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Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
No, they are really not.
They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.
As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.
Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?
The multi-tracker was nerfed because re-rolling 1's wasn't really easy to acquire in the Commander and gun drone spam. It contributed to that, so it needed to be changed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 01:13:39
Captain Joystick wrote: So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).
Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.
Ugh.
Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.
Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.
On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.
I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.
Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.
Invulnerable saves are a real problem for railguns, of any variety. You're paying a lot for a good AP, but often that's wasted.
So for example a commander with fusion blasters in theory does slightly more damage to a normal tank than a CIB commander. But the CIB guy's damage is consistent if he fires at a daemon primarch or a flyrant, while the fusion blaster guy's damage drops by half.
Often the high-shot low-ap weapon does flat out more damage right from the start. So an ion cannon simpy out-damages a railgun, is less affected by invulnerable saves and costs less. There's basically no argument for ever taking a railhead, when you can have a cheaper option that's better against any target. And with longstrike around they are immune to overheating - unless they fire at planes etc.
Railgun broadsides are one possible exception. Going from S7 to 8 makes a big difference. The cumulative effect of the much better AP, better strength, D6 damage and occasional mortal wounds mean they actually do better damage per point to tanks than HYMP broadsides. To be fair, neither is actually all that great. With broadsids you're paying for staying power and raining SMS on things, not a heavy alpha strike.
A unit of broadsides is probably the only thing (with the possible exception of a big unit of crisis suits) worth using the CNC node stratagem on. But even then the damage commanders hand out is significantly higher, point for point. I've looked at taking a virtually unarmed commander to sit with some broadsides, a stormsurge and/or a riptide and call kauyon for a massive turn 1 shooting phase. It's an option, but I'm honestly not that keen.
I'd say if you are going to do a buff mander - you still give him a good weapons load out - later in close games having 2+ to hit units is important. Probably 3CIB ATS enforcer would work best here - it probably wasn't going to have good shoot turn 1 anyways unless he suicides - but why suicide when he can make a 3 man broadside unit reroll all hits and wounds? That possibly might do as much damage as your suicide attack.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
No, they are really not.
They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.
As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.
Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?
There are times when taking 3 guns and ATS is suitable on a commander. 3 CIB ATS commanders are really great and cheap too. There's also relic weapons that benefit from the bonus -1AP a great deal. Mainly the high output burst cannon and relic supernova launcher.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 01:34:08
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
Multi tracker is crap. OFC.
For some reason the codex has an over abundence of ways to get reroll 1's in shooting. With marker lights being so central to the armies design - it makes all of these options crap. If you were playing tyranids though - multi tracker would be a great upgrade for a lot of units.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
I am most certainly never leaving home without at least one EWO on my Riptide, and quite possibly a second one somewhere else too. There are so many alpha strike armies at the moment it would be stupid not to take it.
Also CDS in the T'au sept is CRAZY good. Especially if you consider the fact that T'au sept is the only one having access to Longstrike and also the +1 to wound stratagem.
I think most other armies would be giving an arm and a leg to have such kind of upgrade options available to them.
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
Why? I thought it was pretty accurate. Are there choices on here that you have gotten good mileage out of?
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
So, let's see:
- SG: Mandatory on the Stormsurge. Almost mandatory on the Ghostkeel as well unless you're going for a yolo glasscannon with ATS, TL and the Cyclic Ion Raker.
- CDS: kind of niche, but potentially very good on T'au sept Riptides, Stormsurges and Broadsides.
- MT: Got me there. Reroll 1s is quite easy to access so I don't really see a niche for this.
- TL: (almost) mandatory on Ghostkeels and Riptides. Broadsides can greatly benefit from it as well if they are forced to move to get a good shot. The TL effect requires 4 markerlights now so it's a lot harder to get.
- VT: This ones' niche as well, but if you know your opponent is going to bring units with the Fly keyword can be quite useful.
- EWO: mandatory on a non-T'au sept Stormsurge (in a TAC list scenario), although I'll admit that's mostly because it has an inbuilt TL so the 3rd support system slot can be spent on the EWO (because SG and ATS are mandatory on the Surge at all times). Makes deepstriking within 12" of the Stormsurge nearly impossible, so a very good way tp protect a gunline from would-be deepstriking CC units.
Also, there are (almost) no gaming systems in existence that offer true choices in these kind of things. Take a look at talent trees in videogames for example, which is a nice analogy for the support system table. EVERYONE takes the same cookie cutter build no matter how the developers try to offer "actual choice" because there's always that one talent combination that cranks out the most DPS, can take the most punishment or offers that one super wombo-combo of special effects (crowd control chains, stacking buffs so you're Superman for 15 seconds, etc.). Sure, other builds might be viable in some niche circumstances (see CDS and VT in the support system table) but 90% of the time the cookie cutter build performs best so is taken.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/03/29 17:16:01
CfDS is absolutely beast on storm surges - IMO it's > EWO.
EWO will literally never produce offense for you - it is just a no fly zone. If you have a lot of no fly zones though - they will just overload against one of them and a SS hitting on 5's has a high chance to do nothing special.
For any tau sept though you can hit on 5'6' in overwatch for 1 CP - and tau can do it for free. This makes you 5 to hit with reroll vs any unit charging any of your units within 6" of you. It will net 2x the damage as EWO if they want to charge your pathetic in CC tau and it's even possible that you can overwatch more than once in a turn (realistically - they just wont charge you)
As far as offense goes though - VT is my preferred upgrade for a surge. It's going to produce offense in almost every game .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 17:13:54
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
So, let's see:
- SG: Mandatory on the Stormsurge. Almost mandatory on the Ghostkeel as well unless you're going for a yolo glasscannon with ATS, TL and the Cyclic Ion Raker.
- CDS: kind of niche, but potentially very good on T'au sept Riptides, Stormsurges and Broadsides.
- MT: Got me there. Reroll 1s is quite easy to access so I don't really see a niche for this.
- TL: (almost) mandatory on Ghostkeels and Riptides. Broadsides can greatly benefit from it as well if they are forced to move to get a good shot. The TL effect requires 4 markerlights now so it's a lot harder to get.
- VT: This ones' niche as well, but if you know your opponent is going to bring units with the Fly keyword can be quite useful.
- EWO: mandatory on a non-T'au sept Stormsurge (in a TAC list scenario), although I'll admit that's mostly because it has an inbuilt TL so the 3rd support system slot can be spent on the EWO (because SG and ATS are mandatory on the Surge at all times). Makes deepstriking within 12" of the Stormsurge nearly impossible, so a very good way tp protect a gunline from would-be deepstriking CC units.
Mostly agree with this, though I will expand on the (almost) mandatory aspect of TL on Riptides in particular. Usually you want to light up the target you're going to focus with your Riptide, so TL tends to be wasted since you gain that ability with ML tokens. I think it's much closer to mandatory on Ghostkeels given the targets they are likely to be engaging.
CDS is a bit more than kind of niche, but you're mostly on point here because it's best on T'au. With clever positioning a good chunk of your army can participate in overwatch, so adding more damage into that is a huge benefit.
Quite honestly, you've done a great job describing the value of these - everything except the MT has a pretty solid effect, even if it isn't entirely universal. A TL, as mentioned before, is worthless against a target with 5ML, just like a SG is useless against weapons with no AP. Or a VT is useless against an army without flying, or a CDS is useless against another gunline that doesn't want to charge you. Most armies have some sort of deep strike unit, so EWO is almost always useful.
The thing with support systems is that although they are kind of useful, when it comes to crisis suits/commanders you're always better off just taking another gun. The systems work well enough for suits with dedicated slots.
If I were to change anything, I would certainly force a hard point on crisis and commanders to be a support system. And drop their cost. A crisis suit can take an extra CIB for only 6 more points than an ATS...
Dandelion wrote: The thing with support systems is that although they are kind of useful, when it comes to crisis suits/commanders you're always better off just taking another gun. The systems work well enough for suits with dedicated slots.
If I were to change anything, I would certainly force a hard point on crisis and commanders to be a support system. And drop their cost. A crisis suit can take an extra CIB for only 6 more points than an ATS...
Depends. I like a couple of SGs in my Crisis team to tank high damage/ AP shots with after my drones are gone, and one of my Crisis suits also has a Drone Controller to improve Gun Drone BS with (I deepstrike with a bunch of gun drone and I figured that the loss of one CIB was worth getting +1 BS on a lot of Gun Drone shots). My Commander also has a SG because he has the Fusion Blades so he needs to be able to survive in melee with Big Bads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 18:13:31
Quick question about the Dal'yth strike and fade strategem. If I am reading it correctly and understand the order of operations, you have to declare it at the start of the shooting phase, immediately shoot with that unit and then move it?
So no getting the benefits of markerlights for that unit..
Or can you simple declare it at the start of the shooting phase and continue as normal, and make the move after the selected unit shoots?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:56:59
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
Red Dog Minis, formerly Paulson Games, makes excellent alternate weapon bits for Tau units, including the CIB and AirFrag. Not that anybody wants to use the AirFrag, but the point is that a high-quality, relatively inexpensive modeling option for it exists.
To add my opinion on Crisis suits and tactics, I've run a whole series of spreadsheets calculating PPW (Points Per Wound Inflicted) for all manner of Tau units, all different loadouts, against several different target profiles. There are really only two things you want Crisis suits for at the moment: Triple CIBs to take on MEqs, and triple Flamers for hordes. Any other job there is, another Tau unit that does it significantly more efficiently.
Similarly, while Riptides are vastly improved with their lower points cost, the only time they are your best option offensively is loaded up with HBC, 2 SMS, ATS, & TL, to hunt MEqs. Now, offense isn't its only use, obviously. The Riptide has a reputation for being big and scary, so it also serves marvelously as a bullet sponge that can still dish out some damage. The Ghostkeel serves a similar function, but cheaper and at a smaller scale.
I'd also like to point out that Gun Drones are still awesome against hordes, and do really well against MEqs too with a Drone Controller nearby. Imagine dropping a 3-suit Crisis team with 8 CIBs, a Drone Controller, and 6 Gun Drones next to a Marine unit, with at least one Markerlight hit to get the re-roll 1s effect. That's 9 dead Tacticals, or 6 dead Primaris, or even 4 dead Terminators, from a 347-point unit that effectively has to lose 6 wounds before it loses even 25% of its firepower.
Hammerhead Gunship 175
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
Hammerhead Gunship 175
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
3 Sniper Drones 54
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
So 4 of the fire warrior teams start in devilfish, along with the fireblade and maybe the marksman. Ghostkeels are for screening and then making a nuisance of themselves. The hammerheads provide a pretty heavy alpha against enemy tanks, if I get first turn. That's where the plan starts to fall down a little though if I'm honest. I've got a lot of units, and not a huge chance of going first.
I'm going to a tournament in April that only allows one of each kind of detachment - which rules out taking multiple battalions. I think a brigade is the best option in that scenario. But I do want to go first - a lot. So here's an alternative option, where that's rather more likely. The first list has 15 or 16 drops. The second has 8. Any thoughts on which is better?
Tau Vanguard
Enforcer Commander 148
4 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Vectored Manoeuvering Thrusters
Longstrike 212
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
Cadre Fireblade 42
Markerlight
5 Fire Warriors 35
6 Fire Warriors 42
6 Fire Warriors 42
6 Fire Warriors 42
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment
Stormsurge 456
Pulse Driver Cannon
Cluster Rocket System
Four Destroyer Missiles
Two Burst Cannons
Two Smart Missile Systems
Advanced Targeting System
Shield Generator
Early Warning Override
An option might be to swap the Stormsurge for a unit of broadsides. I could probably just about stretch to a spearhead detachment if I did that, if I added another cheap HQ. Not sure which is better.
Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
Red Dog Minis, formerly Paulson Games, makes excellent alternate weapon bits for Tau units, including the CIB and AirFrag. Not that anybody wants to use the AirFrag, but the point is that a high-quality, relatively inexpensive modeling option for it exists.
To add my opinion on Crisis suits and tactics, I've run a whole series of spreadsheets calculating PPW (Points Per Wound Inflicted) for all manner of Tau units, all different loadouts, against several different target profiles. There are really only two things you want Crisis suits for at the moment: Triple CIBs to take on MEqs, and triple Flamers for hordes. Any other job there is, another Tau unit that does it significantly more efficiently.
Similarly, while Riptides are vastly improved with their lower points cost, the only time they are your best option offensively is loaded up with HBC, 2 SMS, ATS, & TL, to hunt MEqs. Now, offense isn't its only use, obviously. The Riptide has a reputation for being big and scary, so it also serves marvelously as a bullet sponge that can still dish out some damage. The Ghostkeel serves a similar function, but cheaper and at a smaller scale.
I'd also like to point out that Gun Drones are still awesome against hordes, and do really well against MEqs too with a Drone Controller nearby. Imagine dropping a 3-suit Crisis team with 8 CIBs, a Drone Controller, and 6 Gun Drones next to a Marine unit, with at least one Markerlight hit to get the re-roll 1s effect. That's 9 dead Tacticals, or 6 dead Primaris, or even 4 dead Terminators, from a 347-point unit that effectively has to lose 6 wounds before it loses even 25% of its firepower.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head.
I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I don't think having 3 fusion Coldstars is overkill at all, but running CIBs is also a great option. Really, anything will work well when it hits on a 2+, but fusion and CIB are easily our best loadouts.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I don't think having 3 fusion Coldstars is overkill at all, but running CIBs is also a great option. Really, anything will work well when it hits on a 2+, but fusion and CIB are easily our best loadouts.
Its been repeated like 400 times, No CIB for coldstars alowed
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
I agree overall, but if you're willing to babysit them a little bit, the triple CIB loadout can be pretty impressive, if you look at the numbers. I think the only time I'd give that a shot would be in a FSE Crisis Bomb, though. The +1 to hit makes them an absolute wrecking crew...for a turn. After that, they're a massively expensive and fragile unit that still dishes the hurt but will probably die pretty darn quickly. You can mitigate that issue to a large degree by dropping a bunch of drones in with them, of course. If you've got the marker support for them, they can pop off overcharged shots at will, so keeping them alive for an extra turn is obviously a good idea.
On that note, I think Crisis Suits are now in a weird position where they could potentially become broken in FSE with minor buffs. 9 suits plus gun drones and a Commander for C&CN dropping in costs a good 1100 points, but it's going to essentially clear the entire 18" bubble around those units. With full buffs up - and if you're running this unit, there's no excuse not to have it fully buffed - you're averaging just over 39 wounds against freaking Plagueburst Crawlers and more like 70 wounds against a standard T7/3+ platform. That's a ridiculous amount of firepower for a single unit to push, regardless of cost. To be clear, that does not include the Gun Drones. You'd have to be really crafty with Stealth Suits to get your drop positioning right and prevent getting screened out, but man, you can basically delete an army in a turn as it is.
With the points reduction they'd need to be useful in other septs - maybe 10 pts or so? - you're shaving a big number off the Crisis Bomb mega unit and potentially allowing another big suit in for support. Maybe I'm being alarmist, and that one turn of laying waste to everything in your path is all you'll get out of that unit plus or minus some decent output the following turn, assuming you brought a bunch of drones. In that case, your massive expenditure on that unit is just an all-or-nothing gambit rather than an auto-win button. If the units has more staying power than it seems, it'll just steamroll everything, and having an extra Ghostkeel or unit of Stealth Suits in the mix to further hem your opponent in could make matters much worse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 14:16:08
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
For shooting MEQs, yes, CIB suits aren't worth it.
For shooting things that are actually a threat, like flying hive tyrants, they kind of are. A squad of 3 has a decent chance of dropping a flyrant in a round of shooting. They do cost more than it does, but that still puts you in a good position against a hard-to-beat enemy army.
The good thing about CIBs is that they work against anything. A fusion blaster loses half of its effectiveness if firing at a target with a 4++ save - like those flyrants - while a CIB loses none. You even have the weight of fire to contribute to mowing down hordes. That's not what you want to be doing, but when that's what's required the unit can throw out 27 shots, which is something.
So for commanders I now think CIBs are a better choice than fusion, in most situations. Fusion blasters do slightly more damage against normal tanks without invulnerables, and you can take a penalty to hit without worrying about overheating, but for general purpose work the CIB is way more flexible.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I've never been a fan of QFB on commanders. CIB is just a hands down better option - you trade anti armor power for power vs everything. Since coldstars cant take CIB though - it puts you in a tough spot.
Coldstars can take high output burst - which is basically a double burst cannon. So I just run a HoBC, BC, Supernova launcher, ATS and use him to clear high armor save infantry. He's very cheap too.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
For shooting MEQs, yes, CIB suits aren't worth it.
For shooting things that are actually a threat, like flying hive tyrants, they kind of are. A squad of 3 has a decent chance of dropping a flyrant in a round of shooting. They do cost more than it does, but that still puts you in a good position against a hard-to-beat enemy army.
The good thing about CIBs is that they work against anything. A fusion blaster loses half of its effectiveness if firing at a target with a 4++ save - like those flyrants - while a CIB loses none. You even have the weight of fire to contribute to mowing down hordes. That's not what you want to be doing, but when that's what's required the unit can throw out 27 shots, which is something.
So for commanders I now think CIBs are a better choice than fusion, in most situations. Fusion blasters do slightly more damage against normal tanks without invulnerables, and you can take a penalty to hit without worrying about overheating, but for general purpose work the CIB is way more flexible.
You are about 100 points of a storm surge with those suits. A storm surge with anchors deployed and velocity tracker ats - has a good chance to kill 2 hive tyrants in a single turn.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
They need a base point drop and a min unit of 1. Then they would be useable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 14:15:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
To be honest I think crisis suits need a real overhaul. 3 expensive guns on a 3-wound platform is just really problematic, because they are such glass cannons. Commanders actually give you more wounds per point than normal crisis suits, and also hit better.
I think they should have a mininum unit size of 1, a maximum of two guns each with the third slot for a support system, and that the costs both of the bodies and the guns need looking at. In other books you see the cost of things like thunder hammers go up for characters, with more attacks and better WS. The same should apply to crisis suit weapons. It applies to support systems but not guns, and that's wrong.
I'm going to have to try out a stormsurge. This is good, because I've got one half built.
On a sillier note, you can take a target lock for a stormsurge, and it costs you 12 points. Given that it already suffers no penalties for moving and shooting, that seems a lot for the ability to fire two burst cannons, AFPs or flamers (lol) while advancing, without a penalty to hit.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah the points costs and power of crisis suits and their weapons is all over the place.
Mostly they are just way over-costed for what they deliver. The price of missile pods in particular is just stupid, but I agree that burst cannons are too pricey too.
Plasma is odd because they kind of aren’t terrible - they are just annoying. How come a tau plasma rifle is so much worse than an imperial one - even when not overcharging? 225 for 18 s6 ap -3 shots isn’t terrible, but it’s nowhere near what scions will do.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
I just use counts as. I just pretend my Earth Caste engineers have channeled their inner Ork and put all manner of guns on my Crisis suits that each miraculously do exactly the same (in this case, all CIB). I'm all for supporting GW but my supportiveness ends when I have to shell out extra money for separate bitz (and those aren't cheap either. If you want to make a WYSIWYG Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon using only GW bitz and not kitbashing something together from your own spare Assault Cannons you'll have to shell out an extra 16.50 pounds just for a Forgeworld Twin Assault Cannon bit(!)) or even entire extra boxes of models just so I can make a unit with a specific codex-legal loadout.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
HOBC, BC, Supernova Launcher, ATS. HOBC and BC are good against MEQ and the Supernova is an absolute terror against anything with 2 wounds and no good invul save. An even deadlier loadout is 3 CIB + Supernova or 2 CIB + Supernova + ATS but you can only do that on an Enforcer or Crisis Commander.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
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