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Mothboi666 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.

I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.

It is per unit of drones not per single drone

No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.

Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Mothboi666 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.

I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.

It is per unit of drones not per single drone

No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.

Might want to bulk up those Pathfinder drone units. They're all really cheap, especially the recon drone.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Mothboi666 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.

I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.

It is per unit of drones not per single drone

No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.

As Lemondish pointed out, you should use additional drones in those units for obvious reasons. Even if you aren't playing kill points, in an edition where everyone can split fire pretty much every player will just toss 1-2 Heavy Bolters at the drone and remove it from play instantly. Take a Recon drone and a shield or gun drone and they instantly become a much less attractive target than the blob of fire warriors they buff (unless you take a grav drone, in which case any player who wants to charge you WILL focus fire them).

I'm genuinely surprised that the "special" Drones didn't get given some kind of rule where they had effectively Character status for targeting in shooting.

Yeah it really kills ghostkeels as they are paying for something that they rarely get a bonus from, super helped by the fact that the drones themselfs don't have the same to hit modifier either.

So, now having played a tournament with that list, I can pretty much confirm most of my commentary about the units. I really love Stealth suits, as they are not too expensive and are trolltastic against something with a lot of weak shooting (like Guard). I use them in the same role as Chaos players use Nurglings or Marine players use Scouts, but I think they are better. I'm going to take 2 units most of the time from now on. The Ghostkeel was fun and only went down once, but he's only very good against another shooty army, and his drones were always killed immediately to deny him getting a -2 to hit.

My opponents were Tau (in what was very much a mirror match), Astra Militarum (infantry spam with a lot of Scions), and Necrons (kind of a little bit of everything built around Imotekh). I won against the AM, but I lost both other games. All three games were very close. Against the Tau, I can think of just a couple of die rolls that if they gone my way, it would have swung the game. Against the Necrons, I deployed way too conservatively, which kept most of my Fire Warriors and stuff out of range to deal with Immortals in cover. I nearly killed Imotekh with a Stealth Suit's fusion blaster, as I hit, wounded, he failed his invulnerable save and I rolled a 6 for damage, but he had a stratagem to let him get back up with one wound remaining (he made the required roll). My opponent was also rolling pretty hot with his saves, too.

In future I think I may go with more suits. The downside of a Brigade is that you only get one Commander, although the large number of command points was clutch for me, especially when I was regenerating them with the PEN. While I was at the tournament, I bought a Y'vahra from a friend of mine, so now I'm working on how to use it well. My current list idea is to run kind of a "Tauzilla" list with some big suits and a couple of Commanders, plus a few Fire Warriors to fill Battalions and hold objectives. I'm thinking two Battalions with a Stormsurge in a SHA detachment. One of the Battalions will be Bor'kan (for the Riptide and Y'vahra), the other will be T'au, and the Stormsurge will probably be T'au if I take the Pulse Driver, but Bor'kan if I go with the Blastcannon. I figure if I have several big targets it'll be hard for my opponent to have enough heavy firepower to deal with them effectively, plus they can't be locked in combat. I'll also have some Shield Drones around to protect the big guys, especially the Y'vahra (since he can't increase his invul save outside of CC).

So I have come to the realization that pathfinders aren't going to able to cut it. Good players - will figure out a way to kill every pathfinder on the table - even if you are hiding them turn 1.

In order to use them you are ether going to have to put them in a drone port - which in turns means you will lose a commander slot or you are going to have to take so many of them to the point it will not be worth it. Not happy about this but it's the way she goes. I really wanted to use them in combination with Master of war for reroll hits but it relies too much on the opponent being clueless to actually work.

What does this mean? I think it mean we are going to have to use marker drones (because they don't have to start on the table) Which in turns means we are gonna need a drone controller (somewhere). For me - the best place to put DC is ether on a broadside with HRR or a Riptide with IA. Kind of a shame because I probably wasn't going to include ether of those in my most nasty lists. I guess a 3 missle pod commander with DC is also an option or just a buffmander (this seems like a waste though).

You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.

How would you do it?

Battalion with firewarriors with ML
or
Vanguard with Firesite marksmen?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.

How would you do it?

Battalion with firewarriors with ML
or
Vanguard with Firesite marksmen?

I'd lean towards the Vanguard with Firesight Marksmen, yeah. I'd even throw a unit of Sniper Drones in to take advantage of the Sa'cea trait(reroll single failed hit roll per turn).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.

How would you do it?

Battalion with firewarriors with ML
or
Vanguard with Firesite marksmen?

Easy. One Outrider detachement into which you cram all your Railsides, Firesight Markmen, Pathfinders (unless you are already running Bor'kan and prefer the extra range over the much increased reliability), tactical drone squads (much welcome Ld buff) and any Stealth Suits/Piranhas with Fusion Blasters that you plan to run. Take an Ethereal for the super charged Ld 10 + FnP bubbles if you are running a bunch of fire warriors. He is cheap, has huge synergy with FW blobs of any sept and can trigger the Sa'Cea Markerlight strat. Cadre Fireblades are quite overpriced if they ain't got any FWs to buff and can only toss their markerlight.

Brigade can work depending how desperate you are for CP and have the points for a Commander + Ethereal/Cadre FB, though I prefer to run two T'au Battalions with a cheap auxiliary Sa'cea Outrider det. with an Ethereal and the three units of pathfinders I use, as well as Railsides and any potential fusion blaster toting stealthsuit teams (if they don't have one they end up T'au) and the odd firesight marksman.

Hi, have a game tomorrow and have a list decided upon - but I could use a pointer on deciding one of the Sept Tenant (left blank below)

Vior’la Battalion Detachment

Cadre Fire Blade (Warlord - Academy Luminary) = 42pts

Enforcer Commander - 4 Cyclic Ion Blasters = 148pts

5 Strikes = 35pts
6 Strikes = 42pts
Devilfish - 1 Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones = 112pts

12 Strikes = 84pts
Devilfish - 1 Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones = 112pts

Sa’cea Outrider Detachment

Enforcer Commander - 4 Cyclic Ion Blasters; Puretide Engram Neurochip= 148pts

6 Stealth Suits - Drone Controller = 173pts
6 Stealth Suits - Drone Controller = 173pts

6 Marker Drones = 60pts
6 Marker Drones = 60pts
6 Marker Drones = 60pts

Insert Sept Vanguard Detachment

Enforcer Commander - 3 Cyclic Ion Blasters, Advanced Targeting System= 142pts

Ghostkeel - Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters, Target Lock, Shield Generator = 203pts

Ghostkeel - Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters, Target Lock, Shield Generator = 203pts

Ghostkeel - Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters, Target Lock, Shield Generator = 203pts

Total = 2000pts / 9 CP

For the vanguard of Ghostkeels I am pretty open to ideas of a Sept?

Sa'cea gets them a free re-roll and has some synergy with the stealth suits / marker drones.

FSE boosts their reliability at short range.

Bork'an increases the range of the Cyclic Ion Raker.

T'au increases over-watch and unlocks the focused fire stratagem if something tough really needs to die. I'll probably be running the 3 Ghostkeels and commander close to each other.

I think I'd run them as Tau for Focused Fire and deterring charges. I know you said you're set on this list, but man, if you're running Viorla, you've got to have a Coldstar. Free 20" advances! Furthermore, I'm not sure what Viorla gets you that you're so interested in. The Sept trait is complete garbage in general and in particular for your list, and the strat is better used on Breachers than Strikers. I assume you're planning to have 12 hot-blooded Fire Warriors? That could be nice, but I feel like you can get 24 more S5 shots elsewhere without spending 2 CP. I think you'd be better off with Tau for synergy with your Ghostkeels or Borkan for more range.

Cheers, don’t own any Coldstars!

Vior’la has the +1 CP warlord trait and extended aura range. The double stratagem on the 12 strikes throws out 72 st5 shots at 15 range (combined with fire blade). The tenant itself I think is okay for a commander, strikes and devilish for some added mobility.

I could be convinced to go Bork’an on the Battalion, but Vior’la has plenty going for it imo.

Fair enough! I do sort of like the idea of a small Viorla Battalion rushing forward to dump a ton of S5 out, but I think you need at least 2 units to make that strategy viable. I guess the question I'd have in that case is if 12+d6" of movement is enough to reliably get you within 15" of a target. If so, you can save points on Devilfish and just run your Strikers up the board. They're more fragile that way, but they also get to shoot after the first turn instead of squatting in a Devilfish. If that's not good enough, is the extra 3" from being in a Devilfish enough to allow you to start double-firing all over the place on turn 2?

Regardless of how you get there, I like the idea of Ghostkeels running interference and posing a forward threat. They're potentially rock solid for the cost and make your Fire Warriors much less interesting to your opponent.

Ice_can wrote:
Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.

Drones can take wounds for drones, yes? Dont have the codex with me. Seems like you can protect them in that way. Maybe

 Jancoran wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.

Drones can take wounds for drones, yes? Dont have the codex with me. Seems like you can protect them in that way. Maybe

They can't. Saviour Protocols only protect infantry and battlesuits. Drones are neither.

Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.

Wolf Lord Balrog wrote:
Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.

no. nobody ever thought of it or even did it. never.

Wolf Lord Balrog wrote:
Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.

From what i can gather, shield drones for the GhostKeel make an already difficult to kill model absurdly diffcult to kill. The only issue is that the GhostKeel can't take drones with it (beyond its stealth drones) to its infiltrated start position. However if you pair it with a unit of stealthsuits, they are able to take a few drones that can then immidiately move to cover the 'Keel. In this arrangement you get to use the wall of mirrors strategem as well.


Speaking of drones, i'm putting together a broadside kit and i've noted that it (along with the riptide) get special "missile drones". Is it worth assembling these missile drones for the extra dakka alongside a HYMP broadside or are they a little too expensive for their points and I should focus instead on turning them into the shield and marker drones that my 5th edition army still so sorely lacks.

Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG

Ice_can wrote:
Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG

Theres not nothing you can do. You can hide them - it is actually pretty easy to hide one of them behind the ghost-keel itself. Ultimately - you should take the SG anyways - ghostkeels are going to be charged a lot and 4++ save could mean you could surive some heavy CC damage.

My guard playing friend tends to use IS mortors to pick on them so los isn't an issue, as guard tanks at -2 to hit is not a massive theat to my keel. Especially when I can drone off the one or two he might make. He views it as an efficent use as he only takes them to make 9man squads anyway.

Ice_can wrote:
Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG

Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.

 meleti wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG

Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.

Exactly - the drone has T6 too doesn't it? So even the random heavy bolter is going to struggle to take them down.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG

Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.

Exactly - the drone has T6 too doesn't it? So even the random heavy bolter is going to struggle to take them down.

It's T4 with a 4+ save. Napkin math says a single BS4 mortar rerolling 1s does an expected 0.34 wounds.

I've taken to giving them shield generators anyway, (hopefully they can't change them back to the big suit price) but I just wish I could not take the drones and stop giving away easy unit kills.
If the keel and drones where 1 unit fine make them mandatory, but the forced 2 drone independent unit is always mugged turn 1.

Shield generator is so cheap that it's a huge pity not to pick one, especially on your monster you are going to place solo 12" away from the opponent.

As for the stealth drones, what kind of terrain do you guys use in your games where hiding one drone is impossible?

Terrain doesn't matter to non line of sight weapons like mortars. From very little to full can't place a LOW base cityscapes, but normally probably actually a higher level than most tournament tables as it usually still looks too bare with tournament terrain.