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Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Nice GMDK Elmir!
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.


THIS, this is exactly how my army will be compromised after my konor campaign is over. (We can only use new datasheets, not other rules from new release codexs.)

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Don't know if anyone noticed but Grey Knight Librarians now have Rites of Banishment. Which they didn't have in the Index.
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest






Varying cities in the North

Hi, I'm looking at maybe starting a GK army mainly for a painting/modelling challenge, but I also want it to be vaguely fun to play on the tabletop (as in, not auto-lose T1 or 2).

I've got some great conversion ideas for Dreadknights, so ideally I would build a 1500 list around about 4 of them, including the Grand Master HQ one. I think a Librarian seems like a good addition, but what else? Any ideas are much appreciated.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.

Interesting. So when the Codex says "if you include only grey-knights in your ARMY" they really just mean detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure if any points changed for anything but going by what I know - this list is 2k points. Pure greyknight alpha strike.

Battalion

Dragio
GMDK (Warlord) Psycannon/Psilencer/Sword/teleporter

10x Strike Squad / Hammer Justicar
10x Strike Squad / Hammer Justicar
5x Strike Squad

Stormraven TLLC/TLMM/ Huricane bolters

Outrider

GMDK Psycannon/Psilencer/Sword/teleporter

5x Interceptors
5x Interceptors
5x Interceptors

Not sure If Draigo is needed here or if more bodies and a cheap HQ would be better. Something like this will be my first attempt at the new codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/08 15:38:33


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.

Interesting. So when the Codex says "if you include only grey-knights in your ARMY" they really just mean detachment?



You're just looking in the wrong spot. If you look in the preamble to those special rules it specifically says detachment just like the Space Marine Codex does.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Sydney, Australia

@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 w0nderland wrote:
@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.


Allies still exist in the sense that what Xeno is saying is accurate. To get special chapter tactics or special GK rules an entire DETACHMENT needs to be drawn from the same chapter.

You can do a detachment from raven and one from imperial fists and still get both bonus'.

If the wording is different from book to book I'm sure that's a mistake. They've made it clear it's on a detachment basis.

Honestly GK really need this as their options for backfield objective holders are pretty limited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


If you are judging codexes purely by how effective they are against the absolute best armies then be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Only a couple books at any one time fit into this tier.

I LOVE the new codex. Reroll charge warlord trait is insanely good and so is the banner relic combined with a brother captain. Our psychic powers are tier one and so is +1 to tests.

The stratagems are strong especially with the nemesis grand master. I think the 2 cp +1 invul is absolute garbage.

I don't see us wanting any heavy weapons on anyone but characters. 4+ bs just sucks.

I'm imagining my alpha strike squads in two deepstriking components.

Vs. Monsters/Elite targets
Grand Master /w Hammer and Psycannon
Brother Captain /w Hammer and Psycannon
Chapter Ancient /w relic banner and Falchion
10 Halberd Strike Squad /w Stormbolters

Vs. MEQ or Blobs
Grand Master Nemesis Knight
Heavy Psilencer
Heavy Psycannon
10 Halberd Strike Squad /w Stormbolters

Any ideas for efficient backfield options?

Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 07:28:39


hey what time is it?

"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."

-Ghaz 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 Aijec wrote:
Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.




I really really like the idea of a GOI-ing Landraider Crusader (I asked the same question a couple of pages ago), it must be cool to get in position quick. And you can load it with 15 PAGK and a GM for added Dakka (if you are fancy you could even do 3 Purgation Squads with 12 Psilencers).
But it eats up so many points.
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




What do people Think about the new fliers we get? Personally I'm super excited and very tempted to run 2 stormtalons maybe even 3..
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Thenord wrote:
What do people Think about the new fliers we get? Personally I'm super excited and very tempted to run 2 stormtalons maybe even 3..

As long as they're still relatively cheap I'm gonna run them.

I'm personally more excited about running a commander with the stupidly cool storm Bolter we have access to. I might even run a allied detachment of Paladins and a Grand Master for it just because.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Youn wrote:
Don't know if anyone noticed but Grey Knight Librarians now have Rites of Banishment. Which they didn't have in the Index.


Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Gest wrote:
 Aijec wrote:
Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.




I really really like the idea of a GOI-ing Landraider Crusader (I asked the same question a couple of pages ago), it must be cool to get in position quick. And you can load it with 15 PAGK and a GM for added Dakka (if you are fancy you could even do 3 Purgation Squads with 12 Psilencers).
But it eats up so many points.
Purifiers would make the most sense.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.

hey what time is it?

"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."

-Ghaz 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.


Make me GW.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.

I'm with you - this is a lot better than I was expecting - still a lot of issues - but at least we can properly alpha strike now with our warlord trait. At least we can put a somewhat survivable unit out there now with sanctuary and command points. At least we have some offensive power spells that aren't 1damage smite.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.


Second this!
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Aijec wrote:

It's looking great... stop being a wuss.

Hey, GW PR Division, while you're here, could you get a message back to the guys who write the rules and let them know that Terminators are still by all appearances a little expensive? I mean, I know it's a bit early to jump the gun on worrying about that but that's like half my ar... er... half the new models I was thinking about buying but now probably am going to spend on *warmachine now! Yeah, that's it.

* Not gonna spend a dime on that game.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Aijec wrote:
 w0nderland wrote:
@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


If you are judging codexes purely by how effective they are against the absolute best armies then be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Only a couple books at any one time fit into this tier.

I LOVE the new codex. Reroll charge warlord trait is insanely good and so is the banner relic combined with a brother captain. Our psychic powers are tier one and so is +1 to tests.

The stratagems are strong especially with the nemesis grand master. I think the 2 cp +1 invul is absolute garbage.

I don't see us wanting any heavy weapons on anyone but characters. 4+ bs just sucks.



I'm sorry, but this is a cop-out. This is supposed to be the most play tested and balanced edition with GW attending tournaments to promote the scene and hype. You can't just wave your hands and say "all armies aren't equal"; all armies must be equal or close to it. Otherwise you're gonna lose sales, customers and hype.

And please note I am saying armies must be equal, not builds. Some armies will have more optimal builds than others, but we have NO optimal builds looking at this. The only armies we can hang with are Index armies and we may not be able to do that with many of them once they get Codexes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 18:02:10


 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Look, it really isn't a cop-out at this point. The GKs as an army (the mechanics, the relics, the strategems... They seem to work. without anything in there being utterly broken or abusable through stacking that shouldn't happen (that's what killed 8th).

The point costs are just not good atm. And guess what they can change in less than a year. Same for IG... but the situation is flipped now. So I'm not going to burn my collection just yet.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Elmir wrote:
Look, it really isn't a cop-out at this point. The GKs as an army (the mechanics, the relics, the strategems... They seem to work. without anything in there being utterly broken or abusable through stacking that shouldn't happen (that's what killed 8th).

The point costs are just not good atm. And guess what they can change in less than a year. Same for IG... but the situation is flipped now. So I'm not going to burn my collection just yet.


Unless they're big drops I think we need a bit more than that. Namely:

1. HQ's shouldn't have babysmite. Let them have regular.

2. Incinerators should be Assault.

3. Psilencers should Rapid Fire 3 (6 for Dreads).

4. GM-DK's should be able to take more than 1 Relic.

5. Psycannons should at least be AP-2.

Doing this while dropping the base cost of Terminators 4PPM or so would alleviate tons of problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 18:18:19


 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Lets go down this list:

Audustum wrote:

1. HQ's shouldn't have babysmite. Let them have regular.
2. Incinerators should be Assault.
3. Psilencers should Rapid Fire 3 (6 for Dreads).
4. GM-DK's should be able to take more than 1 Relic.
5. Psycannons should at least be AP-2.

1. I could see a case made for that. I mean, given the psyker start that we were talking about in the IG tactics thread weeks ago, it's not like they've been consistently worried about people doing this. Just GK doing it.
2. It's a minor concession, but I think that would make Incinerators go from "unlikely situational" to being "situational". I don't honestly like flamers (other than hellhounds) this edition anyway though.
3. That's an interesting change. It would actually be an overall loss of efficiency though, at least, for anything >12" range. It'd be better for <12".
4. I don't honestly have a good grasp on how the relics work. Are they a special case where they cannot but others can?
5. Much as I would like to see that, I can't say that'd be balanced. Better would be if they kept AP -1 but were D2 instead.

Honestly, I think that most of the profiles are pretty much fine as is. My biggest problem is that everything is just too damn expensive for what it gets you. Terminator weapons should not cost more, because Terminators aren't relentless. And, given how AP works now, Terminators should have become CHEAPER across the board, not more expensive. Hell, take the extra wound away if you want; anything that anyone is going to use to kill a terminator already has a D2 profile.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Your points are fair. One of the reasons I wanted to change the profiles off of Heavy is because of what you said: they aren't relentless so that -1 to shoot really hurts. Taking it off the Psilencers (in return for weakening long range effectiveness) seemed like a good trade.

Cost is a major problem too though I think Terminator Psilencers are O.K. at just 8 more than a Storm Bolter.

Every Relic we have except Liber (-1 leadership to Daemons) has a restriction on it that invalidates the GM-DK. Cuirass of Sacrifice is Infantry only, Soul Glaive is for replacing Halberds only, e.t.c.
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Regarding those points:

1. Perhaps somethiing to consider, it wouldn't break the game.
2. sure. I'd never take them even if they were... The 8" range makes the weapons not good, even if they are asssault.
3. Disagree. Range implications. The -1 to hit is just something you have to live with.
4. I don't think it's nice that he only gets 1, but despite that, I think the entry itself doesn't need it. All the GMDK weapon load-outs bring something interesting.
5. Disagree. If you had said heavy 6 to bring them in line with assault cannons, I would have agreed though.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
Your points are fair. One of the reasons I wanted to change the profiles off of Heavy is because of what you said: they aren't relentless so that -1 to shoot really hurts. Taking it off the Psilencers (in return for weakening long range effectiveness) seemed like a good trade.

Cost is a major problem too though I think Terminator Psilencers are O.K. at just 8 more than a Storm Bolter.

Every Relic we have except Liber (-1 leadership to Daemons) has a restriction on it that invalidates the GM-DK. Cuirass of Sacrifice is Infantry only, Soul Glaive is for replacing Halberds only, e.t.c.

How many relics should really be available to something like a Dreadknight that would make sense?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




The model is literally a Terminator in a baby-carrier. No reason the Terminator can't be wearing the Cuirass of Sacrifice (FnP relic) as an example. There's also a Daemon hammer relic. No real reason we can't say it has a variable size and can replace a great hammer or a regular hammer
   
Made in gb
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation




So I'm trying to think of some interesting combinations with the new codex that could be fun to play (I don't really play competitively).

A land raider containing 2 squads of purifiers could be fun when paired with gate. I was thinking I could pair it with a stormraven that has a dreadnought and/or more purifiers in it that can fly over first turn.

The land raider could be gated by almost anything on the back line where you could also have a tri-las pred (assuming we still get this in the codex). The psyker could then cast the power on the pred that allows it to fire without requiring line of sight.

Thinking about it you could put a GM or Draigo at the backline with multiple tri-las preds. He could grant one the line of sight power and will give all the preds the reroll aura (I think). Its not as good as Big G but... what do you guys think? Just throwing out some thoughts.
   
Made in us
Xenohunter with First Contact




The biggest issue for me right now is the scarcity of command points. Even at 2k its hard to manage more than 1 command point per turn.

It feels like every game is going to hinge on a single battle round, which I guess is cool?




   
 
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