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I think ASM are more efficient as a cheap means to tie up enemy shooting units, myself. Just pop a single power sword on the sarge and dive in to enemy units, trying to consolidate in to other units or in to cover if there aren't any, if you happen to win.

They are a different slot than vets as well, if you are trying to get command points.

 brokbrok wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
ASM are cheap, mobile melta that doesn't have to pay for a tank.

That's the thing though, you get more for less with Company veterans w/ JP. The infernus pistol is useless when they DS so you really only get 2 melta before they probably die. One will miss, the other might wound. For a few points more you could bring in five whole melta guns and all but guarantee that one thing you need to die will die, or you could bring 2 meltas and a combi, with one ablative wound, for less points than the ASM melta squad.

Ministry had an alright point though, they are more efficient in a roving plasma squad.

Even as a roving plasma squad, i think the vets are in a better position? 147 points nets you 4 plasma guns and a combi plas. Thats essentially a point click delete unit.

Yeah, when our book comes out, i think we really need a couple issues fixed imo.

First off, there absolutely needs to be a reason for us to take regular assault squads. They have been a staple of BA for many many years and the fact that they are totally overshadowed by both DC and VV with little reason to even bring them is a little disconcerting. Whether that be a points decrease to make them worth it or rules/wargear, but I have many painted JP assault squads and don't want to see them go by the wayside.

Secondly, I for us JP assault players, I think we really need decent of angels back in some form or another to help us get into CC from DS more reliably. Our assault brothers on foot now have transports they can assault out of while staying relatively protected form enemy fire, while the JP variety gets eaten up by enemy fire, overwatch and failed DS charges. If DoA added a couple inches to charge range off DS, or allowed BA to DS in a bit closer than other armies I think that would go a long way to shoring up what's been a pretty big issue for BA JP armies for a while now.

Then of course it would be nice to see the red thirst come back also in some form, but truthfully, if they fixed the first 2 issues, i wouldn't be too salty if we didn't get it back.

I haven't used jump ASM since 3rd, though. 5th ed they were an excuse for cheap razors. 6th and 7th were the dark ages for jump packs.

The points investment for ASM can't be justified. If you just want cheap units intended to lock ranged enemies in melee you can get yourself some rhinos. They provide you with cover, slightly more firepower and a whole lot more durability than ASM for the same cost will have. If you also want units that can kill opponents in melee you get VV or DC, you'll even have rhinos to put them in. There's an argument to be made for ASM as plasma guns with ablative wounds, but as scion command squads have shown it seems to be less important to bring ablative wounds than it is to bring more plasma guns/pts cost.

Is there any Rule against 5 Sanguinary Priests as a Unit (sort of) ? I would give them JP, Combi Plasmagun and a Poweraxe. Thats 106 points per Model, but they would be almost impossible to kill. Each Priest has 4 Wounds, they can heal each other (D3 wounds), and if one is killed, the others can try to revive him. They could fallback from CC, and still shoot. They have 20 Shots firing Overwatch. In CC they have 15 Attacks with S6 AP-2 W1, hitting on 2s.

Depends on what detachment. That's five HQ choices right there. I forgot if any of the detachment had max HQ choices?

They wouldn't actually be a single unit though, they'd be five characters.

I know they would be 5 individual Characters, thats why i said Unit (sort of). There is a Detachment which has 3-5 HQ only, so it would be possible. Brigade also has 3-5 HQ, but requires a lot more Units.

Well as long as you meet the rest of your detachment rules, it's a completely legal list.

The reviving ability only works on still existing units, so you could not revive a priest once he has died as his "unit" is gone from the field. Which makes the tactic less valuable, but I bet it would be cool to run.

Yeah, once a priest got deleted, you couldn't do anything for them.

Here's a question. Do I take a priest to keep Mephiston, Lemartes, and six death company with +1 str and the occasional heal, or do I drop him for a captain running around the back line with a power sword to re-roll two autocannon preds and two asscan razorbacks?

Here is my advice from playing and against and with BA in 8th ed.

-Lemartes is a must if you have any DC. He greatly increases your chance of charging and greatly increases the damage from DC units in melee.

-A librarian Dreadnaught it just stupid good.. You can make him your general since he is a character and put him in the Stormraven. You can then give him the +1 attack for warlord traits. He can't be targeted unless he is the closest target which is amazing since he has less than 10 wounds. When he charges into combat he is just godlike. His force halberd is Str 10 and -4 AP allowing him to open up tanks like they were not there. In addition, he can use his psychic powers to buff near by DC units giving them an extra +1 attack and a 4+ invul save.

-Make sure you use synergy on units to buff them up. An example is the Sanguinor buff, Lemartes buff, priest buff, and Librarian psychic ability can make one death company unit get 50, Str 5 attacks, with -3 AP (with powerswords) that reroll failed to hits. Needless to say nothing really survives that charge.

-Make sure you equip all your death company with boltguns instead of bolt pistols. After seeing the diffrence boltguns help give your DC units much needed range and the ability to really punish screening units before charging tougher units. It also allows you to shoot squishy units hiding in the back.

-Think very hard where you want to establish a lodgment with your DC using jump packs. It is important to use your Stormraven and troops inside to create an area big enough for your follow-on units can jump into. If done correctly your entire army can suddenly be in the middle of your opponents and you will create panic in his army's center. Your DC simply destroy everything they touch if they are buffed from those auras. It is very scary to face and is almost impossible to deal with if you do this correctly.

-Equip you DC with powerswords and leave a few with chainswords to remove as casualties. Powerswords are just dirt cheap for what they offer. You could also consider having a small 5-man DC unit with 2 chain swords. Buffed correctly these guys get 7, Str 5 attacks, with rerolls to failed hits. These will tear through a horde unit and only costs 100pts for 5.

-Snipers are a solid option as others stated. I think you will find the camo cloaks worth it to prevent an easy kill point or first blood.

-If you are going to use tactical squads cheap them very cheap as objective grabbers. Don't pay for that heavy flamer since it will likely never earn back its points for you. You could invest them in other places with much larger returns on kills.

-Make sure you use terrain wisely. If you can jump within 9" on the opposite side of a building or terrain blocking LOS you can prevent any overwatch. This is very strong especially if you are being forced to charge tons of flamers or heavy flamers.

-TL Lascannon razorbacks are one of the bust buys in the game and helps clear out anti tank weapons that threaten your Stormraven.

-Hurricane bolters on the Stormraven rock! 24 Str 4 shots is pretty good especially after you have your DC/tactical squads shooting the same or other units. You can suddenly find yourself pumping out 80-100 bolter and hurricane bolter shots each turn and will cripple non tank units.

-The Sanguinor' +1 attack aura is very powerful

-Priests are amazing! They are so cheap, can heal your named characters, bring back dead Death Company models, can be given a powerswords to increase their damage, and most importantly give that +1 strength to nearby units. The reason that +1 strength is so important is suddenly against MEQ units you wound on a 3+ and against T8 tanks you wound on a 5+. Even thunderhammers suddenly wound tanks on a 3+ which greatly increases your damage output. It isn't even a question if this unit should be taken, instead the better question is how many should you take.

In summary if you use a librarian (i like the dreadnaught version), the Sanguinor, Lemartes, and a Sanctuary Priest to buff nearby units, it makes your army insanely killy. Not to mention all those characters are great in combat themselves. I feel this is how BA were meant to be played in 8th ed.

It's a shame it's not really a BA unit, the Stormtalon looks great in Mephiston Red....

XTheWaffen wrote:
The reviving ability only works on still existing units, so you could not revive a priest once he has died as his "unit" is gone from the field. Which makes the tactic less valuable, but I bet it would be cool to run.

True, i didnt think of that.

senor_flojo wrote:
It's a shame it's not really a BA unit, the Stormtalon looks great in Mephiston Red....

True but you can now run them in the same Detachment as they still have the "Imperium" and "Adeptus Astartes" keywords. You won't benefit from any Chapter-specific bubble abilities but since they are aircraft, they are going to be zooming out of bubble auras mostly anyway.

I'm currently plotting out a theoretical list based on my experience and feedback from this tactical thread. No points or anything, just looking at things and figuring out what's effective with what I have on-hand here.

Vanguard Detachment + Patrol Detachment (Done in order to field all models & HQ choices)

Vanguard Detachment:

-Librarian Dreadought
-Lemartes

-Death Company (5 models,)
-Company Veterans Squad (Jump Packs, Storm Shields, and a couple of melta guns + Powerfist Sergeant)
-Company Champion
-Sanguinary Novitiate

Storm Raven Gunship (Death Co. + Librarian Dread & Lemartes all Ride here)

Patrol Detachment

-Captain w/ Jump Pack
-Jump Pack Librarian

-Scout Squad (Camo Cloaks and CCW/BP)
-Tactical Squad (HF/Combiflamer + Lightning Claw)
-Rhino Dedicated Transport (Eventually a Razorback)

-Furioso w/ Frag Cannon or Death Company Dread (Not sure yet, leaning toward the fragioso)

-Assault Squad (5 man, 2x Melta + Inferno Pistol)

-Storm Raven (Dreadnought, Assault Squad + one Character ride here)

Only gives me 4 Command Points. Building to make the second detachment a Brigade instead to net me 7 Command Points instead and give me a 5th HQ slot for a Sanguinary High Priest as my final HQ choice.

Expanding outward, I will make the tactical squad larger, along with the death company (a second 5 man squad to land with the Storm Raven perhaps) and paint up some new Primaris troops marines once I get my hands on some as a backfield line holder.

Seems a balanced and fun list to try. I'm digging new Blood Angels, especially compared to the previous edition.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Lookin' good. Does have a bit of a limited model count is my only worry.

 Melissia wrote:
Lookin' good. Does have a bit of a limited model count is my only worry.

Yea, I've only been rebuilding this army for about a year, and painting very slowly since I'm pushing myself to paint it to as close to display quality that I can.

I'm pleased with the progress, but I have a LOT more to do still. Getting the first of two storm ravens painted up and then more infantry and a dreadnought. Lots left to do.

Take it easy for now and thanks for the feedback also.

-Red__Thirst-

So I discovered something silly.

A BA dread that takes a magna-grapple can pull itself attack-on-Titan-style towards any target as long as an enemy vehicle is within 12". Downside is that the vehicle crew gets angry and also overwatches, but oh well.

Mechanics: declare multi-assault against vehicle far away and actual intended charge target medium distance away. Both overwatch, then the charge range gets +2" regardless of if you decide to go to the vehicle or not.

MMMMM. Magna grapple DC dread....

Man, the DC Dread is so damn brutal. It's the only vehicle other than a stormraven that I'm seriously considering for my 1st and 10th list.

So I've come up with some points for the stuff I have assembled:

Blood Angels full list

Total 2270 points, 137 power

Hq - 36 power, 656 points

⁃ Lamartes - 129 points, 7 power

⁃ Captain in terminator armor - 122, 8 power, storm bolter 2, thunder hammer 20, total 144 points

⁃ Chaplain with jump pack - 90, 6 power, crozius 0, inferno pistol 20, total 110 points

⁃ Librarian with jump pack - 116, 7 power, force stave 14, total 130 points

⁃ Astorath - 143 points, 8 power

Troops - 10 power, 172 points

⁃ Tactical, 5 man - 65, 5 power, flamer 9, hand flamer 8, chain sword 0, total 82 points

⁃ Tactical, 5 man - 65, 5 power, heavy flamer 17, hand flamer 8, chain sword 0, total 90 points

Elites - 59 power, 837 points

⁃ death company with jump packs, 15 man - 300, 30 power, bolt pistol, chain sword, total 300 points

⁃ death company with jump packs, 5 man, - 100, 10 power, power fist 20, plasma pistol 7, plasma pistol 7, inferno pistol 20, power sword 4, power sword 4, thunder hammer 20, thunder hammer 20, total 202 points

⁃ Death company dreadnought - 128, 11 power, heavy flamer 17, melta gun 17, furioso fist x2 50, total 212 points

⁃ Vanguard Veteran with jump packs, 5 man - 90, 8 power, 4 storm shields 5x4=20, 4 chain swords, lightning claw pair 13, total 123 points

Heavy - 8 power, 163 points

⁃ Baal Predator- 107, 8 power, twin assault cannon 35, heavy bolter x2 20, total 162 points

Flier - 24 power, 456 points

⁃ Stormtalon - 110, 9 power, twin assault cannon 35, two lascannons 50, total 195 points

⁃ Stormraven - 172, 15 power, twin assault cannon 35, hurricane bolter 4, typhoon missile 50, total 261 points

I can take all elites and fliers plus Lamartes and first tactical squad for 1504 points

I can take all troops, elites, heavy, and fliers plus Lamartes, Astorath, and librarian = 2016 points

Any thoughts?

 Melissia wrote:
Man, the DC Dread is so damn brutal. It's the only vehicle other than a stormraven that I'm seriously considering for my 1st and 10th list.

True but you do need a Storm Raven to deploy it. I guess you could try using it on foot as a distraction Carnifex but I think it is too pricey for that. DC Dread on a Raven or Libby Dread if advancing on foot.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Man, the DC Dread is so damn brutal. It's the only vehicle other than a stormraven that I'm seriously considering for my 1st and 10th list.

True but you do need a Storm Raven to deploy it. I guess you could try using it on foot as a distraction Carnifex but I think it is too pricey for that. DC Dread on a Raven or Libby Dread if advancing on foot.

I plan on having a DC dread and a Librarian Dread both being deployed via Storm Raven once I can get them both painted. But yea, priority will be getting the DC dread to combat asap.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So here's some insanity I cooked up for 2500 pts:

1st Battalion
HQ:
-- Power Armor Captain: JP, MCBG, PAxe
-- Terminator Librarian: FSword, SB
Troops:
-- Scout Squad: 4 BG, BP+CCW
-- Scout Squad: 4 SR, ML, Cloaks
-- Scout Squad: 5 SR
-- Scout Squad: 5 SR
Elites:
-- Terminator Assault Squad: 2xTwinLC, 3xTHSS
-- Terminator Assault Squad: 2xTwinLC, 3xTHSS
-- Terminator Assault Squad: 2xTwinLC, 3xTHSS

2nd Battalion
HQ
-- Terminator Captain: TH, SB
-- Terminator Librarian: FAxe, SB
Troops
-- Scout Squad: 4 BG, BP+CCW
-- Scout Squad: 4 SR, ML, Cloaks
-- Scout Squad: 5 SR

Elites
-- Terminator Ancient: Lightning Claw
-- Terminator Squad: AssCan, 4 PFist, 4SB, PSword
-- Terminator Squad: AssCan, 4 PFist, 4SB, PSword

The additional scout squads give a lot more staying power to the scout force this list would have already had. Second termie librarian can focus on using a different power than the 1st for matched play-- one using shield, other one using rage perhaps, or one rage and one bloodboil. Blood Boil's text makes me wonder if it can be used to snipe characters once you get close enough; it'd be pretty powerful against T3 characters. The PA captain would be there to support the snipers and MLs, put in fluffed as the leader of the scout deployment (because 35 scouts is a pretty major deployment after all). I think I could get three squads in that reroll-1s bubble, and with the jump pack and poweraxe he could maybe be good for counter-assaults on anything attempting to sneak past the wave of terminator units to get my scouts. not really 100% sold on the jump pack mind you, just kinda was finding places to spend those points at that point.

My only worry would be your anti-tank. You've got two Missile Launchers and two Assault Cannons, which while not terrible, are not a lot. I would consider perhaps a vehicle (Predator perhaps?) with all lascannons, or if you want to spend the points, a Storm Raven or even a good old fashioned Godhammer Pattern Land Raider? 4x Lascannon shots is nothing to sneeze at.

I love the concept for sure. It looks like a fun list.

Best of luck & take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Oddly enough, the primary anti-tank would probably be thunder hammers. Which I guess isn't ideal. I'll think on it.

 Melissia wrote:
Oddly enough, the primary anti-tank would probably be thunder hammers. Which I guess isn't ideal. I'll think on it.

Yea, doing D6 wounds, preferably at -2 or -3 AP is the sweet spot for vehicle hunting.

This is why I intend on bringing the Storm Raven(s) in my list. 2x wing mounted Missile Launchers each do D6 wounds at -2 AP, the nose mounted twin multimelta doing D6 wounds at -4 AP (rolling 2 dice & taking the highest ideally if inside 12") per shot, and a twin lascannon turret (if you prefer it over the Twin Assault Cannon) doing another D6 wounds at -3 AP. It's got 14 wounds and is pretty tough to take down, especially being harder to hit if not in hover mode.

Another option to consider that is much cheaper, but much more fragile, would be a couple of Land Speeders deep striking in with a pair of multimeltas, one mounted underneath and one mounted to the gunner's seat. Pretty brutal dropping 4x Multimeltas on a target inside of 12". Secondly you could run a Multimelta and a Cyclone Missile Launcher on the speeders for more potential hits and wounds at the cost of AP (-2 on the missiles vs.-4 on the multimeltas).

Just thinking out loud there. Hope that help stir up a few ideas.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-