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On a ven dread using rerolls of 1 strategm and standing still against t8 3+saves
with ML + heavy plasma is 57pts per wound
With ML + twin lascannon is 29pts per wound
With twin auto Cannon + twin lascannon Is 28pts per wound.
Shooting against invul saves makes everything much worse.
A tank cmdr with cadia, reroll 1, firing turret twice, reroll number of shots order:
Plasma executioner plasma sponsons and lascannon is 22pts per wound (best long distance tank I use) and comes with 50% more wounds and +1t
Dreadnought burns 1 cp (unless you bring a character to hang out with him, then wasting that character) to reroll 1s and is still less efficient than the tank commander at distance.
Then if the tank CC has his buddy already hit the target, then use overlapping fields of fire and the next commander loaded the same goes hyper efficient at 14 pts per wound caused.
Vendread is better than what we had mono codex, but still externally not balanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 01:07:22
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?
Not anymore.
If you want those Ven Dreads to be more effective, better cluster them up next to each other and spend a CP to reroll your hits.
It actually isn't a terribly strategy for Grey Knights and the only time I approve of that ghastly Strategem, if only because it means they can be deployed elsewhere without a babysitter. I know at minimum I'd try it with Deathwatch, though they can get cheaper babysitters and can camp and such.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Really?
Normal dreddy best then venerable?
I can't agree. normal dreddy aren't neither in the best units list.
And I agree that with TLC are better than plasma cannon. In particular after the points drop.
Anyway I just sold my GK army. I shipped them yesterday and I'm a little sad But I'm sure that GK will take no care about them (as in the last 2 years) and probably they will be united to SM or cancelled since they told us that GW will not have the Primaris treatment.
So it was a hard choice but necessary (for me).
Smotejob wrote: Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.
Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.
Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.
I agree. Especially when you compare the same points-worth of strikes to Deathwatch vets...
Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.
Make all vehicles psyhic pilot and know psybolt and all non laser guns affected. Bolters to autocannon to assault cannons to psilencer.
The wish listing...
I will keep my 3 gkhq iso of my guard
Mate... there are so many great and plausible ways to fix GK:
- Full smite
- Psybolt ammo for everyone with a stormbolter (not even as good as Deathwatch ammo so why not?)
- DKs ignore heavy weapons when moving and shooting
- 85pts Strike Squads
- NDK teleporters giving 12" move and ignore terrain/intervening models (why the sudden downgrade from 7th ed?)
Amongst others
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?
Psychic onslaught mate. It's psybolt ammo but for Psilencers/Psycannons. Super key on the NDKGM.
Really?
Normal dreddy best then venerable?
I can't agree. normal dreddy aren't neither in the best units list.
And I agree that with TLC are better than plasma cannon. In particular after the points drop.
Anyway I just sold my GK army. I shipped them yesterday and I'm a little sad But I'm sure that GK will take no care about them (as in the last 2 years) and probably they will be united to SM or cancelled since they told us that GW will not have the Primaris treatment.
So it was a hard choice but necessary (for me).
Wasn't written in any particular order mate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cos wrote: If yo do not like dread. What is te Best anti-tank in a pure GK list? Because i don't see any pure gk list without three venerable dread (ML-twin LC)
Sorry to say but there is no effective pure GK list. You will just crumple and lose.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 15:05:05
Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.
This is one of the most reasonable and interesting ideas I've seen for GKs with the exception of hammerhand. Having a unique psybolt power (probably needs to be WC7) that allows them to use that on their weapons (instead of a crazy costed 2CP strat) would make them great. I don't think you need to add hammerhand. I do think that only GK strike and interceptor squads should get this, vehicles should still have to use a strat (at 1CP). Purgation sqds and NDKs should get the equivalent power but affects psychic onslaught for psycannons and psilencers.
Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.
This is one of the most reasonable and interesting ideas I've seen for GKs with the exception of hammerhand. Having a unique psybolt power (probably needs to be WC7) that allows them to use that on their weapons (instead of a crazy costed 2CP strat) would make them great. I don't think you need to add hammerhand. I do think that only GK strike and interceptor squads should get this, vehicles should still have to use a strat (at 1CP). Purgation sqds and NDKs should get the equivalent power but affects psychic onslaught for psycannons and psilencers.
The idea is that each until chooses between doing a mortal wound, charging their guns or charging their weapons depending on the situation.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
So, despite the car-crash that was CA, I've kind of fallen for the Paladin/GTK models. GTK are still disfavoured I understand, so what's the best way to use Paladins these days? Turn two deepstrike with char support? Or is there any value in Gate-ing a large unit of them turn one?
And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.
For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.
A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 52.30264%
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 77.2496184903 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %
Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct
I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)
And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.
For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.
A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 52.30264%
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 77.2496184903 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %
Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct
I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)
Incorrect, the main FAQ clarifies that you only need a roll of 9 inches to charge from what we call deepstrike (and they call Reinforcements), if it is not evident enough from the wording.
zinch wrote: I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)
Ummm say what? You have to deploy more than 9" away. So deploy 9.5" away. Move 9" charge forward. You are 0.5" away. If you are within 1" you are in combat. Ergo 9 is needed. You do NOT need to get into b2b contact to be in combat. Within 1" is enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 09:39:19
zinch wrote: I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)
Ummm say what? You have to deploy more than 9" away. So deploy 9.5" away. Move 9" charge forward. You are 0.5" away. If you are within 1" you are in combat. Ergo 9 is needed. You do NOT need to get into b2b contact to be in combat. Within 1" is enough.
You are right, ofc. I forgot you don't need to reach b2b to charge in this edition
I 'm returning from a time not playing 40k and I have not played many games of 8th edition. Luckily, in the last game I rolled a 10 for my DS charge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 09:46:33
General plan is GKI, GMDK, Glaives, and Errant rush forward T1. GMDK gets the Gate from the deployed Strikers. That's two large bodies with a 2++ and 3++ against shooting, as well as a psilencer and SBs to clear chaff.
Wave 2 is Voldus and the additional Strikes. Not a lot of counter-punch, but some decent survivability imo.
My question is about which Household Tradition I should take. Krast works well because I'm set up for melee and I want to rush the enemy lines. I like the Krast strat (melee 6s explode).
Raven would combo well bc I could advance one of the Glaives and then use Full Tilt (charge after advance) + Pack Hunters (reroll charge for Warglaives after a successful charge) for good chances on T1 stuck-in.
Or maybe even Hawk--their Strat (overwatch and then intervene 2d6 when a friendly unit is charged) would be great support for my aggressive GK contingent.
I ALSO am not entirely sold on the Warglaives vs Helverins, but I think it's the right choice bc of my list idea in general--having everything rush forward seems better than having a few targets sit in the back.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
I’ve had a couple games with a similar allied knight detachment with my Custodes, and after getting my big knight vaporized by a Gauss Pylon yesterday I think Taranis is 100% the way to go in this case. Your knight is really there as a fire sponge, to draw fire off your GMDK and to a lesser extent, your armigers. Inevitably you will face a list with a single big anti-tank gun, give the errant a 4++ and rotate job shields. After they kill it, get back up again cause even a knight with 2 wounds is still an objective holder and a threat.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Taranis or krast. Taranis great for durability, krast for some angry knights.
If taranis, armor of sainted ion with ion bulwark makes a crazy durable knight.
If krast, I like the headsmen mark. Makes it very scary to other big things quickly... But I would switch to a crusader or warden in that instance. Krast makes those warglaive more consistent
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Lots of time spent list building and coming up with different iterations. I've landed on a pure 2000pt GK list, no allies. As far as pure lists go, this may be the most competitive I could possibly think to make it.
List
Spoiler:
Points: 1999
CPs: 13
Drops: 14
ITC Secondaries: Recon, other two are situational.
Tactical Reserves makes this difficult, but not impossible. I'll cover my strategy against shooty lists, which are naturally our toughest competitor.
The most important decision point is what to do with your GMNDKs. Even if you deploy the GMNDK as far back as possible, some shooty lists ("Type 1") can still, statistically, pop him if they get first turn, since he'll only have a 4++. Other shooty lists ("Type 2") won't have enough range to pop a far-back GMNDK. If against a shooty list be sure to assess whether you're dealing with a Type 1 or Type 2 and react accordingly. As is standard, both GMNDK's have teleporters so if you're up against Type 1 you can keep them both safe in reinforcements. Of course, this will require excess Strike Squads to start on the field in order to obey the Tactical Reserves rule.
The ideal table deployment against a Type 2 shooty list squeaks in at 1,017 points and 7 out of 14 units on the table:
-1x GMNDK in the furthest away corner
-Draigo near enough to GMNDK that he can cast Gate on GMNDK Turn 1
-Stern near enough to Draigo that he can be Gated by Draigo on Turn 2
-Ven Dreads wherever they can have good LOS, preferably as many near Draigo's 6" aura as possible.
-1x Strike Squad (Gate) holding an objective or behind LOS. Preferably both.
Everything else in reinforcements.
Ideal Turn 1 Strategy
Spoiler:
Heed on GMNDK, then Sanctuary GMNDK, then Gate GMNDK up the board. Strongly consider spending 1CP on Psychic Channeling to ensure Sanctuary goes off, especially if opponent will be in Deny range.
Astral Aim whichever Ven Dread needs it.
Ideal Turn 2 & 3+ Strategy
Spoiler:
Heed on GMNDK, if he's still alive.
Deep strike 2nd GMNDK.
Deep strike Ancient.
Deep strike as many Strike Squads as are capable of finding value. Here I define value as any one of the following options:
(1) Landing on a free objective to secure VP.
(2) Finding $$$ Vortex placement for maximum chains to additional units.
(3) Clearing chaff with Storm Bolters.
(4) Landing safe behind LOS-blocking terrain whilst also threatening a 9" charge.
(5) Screening characters.
If these value options run-out, then keep remaining Strike Squads safe in reinforcements. I try never to place a Strike Squad where their value rests solely on rolling a successful 9" charge. That is a coinflip you never want to take unless forced.
Gate Stern next to Ancient. Perform D6 Smite combo, preferably on something with a nasty invulnerable save.
Smite and Purge Soul something with Stern. With +1 Leadership from the Ancient he's at Leadership 10, so his Purge Soul is low key scary and can result in crazy MWs with a little bit of luck. I love this little combo. Lots of opponents don't expect it, and if they roll low on the Leadership check it's a fun way to tax their CPs on reroll stratagems.
Sanctuary on 2nd GMNDK. Again, consider Psychic Channeling.
Ideal Turn 3+ By now Draigo can stop being a Ven Dread babysitter and actually join the party, if he hasn't already.
Comments, questions, and criticism welcome.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 04:14:32
I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
greyknight12 wrote: I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.
Interceptors are really good overall, at the new price I'd even (carefully) suggest they are very strong even compared to FA choices from most other codexes.
However CP are also really strong and necessary. If you aren't bringing the Loyal 32 your only options to earn them are Strikes or Terminators - I know what I'd choose.
I am brainstorming lists with MSU interceptor spam. I am trying to think who to Gate T1 to support 5 units of interceptors. At this stage I'm thinking Draigo over a GMDK, as he improves their SB and Psilencer fire even more. The GMDK can give first to the fray as well as better shooting, but I'm not expecting to have to rely on getting any charges off. Any infantry in rapid fire range of so many rerolling Storm Bolters are gonna be dead before the charge phase. Also you probably want to leave a bit of distance between yourself and the enemy line where possible, to avoid being charged/rapid fired easily. The interceptors can use their excellent movement the next turn to close in and get the charge off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 05:37:58
greyknight12 wrote: I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.
Thanks for the feedback.
Neither Psybolt Ammo (nor Psychic Onslaught) are really why I designed a two battalion list. Those I agree are bloated and over-costed stratagems. But there's a reason why many dominant meta lists contain two battalions. Aside from your standard re-roll and combat interrupt, I feel GK are CP hungry for a few stronger stratagems in our codex like Heed, Psychic Channeling, Only in Death Does Duty End, Mental Focus.
If Interceptors were troops I would 100% take them over Strikes. Alas, they're not. Don't let the 2-point drop fool you. Interceptors have suffered a pretty significant nerf recently in that they no longer ignore models/terrain outside of the Movement phase. That was a major blow to their charge potential. In my judgement the remaining benefits of Interceptors (mobility & capability of deploying on-the-table) do not outweigh the massive extra CP gained by taking Strikes.
Another, less pronounced (but still worth mentioning) advantage to Strikes over Interceptors is that Strike's ability to be held in deep strike literally saves their life in certain matchups. These are power armor marines we're talking about. If a Drukhari player gets first turn against an Interceptor-heavy list, you're looking at a lot of dead Interceptors to Venoms before those marines have gotten to do anything. So the ability to deepstrike actually benefits a Strike Squad's survivability. Edit: forgot Interceptors have Teleport Strike too.
Your 3x Outrider list idea wouldn't quite work in Matched play, as only 3x Interceptor Squads can be taken maximum, abiding by standard datasheet restriction rules. Still there's nothing awful about 1x Outrider detachment. As so much of GK's best units require deepstrike, Interceptors are a suitable way to tip the Tactical Reserves balance into a legal list. Though it's my judgement that Ven Dreads and Stormhawk Interceptors serve that function much better.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/12/22 15:04:33
Interceptors can be held on reserve too... They have teleport strike just like strike squads
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Now that I'm done pouting about GW's treatment of GK with Chapter Approved, here's a new list idea I wouldn't have tried before. The HQ points drop allow for a double Battalion of GK, despite the bastards at GW not actually dropping our Strike Squad price. And being able to field a double Battalion makes taking Brother Captains more worthwhile, since you can move up and effectively Smite things turn 1. I was definitely in the camp of "Bro Caps are garbage" before their points drop, but are worth looking at now. Maybe. I had already had good success with Paladins before the points drop, so all the more reason to keep using them. Anywho, here's my double Battalion with a Knight bullet sponge list:
1- Knight Crusader: Avenger Gatling/Thermal Cannon; pay CP to give him a Warlord Trait for better invul, and another CP for the relic Gatling Cannon
If you go second, use Prepared Positions; if not, move up and start smiting and stormboltering. Gate the Paladins into enemy lines and let them gum things up, eventually move Voldus up to support them. Knight takes a CP a round for Ion Shields and soaks up bullets.
Lately I have been having a lot of success with this list, specially against the Tau gunline that plague my meta.
Tbh it's only half GK but still quite fluffy imo (Inquisition stormtroopers, Gks and Knights of House Steel). If you want to be competitive I guess you could replace the scions for the loyal 32
Played a game against Tau today and wow the 2++ NDKGM is extremely hard for them to deal with. My NDKGM survived his entire turn one of shooting.
The NDKGM are perfect distraction pieces in this list whilst the Krast knight does a lot of the heavy lifting and once he got in charge range he removed all the Tau characters.
I still really like the Astral Aim Dread. As I didn't need Astral Aim on the NDKGM I kept casting on the Dread and he was just removing battlesuits every turn.
Remember to kill all the drones first turn one! Then the subsequent turns are a lot easier. Also remember the knight can heroically intervene 6' in their turn even if they haven't charged you.
I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?
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