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Even more so than just pure damage output.

There are some real implications in ITC where an opponent may have their units 3" away from an objective and your OBSEC troops can come in within 3" of them and steal that objective.

If I could take hold more or a bonus a few turns a game for 1CP, I absolutely would.

Dropping 3 Paladins in the opponent’s backfield on cover with a 1+ save and -1 to hit is going to be very difficult to remove.
I’m already super excited with just what’s been revealed so far, and we still have 5 more psychic powers, more relics, warlord traits, and chaplain rites.

 Jancoran wrote:

Aeri wrote:
I don't see where this would be useful to be honest :/

Purifiers

They don’t have Teleport Strike. But an Ancient with the banner of refining flame does.


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Another thing I noticed was the Cover tide doesn’t have a range restriction like Stealthy does. May get FAQ’d, and probably not a big deal anyway since you’ll be swapping to D2 smites once you get close but worth noting. It does make flyers interesting, though without Doctrines their damage will be lacking compared to SM.

Yeah that'll be the default go-to 'tide' for sure.

I think Brother Captains may become more of a staple too, I'd much rather have one of them over a BroChamp now for a cheaper HQ.

I envisage perhaps starting the battle with 2D smites enabled most of the time (just declare Prepared Positions if you don't go first) then using the 24" smite to start dealing out heaps of MW on your turn 1 psychic phase, before magically casting the power to change tide to auto-cover to weather the next enemy shooting phase. Have your cake and eat it too!

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Aeri wrote:
I don't see where this would be useful to be honest :/

Purifiers

They don’t have Teleport Strike. But an Ancient with the banner of refining flame does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I noticed was the Cover tide doesn’t have a range restriction like Stealthy does. May get FAQ’d, and probably not a big deal anyway since you’ll be swapping to D2 smites once you get close but worth noting. It does make flyers interesting, though without Doctrines their damage will be lacking compared to SM.

Ah. I see it.

So for me the biggest winner is the defensive tide.

You would obviously start with that as 50% of your army has to be on the board turn one.
Next you would swap either to better psi weapons or better smites, as a turn 2 charge is even with full rerolls unlikely. It could also be beneficial to keep the defensive tide for another turn.
In turn 3 however I would have to decide if I want better smites or better melee. I think rerolling 1s to wound is still better than 1 additional mortal wound, if you still have more than a few models in each unit alive.

I don't think spending a cp on a banner to drop it within 3'' is worth it. I rather think you should use it to drop a force multiplier on units already in combat.

In ties of shadows the wording "on or within a terrain feature" means that if a GK storm raven flies and ends its movement over a terrain feature all of a sudden it becomes a flier with 2+ save, 14 wounds T7 and -2 to hit?

The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

 Redemption wrote:
The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

Will have to wait and see what units get the "Masters of the Warp" rule which the tides apply to. Would be a fair assumption that it would only apply to the psyker keyword.

I’ll probably be sticking to smaller MSU size infantry squads anyway to maximize the gains I get from double smites, increased casts and CP.

I think one of the new rules should be that up to two units can arrive T1 using their Teleport Strike ability.
This is fluffy, as the Grey Knights are known for their precise and deadly teleportation strikes. (I recall reading a story where a unit of Termies shot straight into a building, past the gibbering daemon hordes, and blasted the cult leader as their initial assault.)
It would also lend some good mobility to a pure GK force.

Imagine a Paladin block and supporting character diving straight into the heart of things on the top of T1!

 Redemption wrote:
The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?

RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?

RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.

At the moment yes. But GW are known for outright ignoring the RAW because 'reasons'. See 5th edition Falchions.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?

RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.

It specifically says "units with this ability", and such a clause would logically only need to be included if there are units without the ability. So there's a decent chance units like Stormravens or Land Raiders will not get the Masters of the Warp ability, if they make rules follow fluff.

But yeah, they could go both ways, it's easily handwaved that the pilots are psychic like in older editions. But my experience with GW's rules is not to set your expectations too high.

But we'll know for certain tomorrow. Generally the YouTube reviews go up on Saturday.

There are 4 more psychic powers and 5 more litanies to go...but it would be awesome if just one of them allowed GK infantry - "Storm Bolter Combat."

When a GREY KNIGHT INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1" of enemy units, that storm bolter has a Profile type characteristic of Pistol 2 during the shooting phase.

Why? Because army-wide wrist-mounted storm bolters are awesome - and should have more rule flavour to match the usual Grey Knight lore / artwork:

 Redemption wrote:
So there's a decent chance units like Stormravens or Land Raiders will not get the Masters of the Warp ability, if they make rules follow fluff.

That's only if Masters of the Warp isn't the buff gained through fielding a Grey Knight only force they previewed weeks ago. All indications are that it is, so it would apply to LRs/SRs/DKs ect.
Edit: Called it. Enjoy those -2 to hit SRs.

From the N/R Thread:
Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s

Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn

Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)

Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
From the N/R Thread:

Spoiler:

Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s

Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn

Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)

Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.

Dreadknights are vehicles, so if you can screen the techmarine he could babysit the baby carrier I guess

 greyknight12 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.

Dreadknights are vehicles, so if you can screen the techmarine he could babysit the baby carrier I guess

Ya but i was only planning on fielding 1 or 2 tops, we have a ton of great support characters now it's a hard call. Standalone i still think they one of our strongest units, but in terms of synergising with the new abilities i think i'd rather try out one of these new Chaplains.

Aren't Chaplains colossal winners from the new rules? Litanies giving good buffs and a new list of good spells to choose from makes them go from sad melee-reroll bots to throwing out two relevant buffs per turn.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't Chaplains colossal winners from the new rules? Litanies giving good buffs and a new list of good spells to choose from makes them go from sad melee-reroll bots to throwing out two relevant buffs per turn.

I played a casual game agasint White Scars today, he was my WL and MvP, but there are so many new combos it's hard to keep track of everything. I'm positive i could have been more effective with my Tides as well. Ironically i think the Chaplain is now a better ranged support character than an assault one seeing as GW seems to be steering us towards a mid-field ranged force.

Once PA drops, are the changes substantial enough to warrant starting a new thread?

 greyknight12 wrote:
Once PA drops, are the changes substantial enough to warrant starting a new thread?

I believe so.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.

Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?

RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.

The only unit from the GK codex I would say wouldn't benefit from it is Servitors. They're almost always exempted from whatever special rule may be applied to any army they're in.

Yup, now that the previews are up, it seems the only units to not get it are indeed servitors. So parking a Land Raider on a terrain piece now gives it a 1+ save and -1 to hit, even if it isn't even obscured by the terrain.

Indeed very nice and more than I had expected from GW. All of the new rules seem very nice. The only things I'm really missing is new Warlord Traits, because our current ones mostly suck. And the Hero of the Chapter stratagem would have been nice to give First to the Fray to a GMNDK without making him Warlord.

Land Raiders and without space marines stormravens would probably have a niche. The horrible, ridiculous thing I’ve been looking at is a troll list with a thunderhawk. Cast sanctuary on it every turn and you have a 30W T9 2+/4++ tank at -2 to hit as long as you have big enough terrain pieces for it’s base. It doesn’t have the Flyer keyword so no boots on the ground concerns, just wouldn’t be legal in ITC if they still have their <PL30 restriction.>


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MiguelFelstone wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Once PA drops, are the changes substantial enough to warrant starting a new thread?

I believe so.

I’m cool with starting the new one on Friday unless someone else wants to.

Something that also could be useful is a chaplain with the fury of Deimos and the litany of projection on himself to trigger Bring down the beast at 36" + 5" movement.

A gun line of 3 ven dreads can statistically take a land raider or a repulsor which has been marked with Bring down the beast strat. I know that probably mass storm bolter fire will do better, but LC, ML, and autocannons are long-range which give some extra tactical options

Here's my first attempt at a list with the new PA. I'm especially excited about the Paladin block. -1 to hit, only wounds on 4+, -1 to wound, 1+4++, -1D. That means that S8+ is wounding those guys on 5s (1-3 are out because of Transhuman, and then Armoured Resilience--from Dominus tree--turns the 4s into 3s, which don't wound thanks to the strat).

Transhuman physiology and to wound maluses dont function like that. You're only improving your resilience against S3 and S4 weapons.

TP explicitly calls out *unmodified* rolls. 4s, 5s, and 6s for all other strength values resolve as results that will still successfully wound, even with the roll malus.

An example to illustrate:

A heavy bolter fires at a Paladin team with TP and AR active. All three shots hit. The wound rolls are 3, 4 and 5.

The 3 fails because it is not at least a natural 4.

The 4 succeeds because it is at least a natural 4, and the modified result of 3 is the minimum result needed for an S5 weapon to wound a T4 model.

The 5 succeeds because it is at least a natural 4, and the modified result of 4 is above the minimum result needed for an S5 weapon to wound a T4 model.