Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.

On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem

 Dantioch wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.

On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem

Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.

notredameguy10 wrote:
If I want to make squads of 5 with a markerlight in each, how do you guys model the marker light on the fire warrior since each box only contains 1 marker light piece?

Chop off the bottom part of a Pulse Carbine and glue it to the top of the Pulse Rifle.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Aeri wrote:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/A3RN829DU/cyclic-ion-blaster-bits-pack-of-4-6-9-10-13?optionId=63483110&li=related-items

Yeah I saw that one before. Can't use it in my situation as it's non-GW though.

Just convert, from pretty much any other GW model. I've never seen legitimate conversions ruled illegal.

Probably easiest to take a Fusion Blaster, round off the top side of the box, snip off the barrel ends, and paint a keyhole on the front. You don't get the tri-barrel effect, but it's easy.

Note the Shapeways part is virtually identical to the GW part, and could be made to look identical with minimal effort. I wouldn't try it at Warhammer World, but most players wouldn't have a clue to the difference.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.

On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem

Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.

Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.

On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem

Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.

Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.

The blast cannon does look pretty useful, especially with bor'kan, but a pulse driver was what I had at hand. Still not great but certainly better then the index version, and with focused fire and kauyun it can deliver a pretty hefty punch.

I think both weapons are viable on the Stormsurge. The Blastcannon is probably better simply because it's less swingy, but it's not terribly hard to stay out of the deadly short-range profile, even if it's Bor'kan sept. The Driver Cannon can hit anything on the table pretty much, and actually has a higher potential damage output with good rolls. If using it, just anchor the Surge in the backfield, screened as necessary, and let it blast away. If its target gets 5 ML on it, it hits on 2's rerolling 1's, which is nasty for a weapon like the Pulse Driver.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I think both weapons are viable on the Stormsurge. The Blastcannon is probably better simply because it's less swingy, but it's not terribly hard to stay out of the deadly short-range profile, even if it's Bor'kan sept. The Driver Cannon can hit anything on the table pretty much, and actually has a higher potential damage output with good rolls. If using it, just anchor the Surge in the backfield, screened as necessary, and let it blast away. If its target gets 5 ML on it, it hits on 2's rerolling 1's, which is nasty for a weapon like the Pulse Driver.

I'd prefer the blastcannon really... wiith ATS even it's 30" profile is essentially a souped up overcharged Cyclic Ion Raker that doesn't inflict MWs on a 1. 20" is an upgraded quad Lascannon, which is very nice as well.

Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?

Yeah.

 meleti wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?

Yeah.

Huh. That actually makes Homing Beacons kind of interesting (more interesting?). It the only way to get DS suits w/in 12", and for Flamer or Fusion builds that could be useful. Redeploy the SS first, then drop the Crisis/Commander in at optimal range. It prevents the opponent crowding out the Homing beacon anyway. Food for thought I guess.

So it looks like plasma rifles are the big losers of weapon options?

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
So it looks like plasma rifles are the big losers of weapon options?

Personally I think Missile Pods are worse. Plasma Rifles are a decent source of cheap firepower with good AP. Missile Pods are basically ghetto Autocannons that cost way more than other armies' actual Autocannons. I'm not sure but what the actual biggest loser is the AFP, although the Sig System version is cool!

Ha, i forgot the air bursting thing-a-majig existed. I wonder if it had a point of ap....

A shame about missile pods as well.

The price of plasma is one thing I did not consider.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?

Yeah.

Huh. That actually makes Homing Beacons kind of interesting (more interesting?). It the only way to get DS suits w/in 12", and for Flamer or Fusion builds that could be useful. Redeploy the SS first, then drop the Crisis/Commander in at optimal range. It prevents the opponent crowding out the Homing beacon anyway. Food for thought I guess.

But does it still count as beginning of the movement phase if you use wall of mirrors? Using that stratagem triggers the Reserves rule which makes it so 1 unit has already used up their movement phase and counts as having moved for ruling purposes.

Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.

 Dantioch wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.

On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem

Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.

Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.

The blast cannon does look pretty useful, especially with bor'kan, but a pulse driver was what I had at hand. Still not great but certainly better then the index version, and with focused fire and kauyun it can deliver a pretty hefty punch.

A stormsurge gives you way more than just the main gun though. You get the alpha strike from the 4 destroyer missiles and about 30 S5 ap-1 shots if everything's in range. And you can stick a velocity tracker on it to make it pretty accurate against a lot of high-priority targets - like flyrants and primarchs.

I'm thinking of trying a stormsurge and longstrike with 2 other hammerheads (all ion with 2 seekers). The idea is to force people between shooting Longstrike or the Stormsurge. My alpha strike if I go first should be pretty harsh too.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.

The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.

liverscrew wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.

The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.

That's not what it says.

 Fueli wrote:

liverscrew wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.

The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.

That's not what it says.

Well it says treat them as reinforcements and reinforcements rule in the core rulebook says:

Reinforcements
Many units have the
ability to be set up on
the battlefield mid-turn,
sometimes by using
teleporters, grav chutes or
other, more esoteric means.
Typically, this happens at
the end of the Movement
phase, but it can also
happen during other
phases. Units that are set
up in this manner cannot
move or Advance further
during the turn they arrive
– their entire Movement
phase is used in deploying
to the battlefield – but they
can otherwise act normally
(shoot, charge, etc.) for the
rest of their turn. Units that
arrive as reinforcements
count as having moved in
their Movement phase for
all rules purposes, such as
shooting Heavy weapons.
Any unit that has not
arrived on the battlefield by
the end of the battle counts
as having been destroyed.

This looks like one for the FAQ. I'd assumed that the stealths could keep moving, but maybe not... but maybe GW didn't understand the implications of their own rules. I'm not sure what the RAI is here.

Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.

liverscrew wrote:
Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.

They definitely haven't moved, as in used any of their inches of movement, and it's still the start of the movement phase, so they can place the homing beacon. Also, as your quotation points out, reinforcements can arrive at the end of the movement phase, but that's not the only time reinforcements can arrive. So given the stratagem takes place at the beginning of the movement phase, they arrive before any movement has taken place, therefore they can place the homing beacon, as it's still the beginning, and any other effects that take place then, like ethereal invocations, can take place. Perhaps it needs an FAQ, but that's how I'd play it.

Yeah the thing with normal stuff arriving from reinforcements is that it happens at the end of the movement phase, which means they can't move any further. Stuff happening at the beginning of the phase suggests to me that they can keep going. I'm not sure though, because clearly the stratagem involves the stealths moving quite a long way, so you could see why that might use up their movement.

In any case, you can definitely drop off the beacon after doing smoke and mirrors.

I don't think there's any explicit notion of what "start of the movement phase" means as it applies to multiple abilities that are used at that time. Just because a unit counts as having moved because of an ability doesn't mean they actually moved in the movement phase. From the BBB:

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to."

That's not what WoM is doing, so I think we're OK assuming that using the stat doesn't "Start the movement phase". Casual reading of course. I'll probably post this on YMDC and get the copy editors to go over it. Maybe the semantic difference between "set up" and "set up again" is enough to allow them movement as well, IDK.

What I wanted to be able to do is to redeploy the Stealths and drop the beacon to ensure an optimal deployment from the beacon. I don't actually care if the Stealths can move or not Dropping Flamers or Fusion within optimal range seems pretty useful IMO.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

liverscrew wrote:
Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.

They definitely haven't moved, as in used any of their inches of movement, and it's still the start of the movement phase, so they can place the homing beacon. Also, as your quotation points out, reinforcements can arrive at the end of the movement phase, but that's not the only time reinforcements can arrive. So given the stratagem takes place at the beginning of the movement phase, they arrive before any movement has taken place, therefore they can place the homing beacon, as it's still the beginning, and any other effects that take place then, like ethereal invocations, can take place. Perhaps it needs an FAQ, but that's how I'd play it.

I agree that they haven't actually moved using their inches, but the reinforcements rule illustrates that they are using up their movement for entering portals or landing on the battlefield from a dropship or something like that, i.e. you exchange your regular move for a movement provided by the ability. The question here that would need an FAQ is a precise definition of the "start of the phase" concept. If the reinforcements rule is meant to be treated as "having moved" for all ruling purposes, I'd consider determining if it's the start of the phase as one example of such rulings. Not to mention if GW wanted T'au to be able to use offensive beacon drops they could have just left the beacon rules as they were in the index. I think this was made with the intent to remove dropping fusion/flamer suits and commanders at their most effective sub 9"/8" range on opponents on turn 1.

I posted this on YMDC so we aren't clogging up the tactics thread with deep readings.

Assuming you can redeploy and then drop the beacon, do we think this is useful? It sounds cool for flamers and fusion but that doesn't necessarily make it any better than a parlor trick.

It actually sounds about as useful as psychological warfare as anything else. If you have a couple of homing beacons and a unit of Flamer or Fusion Suits the opponent will be thinking about them while he's positioning his troops. If that affects his deployment and/or makes him alter his movement for a turn I think it's done it's job, whether or not the beacon actually gets used.

I'm pretty sure it's a parlour trick. I'm not really sure there's a requirement to do a bunch of S4 hits on things, given how good Tau are at doing S5 hits on things.

The cost of a ghostkeel, stealth team, homing beacon and crisis team seems absurdly high for the effect. And it's not like it's even that effective against all opponents. 9 flamers do 1.75 wounds on a Custodes unit, for example, or kill a single intercessor in cover. They do 10.5 wounds on orks, which is sort of ok - but still probably worth less than a single crisis suit costs. And you have to stand within 8" of orks for it to work.

Getting 9 FB within shooting distance of an HQ is worth it though.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Getting 9 FB within shooting distance of an HQ is worth it though.

No it isn’t. That crisis team costs 315 points; the stealths with their homing beacon cost 104 and the ghostkeel costs ~150-200. That’s way more than any HQ I can think of costs.

And in any case homing beacons don’t let you make the HQ the nearest target. If an HQ is behind a screening unit then they’ll still be behind it. WoM only lets you move the stealths to just outside of 9” of an enemy, so that enemy will still be closer than the HQ when the crisis suits open up.

The whole thing seems to be just an expensive (in points and CPs) way to get Tau close to things. But Tau don’t usually want to be close to things. The WoM stratagem seems more like it’s designed to extract stealth suits from trouble, not get them into it. Indeed a better use might be to have them drop their beacon and then get the hell out of dodge.

If you do really want to get fusion blasters near to stuff then I suggest giving them to a coldstar commander, or possibly a ghostkeel. A coldstar can actually fly next to an HQ and fire 4 fusion blasters into its face, and requires none of these shenanigans (or costs) to do so.

I was just reaching for something better than flamers (which I don't understand the obsession with, they're awful in 8th), but regardless I don't think crisis suits should be taken at all in their current state.