 unsupported cannons for 66 on a weaker platform.

Pity they're FW though (and therefore often banned). I'd also like to try out those Fusion Cascade things as I play FSE, they're basically melta shotguns IIRC

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.

Lemondish wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.

It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.

If bodyguards had been able to take matching suits as the commanders they would have instantly had a role.
Also bodyguards also having an additional attack over a standard crisis suit, not exactly ground breaking but if your fielding farsight it helps.

Perhaps controvercially, I'm not sure I agree that 66ppm is too much for 12 burst cannon shots that can deep strike. A squad of 3 actually cost about the same as 12 fire warriors in a devilfish, for roughly the same damage output (unless there's a fireblade nearby, which won't always be the case).

They also deep strike, and they fire from 18" away without needing support.

I don't think that BC crisis suits are amazingly good, but I think they are a potential option.

Generally I think that the price of the "body" is too high, and the prices of the weapons are stupidly random. Missile pods obviously aren't worth 24 points. I really think they should have put in different prices for guns depending on what is carrying them, because guns on commanders are so much better than they are on crisis suits - or any of the BS4+ platforms.

 davou wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.

It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.

Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.

But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.

Lemondish wrote:

 davou wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.

It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.

Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.

But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.

I think you're probably right about this. At the moment, it's hard to justify using a hardpoint on a crisis suit or commander for a support system - so they don't have them. If it was 2 guns and a support system slot then that would make more sense.

I wouldn't make them BS3+ though. Instead I'd make them cost a lot less. Right now they are extreme glass cannons, with 3 wounds and ~60 points worth of weapons. They aren't in the insane territory of centurions, but they aren't far off.

Instead I'd go to BS3+ when a model is a shas'vre. So bodyguard suits, riptides, ghostkeels etc should be BS3+. I don't see why a hammerhead gets BS3+ and none of the suits do - especially when they are piloted by higher-ranking Tau.

Regarding marker lights, I confess that I haven't been very high on them at all since 8th dropped. However, the ATT guys seem convinced that they're a crucial part of any strong Tau list. Since the advent of Sa'cea, that's a concept I'm somewhat coming around to but am a little skeptical of. I like our marker light strats, especially the Sa'cea specific light splash one for essentially army-wide rerolls of 1s, which is extremely helpful on the turn you bring your Commanders in. Stacked markers are certainly helpful for taking down important targets, and since we can hide reliable markers so effectively now, 5 hits is fairly easy to come by with a bit of planning.

Consequently, i'm thinking a Sa'cea detachment of some sort will be really helpful for marker support. I'd probably either do a Vanguard with a Fireblade and some Marksmen or a Battlion for the CP. Alternatively, a bare-bones Brigade like I mentioned previously would be an excellent CP boost for ~800 pts. You'd have all the markers you'd ever need plus a Commander and some particularly accurate Sniper Drones included in that cost.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Regarding marker lights, I confess that I haven't been very high on them at all since 8th dropped. However, the ATT guys seem convinced that they're a crucial part of any strong Tau list. Since the advent of Sa'cea, that's a concept I'm somewhat coming around to but am a little skeptical of. I like our marker light strats, especially the Sa'cea specific light splash one for essentially army-wide rerolls of 1s, which is extremely helpful on the turn you bring your Commanders in. Stacked markers are certainly helpful for taking down important targets, and since we can hide reliable markers so effectively now, 5 hits is fairly easy to come by with a bit of planning.

Consequently, i'm thinking a Sa'cea detachment of some sort will be really helpful for marker support. I'd probably either do a Vanguard with a Fireblade and some Marksmen or a Battlion for the CP. Alternatively, a bare-bones Brigade like I mentioned previously would be an excellent CP boost for ~800 pts. You'd have all the markers you'd ever need plus a Commander and some particularly accurate Sniper Drones included in that cost.

Don't forget throwing markerlights into Strike teams for extra sources in that brigade. Sa'cea can ensure you get re-roll 1 nearly army wide for anything you want to target, which is awesome, and might even help you drop target locks in favour of some other support systems.

Lemondish wrote:

 davou wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.

I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.

It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.

Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.

But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.

I'd go a step further and do the same to commanders. (enforcers get 3 weapons + 1 system, coldstars get 2 weapons +1 system). That would solve more problems than points could.

Dandelion wrote:
I'd go a step further and do the same to commanders. (enforcers get 3 weapons + 1 system, coldstars get 2 weapons +1 system). That would solve more problems than points could.

While that would definitely give the Enforcer a bit more to its name outside of being the middle child, I'm not sure it's worth nerfing Commanders any further.

Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Ya know it would of been cool if a mander had equipment based buff options that ate slots.

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Pandabeer wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.

They can still be powerful, but they shouldn't be the best at everything. If anything they should be a tad inefficient at shooting compared to Crisis suits (points wise) but that is made up with aura buffs.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.

I'd just extent the range to either 18" or the whole board.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.

What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.

What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?

Breachers?

Part of the problem with Montka is that you have to call it at the start of the turn. So it's not much use on breachers, who are likely in a transport at that point... or dead.

I really don't like the ability. In fact I don't like eihter that or Kauyon. The problem is it doesn't work at all for a commander to be hanging out with static shooty units - that's not his role at all. Giving a unit of broadsides (for example) rerolls to hit just isn't really worth losing your commander's shooting.

You could potentially look at having a missile pod commander to call kauyon, so that you had a strong alpha strike. I don't think it works all that well though.

I don't think either should be an aura ability either. It's not as if the shaso is sticking his head out of his suit and shouting at people. In either case it's a planned strategy being executed by combined arms.

I think I'd rewrite both abilities completely. But I don't write the rules!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.

Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.

Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.

What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?

I was thinking firewarriors. It would allow them to advance and fire their rapid fire weapons. If you are able to rapid turn 1 it represents a 200% increase in firepower. If you have something along the lines of 60 fariewarriors - that is huge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
Part of the problem with Montka is that you have to call it at the start of the turn. So it's not much use on breachers, who are likely in a transport at that point... or dead.

I really don't like the ability. In fact I don't like eihter that or Kauyon. The problem is it doesn't work at all for a commander to be hanging out with static shooty units - that's not his role at all. Giving a unit of broadsides (for example) rerolls to hit just isn't really worth losing your commander's shooting.

You could potentially look at having a missile pod commander to call kauyon, so that you had a strong alpha strike. I don't think it works all that well though.

I don't think either should be an aura ability either. It's not as if the shaso is sticking his head out of his suit and shouting at people. In either case it's a planned strategy being executed by combined arms.

I think I'd rewrite both abilities completely. But I don't write the rules!

Other than the fact that the missle is overcosted - it works incredibly well. Though It might actually work better to build with CIB and just give up a turn of shooting to use the reroll wounds for a battle suit unit ability (maybe on 3 broadsides).

Pandabeer wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.

I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.

No, they are really not.

They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.

As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.

Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?