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Yeah fair enough. I share your skepticism of flamer suits and I appreciate wanting to make crisis suits work. Personally I think CIBs might be viable, maybe.

Analyzing cost like that is deceptive. If you're already taking stealths (which you should be) and a Ghostkeel, which is common, then those points aren't a tax. The tax at that point is the cost of the beacon. Possibly also the cost of the suits, but this could also be used to position Fusion Commanders, which are also common in a lot of builds. It's not by definition a cost intensive idea when a lot of people are already taking the component parts. I agree that a Coldstar does a lot of the same things, but not everyone owns 3+ Coldstar models.

Is this idea a top-drawer tourney idea? Probably not, but I can still see it getting mileage in a lot of solid builds

20 points for a homing beacon or 14 points to become a Coldstar commander? I know which I'd rather have for getting 4 FB up close. Also not everyone will be running ghost keels, at least not as commonly as stealth suits. I'd say WOM is probably far better used just as mobility for stealth suits.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
20 points for a homing beacon or 14 points to become a Coldstar commander? I know which I'd rather have for getting 4 FB up close. Also not everyone will be running ghost keels, at least not as commonly as stealth suits. I'd say WOM is probably far better used just as mobility for stealth suits.

I agree completely. That said, for someone who doesn't have 3+ Coldstars, or likes to run Crisis, the usefulness changes a little.

Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...

8 cibs, DC, some drones.

So it's generally better to get a 4th weapon on a cmmdr than to get a support system right?

Aeri wrote:
Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...

8 cibs, DC, some drones.

I think one of the major problems with crisis suits is that they really need markerlights and right now most people don't know how much markerlight support you need and how to manage your marker light support on the table. Because crisis suits want to use your marker lights but so do your broad sides and so do your riptides and while broad sides and riptides kinda fire at the same targets crisis suits usually hunt down a different target. So the question is how many marker lights do you bring to reliably get 5 marker lights on 2 targets and at that point are you spending too much points on support that could be going to more offense that might not need marker support.

I think with support all our units are really strong but it is that support that is the real variable.

my crisis are accompanied by 4 Gun Drones and 2 Marker Drones.

I have Darkstrider and a Fireblade on the field aswell as 2x5 units of pathfinders.
Also, all my Firewarriors squads have 1 ML.

I ALWAYS start with Darkstrider/Fireblade Markerlights. followed by my Drones and a squad of pathfinders if need be. Sometimes I use the stratagem for extra ML.

My secondary target gets lit up by firewarriors and the other pathfinder team.

2x5 ML is NO problem at all.

Even if all you have is the Marksmen and Fireblades people normally take to fill a battalion, plus the stratagem, you've got a pretty good weight of ( non-targetable) markerlights. Toss in some Pathfinders in small, why-bother-targeting-them-sized units and it's probably just dandy. Three Fireblades, three marksmen, and the strat averages 7.5 ML hits.

If you're playing at least some Tau Sept for Darstrider, and have a decent amount of other buffs floating around (plus focused fire), the Tau have a lot of ways to buff shooting damage.

Aeri wrote:
Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...

8 cibs, DC, some drones.

Told you guys, great Crisis configuration.

Somebody mentioned Plasma Rifles earlier, and I feel they are just such a blah choice right now. If Crisis suits were 12-18 points cheaper and/or Plasma Rifles did 2 Damage, then you'd be talking. As it is, its 225 points for a unit with 9 Plasma Rifles and 288 for a unit with 9 CIBs, which are significantly more efficient at killing anything except T3 light and medium infantry (and then you'd want Flamers or Burst Cannon, or just a Strike Team).

Aeri wrote:
Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...

8 cibs, DC, some drones.

Yeah, I really don't think that's going to happen often.

So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.

A bitch-dying cruise missile is not a good plan. You want him to have stuff around him to eat wounds so he can keep dozing out 4 fusions per turn. You'll see people mention how difficult it is to keep Commanders alive, but they're doing it wrong. It's great to get into half range for the better damage, but you're not exactly slumming it with 4 normal fusion shots. Have him roll with some Stealth Suits, a Ghostkeel, drones, etc, so that they all have to get shot first.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.

Fusion-star is nice with viorla; lets you move 40 and drop the shots.

MilkmanAl wrote:A bitch-dying cruise missile is not a good plan. You want him to have stuff around him to eat wounds so he can keep dozing out 4 fusions per turn. You'll see people mention how difficult it is to keep Commanders alive, but they're doing it wrong. It's great to get into half range for the better damage, but you're not exactly slumming it with 4 normal fusion shots. Have him roll with some Stealth Suits, a Ghostkeel, drones, etc, so that they all have to get shot first.

Very good point. I am running a Ghostkeel and a Stealth unit, plus some drones (although those are going to accompany my Riptide). I can also scout move some Kroot forward, and I am running a squad of Breachers in a Devilfish, which can help screen the commander. Now I'm wondering if I should spend a CP to take the T'au relic (JSJ thingy) on him, allowing him to move forward, blast something, and then retreat behind other units. I've got lots of CP, so I can afford to spend one on a second relic if necessary (free one is PEN on a Fireblade).

davou wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.

Fusion-star is nice with viorla; lets you move 40 and drop the shots.

My list is pure T'au sept in a brigade; Vior'la wouldn't help the list much. I do agree though, and I'll consider it for future lists.

Heck, I might as well post my list and see what everyone thinks:

I put a random Markerlight on the one Strike team because I had 3 points spare, so why not? I also considered taking the Fusion Collider on the Ghostkeel instead of the Ion Raker, but I like the Raker better. I am a little concerned about what I'll do if I face an armor-heavy list, but hopefully I've got enough volume of fire to make the difference.

That looks like a decent list to me. I’ll look forward to hearing how you get on.

I’m planning an xv85 commander with the jsj relic. Thinking about it, it probably makes sense to add the PEN to a fireblade for a CP. it’s kind of bound to repay itself, and I get a limited reroll anyway.

The thing I am (slowly) learning with coldstars is not to be so aggressive with them. It's the whole "wait for the opportune moment" thing. Positioning for Tau with commanders is incredibly important. Don't just fly him out 40" and let him die. Get him to a spot to do damage but also survive.

Mostly out of sheer stubberness, i'm not letting any amount of frowning mathmaticly proven naysay take my suits from me!

At 50PL i'm looking to bring a Commander, Ghostkeel, Crisis team and two teams of stealth suits with drones sprinkled in. God knows how its going to do, but I love the suit designs more than I like firewarrior uberxenos.

Looks like a solid list up above, but I would drop a couple Pathfinders and rearrange the Fire Warriors so you can add in a Tau Battalion.

I think the JSJ relic is definitely worth a CP since we often have so many to use. It's really great for keeping those coldstars alive. Your first relic should basically always be the PEN, of course.

As for taking Bunches of suits regardless of efficacy, I'm pretty sure that's what drew most of us to Tau in the first place. I doubt many were overwhelmed by how cool Fire Warriors are and just HAD to start a Tau army. More power to you, man!

MilkmanAl wrote:
Looks like a solid list up above, but I would drop a couple Pathfinders and rearrange the Fire Warriors so you can add in a Tau Battalion.

I think the JSJ relic is definitely worth a CP since we often have so many to use. It's really great for keeping those coldstars alive. Your first relic should basically always be the PEN, of course.

As for taking Bunches of suits regardless of efficacy, I'm pretty sure that's what drew most of us to Tau in the first place. I doubt many were overwhelmed by how cool Fire Warriors are and just HAD to start a Tau army. More power to you, man!

I think I'm the only one who picked largely because fire warriors are pretty cool looking to me. Breachers even moreso. I could have giant walking robots with the Imperium as well, even if they aren't that sexy. But other than Primaris, I find their infantry to be pretty dull unless you go for it metal ones, regardless the army.

I've been thinking about Farsight bomb, my main force is Viorla, but I could add Farsight Enclaves strike force in. As there was previous discussion about this tactic, I made this version;

FARSIGHT ENCLAVES VANGUARD
-Commander Farsight
-Stealth Team (2x burst cannon, fusion blaster, homing beacon)
-Ghostkeel (cyclic ion raker, 2x burstcannon, shield generator)
-Crisis Bodyguards (6, 6x shield generator, 6x fusion blaster, 2x plasmagun, 2x burstcannon, 2x flamer)

So, the Stealth Team and Ghostkeel deploy just outside enemy zone. At start of the movement phase, use Wall of Mirrors to re-deploy Stealth Team 9" away from enemy (propably a Knight or something as heavy). Then Stealth Team uses their homing beacon within 1", and at the end of the movement phase crisis team and Farsight drops near enemy. They could also use Drop Zone Clear (I really like the sound of that) stratagem and even add that stratagem that allows suites to re-roll wounds. This is very expensive configuration, so I might use it only at apocalypse sized games.

So, what do you guys think of it?

I think a Farsight bomb is a decent idea in theory, but you’re could use refining a bit.

Drop zone clear has great synergy with CIBs. I’d just give every suit 3 of them.

For protection, instead of shields I’d give one or two of them iridium armour. Then have them drop in with a ton of assorted drones.

Farsight is quite cool for using CNC node, as he doesn’t spend much on his own firepower.

I don’t think there’s any need for wall of mirrors. A ghostkeel is of course a great unit but I’d consider just taking two cheap units of stealths, and putting a DC in each one.

I've put some thought into crisis bombs. I think they could definitely work, but to get the most out of the bomb, I think you've got to go whole-hog. Max out your unit at 9 so that Drop Zone Clear is appropriately named. Take a bunch of gun drones for protection and to eliminate screens. Maybe pair with Sa'cea for easy and reliable marker support. As noted, a crisis bomb is CIB or bust. Nothing else is really cost effective on them anyway, other than flamers.

Edit: To flesh the above statement out a little, I'm thinking that 9 Crisis Suits is the best way to roll since the buffs to that one unit can be so immense, particularly on the first turn. With DZC, full marker support, and C&C node, they do something like 70 wounds to a T7/3+ frame. It's a heinously expensive unit, but that's some serious pain, too. 5 vehicles down without breaking a sweat.

Where that strategy may fall through is if you just can't get enough targets in range to kill. You'll likely have to invest in some stealth suits for forward board presence so that you at least have somewhere to land. You'll also probably want a bunch of drones coming in so that you actually have a chance of repeating your CIB massacre.

It's a weird rec, but I think you're probably best off with a bare-bones xv8 buffmander running a DC. You want something up front allowing those suits to reroll wounds. I can certainly see the value in giving said commander fusion blades in case something manages to charge you, though that probably isn't worth the hassle.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I've put some thought into crisis bombs. I think they could definitely work, but to get the most out of the bomb, I think you've got to go whole-hog. Max out your unit at 9 so that Drop Zone Clear is appropriately named. Take a bunch of gun drones for protection and to eliminate screens. Maybe pair with Sa'cea for easy and reliable marker support. As noted, a crisis bomb is CIB or bust. Nothing else is really cost effective on them anyway, other than flamers.

Edit: To flesh the above statement out a little, I'm thinking that 9 Crisis Suits is the best way to roll since the buffs to that one unit can be so immense, particularly on the first turn. With DZC, full marker support, and C&C node, they do something like 70 wounds to a T7/3+ frame. It's a heinously expensive unit, but that's some serious pain, too. 5 vehicles down without breaking a sweat.

Where that strategy may fall through is if you just can't get enough targets in range to kill. You'll likely have to invest in some stealth suits for forward board presence so that you at least have somewhere to land. You'll also probably want a bunch of drones coming in so that you actually have a chance of repeating your CIB massacre.

It's a weird rec, but I think you're probably best off with a bare-bones xv8 buffmander running a DC. You want something up front allowing those suits to reroll wounds. I can certainly see the value in giving said commander fusion blades in case something manages to charge you, though that probably isn't worth the hassle.

That's going to cost you 1k points though if you include the accompanying drones for protection. 1300 including the Commander and Stealth Suits, and around 1500 if you also want to take a Ghostkeel along to catapult the Stealth Suits to a good Homing Beacon spot turn 1. I guess it could work, but if you don't get turn 1 your opponent only has to kill either the Stealth suits or the Ghostkeel and reposition so that you don't get a good killzone upon coming in, and since you're keeping 1.2k points in deepstrike not deepstriking in turn 1 isn't an option either. I say too many eggs in one basket.

It's a gimmick list, no doubt. Even if you tone the bomb down a lot, it's still really expensive to do properly. You shouldn't get tabled if you miss the first turn, but you're definitely at a big disadvantage, assuming your opponent is smart enough to spread a little and deny you a decent drop location.

Trying to work out a Crisis Bomb list a with supporting Broadside backline for that metric F-ton of dice on target each turn, but can’t seem to get it to work.

1x unit of 6 Crisis with CIB dropping as FSE

2x unit of 3 Missile-Sides

3x unit of 4-5 Shield Drones to shenanigan Wounds off the Broadsides

2-3 Fireblade Cadre

3+ Marksman

Maybe Shadowson? Maybe Farsight? Probably a Coldfusion?

Just doesn’t seem to jell as a list for me, despite looking fantastic in concept for tabling by turn 3 most opponents. Anyone build something similar? How did it play for you?

SJ

So I did play a game last night with the list that I posted above. The mission was kill points, and my opponent was running infantry heavy Astra Militarum, with a battalion of Vostroyans and a battalion of Militarum Tempestus. I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones. I'm still pretty happy with how the list performed overall, and I intend to use it as-is in a tournament tomorrow, with the exception of that I will spend a CP to give the Coldstar the JSJ item. Here's how I feel about each unit I brought:
Coldstar with 4 Fusions: If I had played him smarter, he would have accomplished a lot more. That 40 inch move is crazy cool, and he did last a couple of turns before biting the sand. That Neuroweb System Jammer stratagem is really fun, and with the long movement you can use it on just about anything that you want to gimp the shooting on (like DA Hellblasters...)
Cadre Fireblades: Very solid HQ choice, and very cheap. I actually charged one of them into combat with Scions near the end and killed them (only 2 left in that unit); 3 attacks at WS3+ and 5 wounds isn't terrible in CC as long as you are only attacking GEQ. I mainly used them for BS2+ markerlights.
Darkstrider: Kind of a lame duck in my game; my Breachers he was with already were wounding their target on 2's, and that wasn't until late in the game when I finally disembarked them from the Devilfish. Needs further study before I can pass judgement.
Strike Teams: As far as I could tell, they seemed to do their job okay. I never got assaulted, so the T'au sept tenet never came into play. S5 is very nice on basic troops though.
Kroot Carnivores: Not terribly useful in my game, but I do like the fact that they get to scout up for some nice deepstrike denial. In future I'll probably get a few more so I can run 2 units to screen a little better.
Breacher Team: I love these guys! They take a bit of finesse to use and are probably better in a Vior'la sept detachment than T'au, but wounding GEQ on 2's within 5 inches is money. They made their points back in one shooting phase when they wiped out a 10-man Scion squad.
Stealth Suits: I didn't play them smart at all, so I really can't comment. Next time I think I can do better.
Ghostkeel: Solid, if not great. My loadout on this guy was kinda janky, but that's because like a dope I glued the fusion blasters on him (but thankfully not the main weapon). The -1 to be hit was solid gold and kept him alive far longer than he should have lived (he survived the game).
Riptide: Riptides are back, baby! Rate of fire can help with targets that have an invul save (especially if you nova charge the gun), and ATS can help chew through cheap bodies. The double nova strat is great and helped me survive getting hit with plasma while retaining the super firepower.
Shield Drones: These things are obnoxious for savior protocols for sure. I'll probably bring a few every time as the big suits need the protection due to being bullet magnets. Too bad they can't protect a Stormsurge though.
Pathfinders: Kind of hit or miss for me. Cheap source of markerlights, but I rolled poorly most of the time. The Ion Rifles also rolled fairly crap, so I need to try them again to see if they are actually okay.
Broadsides: With ATS they can dish out some pain, but they need markerlights to make the most of their volume of fire. Plasma eats these guys for breakfast, too, as I learned the hard way.
Hammerhead: I friggin' love this thing! The Ion Cannon is wonderful and should be spammed. Next time I make a list, I'll probably give him SMS instead of burst, regardless of the increased cost.
Devilfish: Expensive for what it does. Better than a Rhino, but worse than a Wave Serpent (but then, Wave Serpents are not a fair comparison, right?). Breachers need one of these or they just don't work.

Crisis Bomb list I was fiddling with about a week ago:

Sa'cea Brigade
Coldstar - 4 fusions - 174
1 Fireblade - 42
1 Ethereal - 45
3 Firesight Marksmen - 75
6x5 FW - 210
3x5 Pathfinders - 120
3x3 Sniper Drones - 162
828

FSE Vanguard
XV8 Commander - DC - 77
9 Crisis Suits - 3 CIBs - 864
3 Stealth Suits - 84
Firesight Marksman - 25
10 Gun Drones - 120

I don't know that the Brigade is necessary, and you could easily fit in another large suit (Ghostkeel would be amazeballs) if you just made it a Battalion with as many markers as you wanted. It's just food for thought.

As for Including Broadsides with a Crisis Bomb, you may be trying to do too much. The Crisis Bomb and Broadsides are both going to require a fair amount of stratagem and marker support to maximize their potential, and both cost an assload of points to run properly. You might be able to wrangle everything you need in a list with some sacrifices. Let's try! I'll use your template since that's basically what I'd want, too.

FSE Vanguard
XV8 Commander - DC - 77
5 Crisis Suits - 3 CIBs - 480
2x3 Stealth Suits - 168
10 Gun Drones - 120

Sa'cea Battalion
Coldstar - 4 fusions - 174
Fireblade - 42
3x5 Fire Warriors - 1 marker per unit - 114
3x5 Pathfinders - 120

Tau Battalion
Coldstar - 4 fusions - 174
Fireblade - 42
3x5 Fire Warriors - 105
2x4 Shield Drones- 80
2 Broadsides - 2 HYMP, 2 SMS, ATS - 304

2000 Total

Well, that's an okay Crisis Bomb with 2 reasonably well protected Broadsides. I chose Tau for the latter with the idea of creating a little death ball in your backfield with all the marker support and Tau things clustered for maximum overwatch annoyance, but Borkan would be killer, too, for 36" SMS. I thought about scrapping the Sa'cea Battalion and going for a Vanguard instead, but you really need CP where you can get it. Even starting with 10, you'll probably be fairly starved for them after the first few turns between marker light splashing, DZC, and C&CN. FSE doesn't offer anything at all to Fire Warriors, so I figured I might as well have them in Sa'cea. I also wanted to keep the Coldstars around since it'll be relatively easy to protect them with all the forward units around. You could probably drop a Pathfinder unit and move things around some, but I wanted to reliably have 10 marker hits available without strats since you have 2 units that are ravenously reliant on them. It's not a perfect list, by any means, but again, it's food for thought!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.

I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.

Lemondish wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.

I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.

It is per unit of drones not per single drone