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Primaris Death Company won't ever happen because there are no genetic flaws in these new super-humans and 8th edition is just like 7th edition, you simply cannot just think to make a full CaC army because you ll be utterly smashed.

 brokbrok wrote:
So this is in response to some of the lists I've seen posted. Take what you want to take, the point is to have fun, but this is some pseudo math hammering that I do when I'm looking at different list options so I can try and make sure I'm bringing enough tools to not get pantsed. It's not real mathhammer, I'm just charting the strength and number or shots I get from my ranged weapons. I don't count pistols or melee attacks because they're not "reliably" going to go off every turn. I'm posting this because it's really easy to get caught up in chain sword spam so I'm hoping it helps some burgeoning list builders out there start reppin' for The Emperors finest.

The first thing is to consider your opponents. Let's pretend they're MEQ because odds

Based on the internet, everyone is in love with assbacks and vehicles again. Basically every vehicle is T7, so I want to know I can handle T7 with my shooting.

If something, flamers, has a random number of hits just count it as four per d6. You want an idea, not accuracy.

If something gets a re-roll to hit, either total or just on 1, add an asterix. You should be pessimistic when determining final damage, so mentally you should halve all your shots to determine hits. This asterix tells you that those four lascannon shots could actually be three or four hits instead of two.

Anything lower than T7 I'm going to assume I'll be punching in the face, because BA.

Try to justify your choice of being BA. If your list would perform better as a different Chapter, then go be that different chapter. Don't be strawberry vanilla. Granted, this is currently difficult, but try.

Now I make a chart on paper because it's easier to process when written instead of typed. In the header column I have the names of the lists, then in the subsequent columns I have S4 through S9, these are what count unless you're going outside of the codex. Still don't take vindicators, they're not worth the points yet.

_____S4_____S5_____S6_____S7_____S8_____S9
v1- __76_____6_____36_____12_____11_____0

v2-__50_____10_____12_____18*____7_____4*

v3-__64_____18_____16_____12*____6_____6*

The first list was very dakka and flavorful. It has Meph, Lemartes, a Sanguinary Priest, DC, DC Dread, and a descent accompaniment of armor. I love this list and I'm definitely gonna fun run it. It lacks on the re-roll security however, and a lot of its anti vehicle could get locked in combat cause they're jump pack meltas that I plan on using turn 2 when the dread is flown in. So overall the list lacks alpha capability as well as the reach out and touch someone feel of lascannons. It makes up for it in combat, but that's unreliable. This list probably won't kill a tank turn one.

V2 I think I hit a good blend of BA guilt and generic units with this one. I dropped the assbacks for lasbacks so a captain could babysit my long range communications and added a hellblaster squad so I could play with the new toys and have a high powered death bubble around the captain. Still got a lot of death company so I don't feel guilty about dropping Meph. Also stripped the tacticals down to just objective sitters. This list has the lowest low power shots, which is theoretically what BA combat is for, but the highest number of high powered re-rolls to take on the vehicle meta. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.

V3 Is me trying to add more primaris marines to the core. I swapped a couple of the bare tacticals for intercessors, added a priest to increase the DC punch, dropped the auto preds for a baal pred. I advice against baal preds but wanted to add back in unique BA units and figured a bully flamer tank backing up the DC could be cute. Then added another lasback to the captains retinue. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.


For competitive I'm probably going to go with V2 because I was able to maximize its high strength reliable shooting while still keeping half the army assault based. As BA I think we need to thread the needle of assault and shooty. If we're gun lines we're wasting our potential, but if we're assault based we risk bad match ups. The lists aren't posted because the post is about counting out what you're really bringing to the table and iterating on your initial idea instead of fantasizing about angry marines punching things and ending up disappointed in their performance.

Anyway, sorry for rambling and I hope this helps some newer players.

As someone who's brand new to list building, this is super interesting to read. I would love to see some more theory/strategy articles about list building, got any suggestions?

Try Battlescribe, it makes building lists super easy. All you need is click what you want and the program does all the calculations for you, and you can print your list later. And the best thing is, its free. Awesome tool.

 Frozocrone wrote:

What I'd give for Primaris Death Company...

Given that the Gene Seed is meant to be more stable though, can't see it happening.

Cawl thinks they are more stable.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

What I'd give for Primaris Death Company...

Given that the Gene Seed is meant to be more stable though, can't see it happening.

Cawl thinks they are more stable.

Heh, true enough.

Anyway, was having a looksie at the Grey Knights codex and interestingly, they are now being given access to the Stormtalon and Stormhawk Interceptor.

What are the chances we could be seeing those two in a red paint scheme anytime soon?

Oh please let us have Stormtalons. I have a pair already and I will run them as "Red Angels" if I have to but I would so love to be able to field a proper BA Air Wing detachment.

But since this is Games Workshop, you can calculate the chances of it happening by rolling a D6, dividing by the day of the week and multiplying by the colour purple.

 Karhedron wrote:
Oh please let us have Stormtalons. I have a pair already and I will run them as "Red Angels" if I have to but I would so love to be able to field a proper BA Air Wing detachment.

But since this is Games Workshop, you can calculate the chances of it happening by rolling a D6, dividing by the day of the week and multiplying by the colour purple.

Oh you're too doom and gloom.

They'll multiply it by blue.

I'd love to get my hands on a Stormhawk interceptor with Blood Angels chapter tactics. I love the Stormhawk model (the Storm Talon, not so much) and would love to have one on the board down the road.

We'll see what happens, fingers crossed we'll get it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'd love to get my hands on a Stormhawk interceptor with Blood Angels chapter tactics. I love the Stormhawk model (the Storm Talon, not so much) and would love to have one on the board down the road.

We'll see what happens, fingers crossed we'll get it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Stormhawk is better for air-to-air combat, Stormtalon for air-to-ground

Stormtalon is low tier atm anyway, even vs ground stormhawk is more cost/efficient.

senor_flojo wrote:

Stormhawk is better for air-to-air combat, Stormtalon for air-to-ground

Yea... I know. It's fairly obvious what their roles are. I have two Storm Ravens for air to ground if need-be. I want a dedicated anti-air that can also work ground targets over if need be.

PandatheWarrior wrote:Stormtalon is low tier atm anyway, even vs ground stormhawk is more cost/efficient.

Exactly this. Nothing against the Storm Talon, I think it's suited for it's role, I have just never been a fan of the model; especially when compared to the newer Stormhawk model.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I actually kinda like the stormtalon model. It reminds me of command and conquer's orcas a little bit.

Well, after my first two games with Blood Angels at 1,500:

-The first against Tau (lots of firewarriors with some pathfinders, cadre fireblade?, battlesuit commander, riptide and the suit with missiles on missiles).

I ran:


We played Kill Points, and although I made some bad plays (this being my first game of 8th), this game felt very winnable. I went first and the missile Devastators deleted 12 Fire Warriors with Frag Missiles and a little help from the Plasma Squad(it felt great). The Devastators were the all-stars this game. Killed his Battlesuit Commander, kept hammering his other Fire Warrior squads in cover and nearly killed his missile suit.

I ended up losing due to Kill Points, but learned:
-The vets were useless. Easy Kill Points
-Company Ancient didn't make a difference
-Don't shoot at what you plan to charge with Assault Marines, they will most likely pull their casualties from the front. Assault Marines swiftly died after shooting three Pathfinders
-Sanguinary Novitiate was useless as well.

I tweaked my list for the game I had the following week.


I played against Craftworld Eldar with Harlequins (Farseer, Troupe Master, 2 10 man Guardian squads, 5 man Harlequin squad, Solitaire, 3 Wave Serpents, Harlequin transport, Falcon and Fire Prism). I didn't stans a chance at all. We rolled for mission and got Kill Points, and I just spent the game getting hammered and charged by Wave Serpents that fell back in his turn and shot while the other vehicles that didn't charge last turn did it all over again.

I could barely do anything to his vehicles, the Harlequins didn't really do much though. They charged, killed a few Marines and died quickly. I am beginning to think against Eldar I need some small Melta squads that are bubble wrapped so that one squad can fall back while that squad hits them with Melta. Assault Marines are also super pillow fisted and easily tied up by lightning fast Wave Serpents. Chaplain was great though, killed the Farseer after nearly finishing off a Wave Serpent.

Well, two vets cant do much if you dont equip them right. Get 4-6, give them combiplasma, stormshield, JP. Add a captain with the same loadout. Deepstrike, supercharge plasma, reroll 1s, and watch those serpents die.
Rhinos suck, to expensive. Go razorback(s), with whatever heavy weaponry you like. No need for devastators anymore. Razorbacks can move further, are tougher, have more wounds, and can carry 6 models.
Its much better to shoot your enemy from far away, melee is no longer a viable option. As you said, models from the front are removed, next turn your unit gets wiped out by gunfire.

p5freak wrote:
Well, two vets cant do much if you dont equip them right. Get 4-6, give them combiplasma, stormshield, JP. Add a captain with the same loadout. Deepstrike, supercharge plasma, reroll 1s, and watch those serpents die.
Rhinos suck, to expensive. Go razorback(s), with whatever heavy weaponry you like. No need for devastators anymore. Razorbacks can move further, are tougher, have more wounds, and can carry 6 models.
Its much better to shoot your enemy from far away, melee is no longer a viable option. As you said, models from the front are removed, next turn your unit gets wiped out by gunfire.

This is so sad to hear and yet true. My Orks have felt this and I'm hesitant to restart my BA army (except for 30k).

Shooting with a Melee army? Taken from the front to increase charge range.
Charging with a Melee army? 2CP to mitigate damage somewhere and auto fall back exposing one self.

I might have been OK with this...if the twin linked from last edition didn't basically double the amount of shots and get re-rolls from somewhere else (also Overwatch for shooting armies but no melee Overwatch for units that want to stay in combat?)

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Well, after my first two games with Blood Angels at 1,500:

-The first against Tau (lots of firewarriors with some pathfinders, cadre fireblade?, battlesuit commander, riptide and the suit with missiles on missiles).

I ran:

Spoiler:

HQ
-Captain w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter
-Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Crozius

ELITE
-Company Ancient w/ Bolt Pistol
-Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
-2x Company Veterans w/ Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
-Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Dread CCW, Storm Bolter

TROOPS
-5x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Combi-Plasma, Chainsword, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon

FAST
-10x Assault Marines w/ 3x Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw

HEAVY
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers

TRANSPORTS
-2x Rhinos w/ Storm Bolter

We played Kill Points, and although I made some bad plays (this being my first game of 8th), this game felt very winnable. I went first and the missile Devastators deleted 12 Fire Warriors with Frag Missiles and a little help from the Plasma Squad(it felt great). The Devastators were the all-stars this game. Killed his Battlesuit Commander, kept hammering his other Fire Warrior squads in cover and nearly killed his missile suit.

I ended up losing due to Kill Points, but learned:
-The vets were useless. Easy Kill Points
-Company Ancient didn't make a difference
-Don't shoot at what you plan to charge with Assault Marines, they will most likely pull their casualties from the front. Assault Marines swiftly died after shooting three Pathfinders
-Sanguinary Novitiate was useless as well.

I tweaked my list for the game I had the following week.

Spoiler:

HQ
-Captain w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter
-Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Crozius

ELITE
-Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

TROOPS
-8x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Combi-Plasma, Chainsword, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Combi-Plasma, Chainsword, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon

FAST
-10x Assault Marines w/ 3x Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw

HEAVY
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers

TRANSPORTS
-2x Rhinos w/ Storm Bolter

I played against Craftworld Eldar with Harlequins (Farseer, Troupe Master, 2 10 man Guardian squads, 5 man Harlequin squad, Solitaire, 3 Wave Serpents, Harlequin transport, Falcon and Fire Prism). I didn't stans a chance at all. We rolled for mission and got Kill Points, and I just spent the game getting hammered and charged by Wave Serpents that fell back in his turn and shot while the other vehicles that didn't charge last turn did it all over again.

I could barely do anything to his vehicles, the Harlequins didn't really do much though. They charged, killed a few Marines and died quickly. I am beginning to think against Eldar I need some small Melta squads that are bubble wrapped so that one squad can fall back while that squad hits them with Melta. Assault Marines are also super pillow fisted and easily tied up by lightning fast Wave Serpents. Chaplain was great though, killed the Farseer after nearly finishing off a Wave Serpent.

I don't think it's so much that vets are useless, chainsswords are useless, you really need vets with powerswords and a priest and the'll get stuff down. Chainsword take to long to kill stuff by weight of numbers, Especially when those units can just leave close combat on a whim.

Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.

 brokbrok wrote:
Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.

The main problem is that is really hard to lock down units in melee in this edition. You need to kill what you charge, or suffer the wrath of the rest of the army next turn without having accomplished your goal.

 brokbrok wrote:
Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.

There are a number of factors working against melee this edition.

-Overwatch is not only still here, but can be attempted by every unit, even vehicles, old blast weapons etc, and they can overwatch every unit that charges until one makes it in. It's all fun and games until a quad las predator hits multiple times on overwatch against your furioso dread.

-Units that don't like the combat can waltz right on outta there. This means against any target you want to hit, you get one turn of swings. You no longer get to stick in and fight it out unless your opponent is happy to let you, which is probably bad news for your dudes. In older editions you could expect combat BAMF's like Dante to get their swings twice if they made it in. Now just once, and getting into combat and then being left there most likely put you in a more compromising position than you'd like.

-Screening blob units are very powerful right now, due to an extreme lack of weapons and units that can get them out of the way efficiently. You would think "flamers and blasts" naturally, until you play against say, conscripts, and have a flamer roast one dude and a rapid fire battle cannon drop like 3. And since you can't get them out of the way, melee guys either waste themselves jumping into the screen, or chill until an unacceptably late time in the game when you've finally got them out of the way. At that point, the damage has been done, and your melee force is a day late and dollar short, assuming they're even still alive.

-Cover is harder to get and does less. Melee used to be a relevant solution to knocking out weak guys who had obnoxious cover saves, assuming you weren't playing one of the several armies that could ignore it. Now people rarely rely on those types of units, so via supply and demand, the bully units that always wanted to go after them are mostly out of a job. In addition, cover being more difficult to grab hurts melee units trying to make it to ranged units, but doesn't hurt ranged units who are facing down melee units.

-A minor point, but the unit that you got to does still get to smack you back, sometimes before you swing depending on the CP situation or their abilities. This is another thorn in the side of the old "bully" units, as they tend to be just a little stronger than their targets, and after being whittled, can very realistically lose in melee.

-Any gun that used to be twin-linked is now deadlier. And depending on the melee unit in question, any amount of AP is now deadlier.

-It's easier to make a good shooting formation get buffs from characters than it is to get a melee group to access similar buffs while also trying to pile in and swing with as much as possible.

Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".

The end result of the current rule set is that melee units that do not hit like trucks are very...questionable in their usefulness. The role of "pestering and tying up enemy units" hardly exists anymore, so chaff melee units like assault marines are having existential crises. And with shooting power rising, even good melee units are forced to answer a very plain question. Can you reliably get to the enemy suffering no more than 1 shooting phase and 1 overwatch, and then will you kill what you hit? If the answer is no, on the shelf it goes.

What that means is that it's difficult to be a deathstar unless you're the best deathstar.

Have you tried massed assault? You can easily fit three death company with jump packs and mixed weaponry, and a sanguinary priest for 400-500 or so points (three squads with 1 hammer 4 axes each is 420; three less, obviously, with swords). Two of those detachments plus a main detachment of longer-ranged firepower to support them isn't a terrible core, and can spread out or focus its charge as needed.

 Melissia wrote:
What that means is that it's difficult to be a deathstar unless you're the best deathstar.

Have you tried massed assault? You can easily fit three death company with jump packs and mixed weaponry, and a sanguinary priest for 400-500 or so points (three squads with 1 hammer 4 axes each is 420; three less, obviously, with swords). Two of those detachments plus a main detachment of longer-ranged firepower to support them isn't a terrible core, and can spread out or focus its charge as needed.

I was rocking a dual-threat list early in the edition with a firebase sitting back, while the other half of the army was Lemartes, Sanguinor, a priest, and several DC squads. It worked against the less competitive lists, but as soon as I started seeing 'scripts, brims, stormravens, quantum shield walls, scions, etc, they just kinda tried to wait for the optimal timing, were forced to come in t3, and then got mowed down.

Against conscripts you really have no choice but to focus if you want to get rid of them for what thy're protecting. Thankfully it's trivial to charge them with a lot of units as they're such a large squad.

As far as stormravens go, actually you CAN charge them as they're flyers. Don't forget that. The enemy does have to keep them moving and that doesn't always give the enemy a chance to keep their flyer out of the way, unless they're in hover mode-- in which case they're eaiser to hit to begin with.

Scions I... yeah, scions fething hit like a truck and by the time you can kill them they've already done a lotof damage. Not sure.

Oh I know what to theoretically do against them (sans the scions) it's just that it tends to not work anyway. The DC don't hit hard enough to down a raven that they charge if they miraculously catch it, and it flies away with no penalties. The conscripts tanking a mass charge still take up enough board space that the surviving melee units can't get to the backlines before all the shelling brings them down. And that's assuming I pass the amount of charges I need to make to actually cripple the 'scripts. More often they'll have the back ranks left especially when using good wound allocation to knock some DC out of striking range.

I've pretty much switched back to "red shooty marines stealing some chapter tactic" for the time being. Hopefully the codex will bring us some more punch.

What weapons are you using?

Bear in mind, the stormraven is T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ save. So you'll want something like thunder hammers, power fists, and the like hitting it if you charge it.

Anything less and you'll be wounding on a 5+, where powerfists and thunder hammers wound on a 3+. Since there's no reason for a non-character to go with a fist when it could have a hammer, I'll do some math for the hammer.

With three attacks on the charge hitting on 4+ (remember, the -1 to hit only applies to shooting, so just this is only the standard -1 to hit for being a hammer), wounding on 3+, reducing save to 6+, and doing 1d6 damage, each thunder hammer death company would do on average three damage in the charge turn, requiring on average a full squad to kill it outright in one turn.

Obviously getting a squad of thunder hammers to it alive to hit it all in one turn is difficult, but any damage your shooting does to it before that would require less. Of course doing thunder hammers this makes these units less powerful against hordes.

This assumes one squad unsupported. A chaplain accompanying them increases their average to four and a third damage per turn, meaning you'd only need three or four thunder hammers to charge in one turn. Similar result for a librarian casting unleash rage, with the benefit of range at the risk of all psychic powers. Both used together to buff the thunder hammers would mean, two or three thunder hammers would be needed on average to take it down in one turn.

These are just averages of course, taken in a vacuum. I'm just saying... the right tool for the job. Hopefully once we get a codex fists and hammers will be reduced price and taking them will be much less intimidating...

During the games where I was using the dual-threat list, I was using DC squads with a sword and a thunder hammer out of every 5 models. As you say, the hammers (and fists) are prohibitively expensive on 1 wound dudes, so anything more than that in wargear and they just become giant priority targets. Getting 3 of those squads with a character aura to melee a stormraven that moves almost quadruple their speed is quite a task.

I appreciate that you're trying to speak politely and be helpful, but I am a very experienced player. (I don't bother going into my resume on forums unless someone specifically asks.) I understand the basics, and having them repeated to me as if they're new information is ...flustering? Not on any serious scale, but it's there. I just wanted to let you know I'm not a newbie.

Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.

For some reason I was thinking 1d6, not 3. Given that I have the rules in front of me, I guess I was kinda distracted

And to be fair, I'm not just doing it for your sake, but for a lot of other people too.

 Melissia wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.

For some reason I was thinking 1d6, not 3. Given that I have the rules in front of me, I guess I was kinda distracted

And to be fair, I'm not just doing it for your sake, but for a lot of other people too.

I'm one of the people benefitting from this conversation, so thank you.

In the games I've played and watched it seemed that the player that was able to dictate the flow of the game by placement of infiltrating troops and using drop/terminators really had a leg up. Even on some of the blobbier armies such as IG and orks. I'm trying to craft my list around that idea with some early game infiltrators (scouts) and armor (razorback with DC or melta assault) on the board. I've got additional DC and assault marines, as well as drop pod carrying tacticals or devastators. It all feels very "Blood Angels" to me.

I just haven't played in forever and the games have been a learning experience to say the least. I also am using models I own, so some things haven't made the table yet like Stormravens and SG.

Anyway, good info. Thanks!

 Coyote81 wrote:

The main problem is that is really hard to lock down units in melee in this edition. You need to kill what you charge, or suffer the wrath of the rest of the army next turn without having accomplished your goal.

I think that melee needs to be used differently in this edition. A glorious charge into the heart of the enemy only works if you have units with Berserker levels of damage output. Charging units on the flanks is much safer as there is less mutual support available to shoot you if your target withdraws from combat. Assaulting with multiple units also works as then several units are either stuck in combat or lose a turn's shooting as they withdraw. This requires a lot more co-ordination. Then there are opportunistic assaults which you do finish off a mauled unit or to take a heavy weapons unit out of action for a crucial turn, even if it potentially costs you the attacking unit. Lastly there are horde units like big mobz of boyz which can drown opponents in buckets of dice and con't really care about retaliation as they can afford to lose half a dozen models without even blinking.

Melee works differently in 8th and using it in the same way we did in 7th edition is going to give disappointing results. It takes time to adjust to the new rules but it will happen. Basically we need to remember that assault is no longer a surefire way of locking down units in a meat-grinder of attrition.

Melissia wrote:
Obviously getting a squad of thunder hammers to it alive to hit it all in one turn is difficult, but any damage your shooting does to it before that would require less. Of course doing thunder hammers this makes these units less powerful against hordes.

A 5 model DC unit with 5 thunderhammers and JP is 200 pts. If you deepstrike, and dont make the 9" charge you do nothing. If you make it the flyer is in serious trouble. You cannot reroll one die for the charge anymore, you must reroll both now. This reduces your chance to make the charge.
A 5 model company veteran unit with combiplasma and powerswords are 190 pts. They deepstrike, get 10 shots at the flier, hitting on 4+. Then they can charge, if they make it they get another 11 attacks, hitting on 3+. They can at least do damage with plasma, if they fail the charge. They are better against hordes, four shots per model.
A sanguinary priest with the same gear can revive killed models, if you decide to supercharge, increasing plasma damage output significantly, but you will blow up on 1 or 2 against hard to hit flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:

Melee works differently in 8th and using it in the same way we did in 7th edition is going to give disappointing results. It takes time to adjust to the new rules but it will happen. Basically we need to remember that assault is no longer a surefire way of locking down units in a meat-grinder of attrition.

You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.

p5freak wrote:

You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.

That depends entirely on your target. If you are simply thinking of a full frontal assault then you are probably right. If you are thinking about attack the flanks, bullying weaker units or forcing someone off an objective then melee is still viable for us.

We need to stop thinking of melee as the fastest and most efficient way to crush an entire army because you are right, it certainly is not that. Rather it is a tool in the box for attacking the enemy under specific conditions.