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Vilehydra wrote:
I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though

Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though

Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.

At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.

If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.

Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.

True, but the HB gives it a 24 inch weapon for when it's not advancing. I dunno, it just feels like advancing every turn isn't entirely necessary. You can have an ironclad who is great against infantry at range and still crushes vehicles and monsters in CC. If you're relying on a ironclad to chase an ik or something around the board, that's surely not going to end well? They'll just outrun you our kill you. And when advancing straight up rather than side to side I'm still not convinced advancing is going to change that much for the turn two charge. I have a spare DCCW arm so I'll try it out and see what works.

I don’t see an IC surviving versus Knights.

Vilehydra wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though

Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.

At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.

If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.

Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.

If they both deploy 24" away, your Ironclad is never going to charge an Imperial Knight.

Contemptors might have that chance, and Relic Contemptors have an even better chance (no degrading movement is SUPER clutch I can tell ya that), but Ironclads strike me as an odd unit with no real role to fill.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though

Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.

At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.

If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.

Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.

If they both deploy 24" away, your Ironclad is never going to charge an Imperial Knight.

Contemptors might have that chance, and Relic Contemptors have an even better chance (no degrading movement is SUPER clutch I can tell ya that), but Ironclads strike me as an odd unit with no real role to fill.

There have been several games where my IC's have gotten into combat with knights. The knights need board control for objectives just as much as I do, and ICs threaten those knights in the middle.

The best role for the IC that I've seen is as a counter charge to big nasty charging units. String out a few screening units in front of the IC against a charge heavy army, let them hit the front row and on your turn counter assault with the ICs. The problem with this role, is that not all armies are going to have heavy charge components, and against those armies your IC now has to slog across the table to possibly be effective.

I just kind of wish all standard dreadnought chassis got 8" move instead of 6". Makes them much more likely to get that second turn assault.

After a couple games with ironclads and contemptors, i definitely prefer contemptors as speed, 5++, asscan shooting and a few extra wounds seem to be superior in most games to t8 and more mellee punch. Extra speed and 5++ are key. Especially for footslogging.

But when rule of 3 comes into play or when you plan to run a stormraven and have means of protecting the raven turn 1 like running Tigurius, ironclad can be really really good. For just 150 pts you get a cc monster-killer with extra shooting and mortal wounds on the charge to 'everything' around.

Another option might be to run regular dreads with gained invul saves. There are a few options out there.

Though it must be noted that like with most units people consider underwhelming, dreads can still be good enough to win even vs strong lists. But they require certain conditions to function properly. The more they overlap, the better dreads become:
Small or mid-sized games
Spam (get more dreads and armored stuff in the mix)
Ways to deal with ranged antitank like negating damage or killing it before it kills you

For example, my 1250 pt list with 5 codex dreads has been doing great so far because they're meeting 2 out of 3 those conditions. Oh, and i usually focus on scoring via denying your opponent ground. Dreads are pretty good at it. 2 batreps are out there.

 koooaei wrote:
After a couple games with ironclads and contemptors, i definitely prefer contemptors as speed, 5++, asscan shooting and a few extra wounds seem to be superior in most games to t8 and more mellee punch. Extra speed and 5++ are key. Especially for footslogging.

But when rule of 3 comes into play or when you plan to run a stormraven and have means of protecting the raven turn 1 like running Tigurius, ironclad can be really really good. For just 150 pts you get a cc monster-killer with extra shooting and mortal wounds on the charge to 'everything' around.

Another option might be to run regular dreads with gained invul saves. There are a few options out there.

Though it must be noted that like with most units people consider underwhelming, dreads can still be good enough to win even vs strong lists. But they require certain conditions to function properly. The more they overlap, the better dreads become:
Small or mid-sized games
Spam (get more dreads and armored stuff in the mix)
Ways to deal with ranged antitank like negating damage or killing it before it kills you

For example, my 1250 pt list with 5 codex dreads has been doing great so far because they're meeting 2 out of 3 those conditions. Oh, and i usually focus on scoring via denying your opponent ground. Dreads are pretty good at it. 2 batreps are out there.

You don't NEED 4 melee dreads though, especially when you have plenty of ways to avoid that restriction anyway. You have the Codex Contemptor and the FW Relic one, which is 6 right there. The codex one has the degrading movement but it still requires effort to off them or make them not a threat. After that just run the range options...

So, i'm thinking about going back to 40k Hard Mode and start building up a fun "kill this or you'll die" style list, but delivery options are questionable right now.

Has anyone had any recent games using Storm Eagles? Really tempted to try using a couple as suicide missiles, but, i know that the chances of 1 dying first turn if i put 10 terminators (super hard mode) inside of it go up to like 100%.

I don't think I've used the Storm Eagle entry once. Only thing I know is that Minotaurs get a special one for themselves.

Hadn't even bothered with the math on them.

Hi there, I'm running a list which is mixed marines and imperial guard, and want advice on the marine part. This is for ITC tournaments. The big picture concept of this list is that the opponent's lascannons have nothing worth targeting (so they'll be targeting my marines and mortars).

The guard provide a huge number of lasguns and mortars, some autocannons, both deep striking and outflanking plasma guns, and 3 psykers, some of whom can smite effectively. And 17 extra command points.

The role of the marines is to provide accurate firepower, especially where needed against armies that have -1 to hit like Alaitoc or Alpha legion, and anti-tank.

Here's the marine stuff:

Spearhead detachment:
Captain, bike, storm bolter, thunder hammer.
Scout squad, bolters
Ancient, special banner relic
Apothecary
Devastator squad (6 men), armorium cherub, 2 lascannons, plasma cannon, heavy bolter
Devastator squad (6 men), armorium cherub, 2 lascannons, plasma cannon, heavy bolter
Devastator squad, armorium cherub 2 lascannons, missile launcher

My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders? Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.

Salamanders:
Since my opponent usually goes first (33 drops!), I have to deploy my devs out of sight. On their first turn, they hop up stairs and shoot. The captain, upgraded to chapter master, lets them reroll all their 1s and 2s to hit, and they can also reroll one 3 thanks to being Salamanders. The mortal wound stratagems do their thing.
Then they shoot again if an opponent kills them (more mortal wounds, probably), thanks to the ancient, and reroll all misses thanks to the chapter master.
The chapter master is a mini-custodes captain. At 123 points, he has 2/3 of their shooting ability, and between the salamander rerolls, captain rerolls and thunder hammer, he puts out quite a bit of damage when he needs to counter-charge.

If I switch to Raven Guard...
*My devastators become harder to kill.
*You don't get Salamander rerolls anyway when the banner makes you shoot.
*No -1 to hit on the 38% of the time that I go first.
*I don't have to fear basilisks anymore.
*I often don't have to use my Salamander rerolls anyway when facing armies without -1 to hit, because of the chapter master and signum and mortal wound damage which bypasses the wound roll.
*Necrons don't get all those extra hits.
But...
*No Salamander rerolls.
*The chapter master especially loses hand-to-hand effectiveness; Salamander rerolls let him reroll a 2 to hit and a failed wound with his thunder hammer.
*When I go second (usually), I will end up regretting the command points I spent during deployment.

So which way do you guys lean?

I’d go Salamander. RG are vastly overrated.

 Primark G wrote:
I’d go Salamander. RG are vastly overrated.

Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.

I'm also considering dropping the apothecary. Just haven't figured out what to replace him with. Healing the captain after he takes a knight's missile is pretty rage-inducing.

Celerior wrote:
Hi there, I'm running a list which is mixed marines and imperial guard, and want advice on the marine part. This is for ITC tournaments. The big picture concept of this list is that the opponent's lascannons have nothing worth targeting (so they'll be targeting my marines and mortars).

The guard provide a huge number of lasguns and mortars, some autocannons, both deep striking and outflanking plasma guns, and 3 psykers, some of whom can smite effectively. And 17 extra command points.

The role of the marines is to provide accurate firepower, especially where needed against armies that have -1 to hit like Alaitoc or Alpha legion, and anti-tank.

Here's the marine stuff:

Spearhead detachment:
Captain, bike, storm bolter, thunder hammer.
Scout squad, bolters
Ancient, special banner relic
Apothecary
Devastator squad (6 men), armorium cherub, 2 lascannons, plasma cannon, heavy bolter
Devastator squad (6 men), armorium cherub, 2 lascannons, plasma cannon, heavy bolter
Devastator squad, armorium cherub 2 lascannons, missile launcher

My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders? Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.

Salamanders:
Since my opponent usually goes first (33 drops!), I have to deploy my devs out of sight. On their first turn, they hop up stairs and shoot. The captain, upgraded to chapter master, lets them reroll all their 1s and 2s to hit, and they can also reroll one 3 thanks to being Salamanders. The mortal wound stratagems do their thing.
Then they shoot again if an opponent kills them (more mortal wounds, probably), thanks to the ancient, and reroll all misses thanks to the chapter master.
The chapter master is a mini-custodes captain. At 123 points, he has 2/3 of their shooting ability, and between the salamander rerolls, captain rerolls and thunder hammer, he puts out quite a bit of damage when he needs to counter-charge.

If I switch to Raven Guard...
*My devastators become harder to kill.
*You don't get Salamander rerolls anyway when the banner makes you shoot.
*No -1 to hit on the 38% of the time that I go first.
*I don't have to fear basilisks anymore.
*I often don't have to use my Salamander rerolls anyway when facing armies without -1 to hit, because of the chapter master and signum and mortal wound damage which bypasses the wound roll.
*Necrons don't get all those extra hits.
But...
*No Salamander rerolls.
*The chapter master especially loses hand-to-hand effectiveness; Salamander rerolls let him reroll a 2 to hit and a failed wound with his thunder hammer.
*When I go second (usually), I will end up regretting the command points I spent during deployment.

So which way do you guys lean?

With the list you should go RG, you only get 3 important re-roll sets a turn with Salamander CT for this list.

Some suggestions,
If you can make room for it, I'd consider dropping the biker captain (121 pts) to make room for a basic kit captain and LT combo (150 pts) so you need to shift a few points elsewhere. I'm assuming your marine core is going to be highly static and shielded by guardsmen. This means that having a static reroll bubble works just fine to add good support to your firebase. The captain on a bike does NOT get to reroll 2's with the Salamander CT because he is using a -1 to hit weapon, and the reroll is applied before modifiers (Although re-rolling a TH wound for free can be a big game changer).

Salamanders work best with minimum squads carrying a few special weapons that are covered by some bodies. You have 4 heavy weapons, some of which have multiple shots, re-roll support from characters combined with a -1 to hit would be more beneficial here. I also say this as a Salamanders player.

I don't know how your ITC tournament runs, but where I play we interpret the rules to allow the players to choose relics and warlord traits after we have looked at each others lists.

If you do decide to go RG, and don't decide to swap out the captain for re-roll support:
Consider swapping him out for a jump pack captain and giving him the relic JP which allows advancing+charging and re-roll charge rolls, then give him the ignores OW warlord trait. This is most useful Vs. Tau/DA.
If your not concerned with OW fire, give him the Armor indomitus for that sweet 2+ and 3++ for a turn or the shield eternal to halve damage.

If you decide to stick with Salamanders and the Bike captain,
consider giving him the salamanders mantle to make him T6. Makes him much more survivable vs strength 5,6,10. If your going against Deldar, making him T6 is a pretty big deal because of Dissie Fire.

Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.

So let's talk characters.

A lieutenant provides minimal benefit given the prevalence of invul saves and the few units that benefit. The mortal wound stratagems don't need to roll to wound, either. I'd rather outflank another Tallarn special weapon squad with 3 plasma guns, for less points.

The biker captain is 123 points (unless I'm wrong again?) because of the twin boltgun that comes with the bike plus my storm bolter. The chapter master is a counter-charge unit in most cases. His primary mission is boosting the devastators, except in extreme circumstances.

The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.

I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.

Should I drop the apothecary? Sometimes he brings back armorium cherubs, but if I drop him I can hand out a ton of plasma guns and boltguns to Cadian infantry squads.

Celerior wrote:
Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.

The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.

I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.

Sh

The JP captain gets -
- Deepstrike
- Fly (can ignore chaff screens if needed)
- May benefit from Sfts
- Diagonal/Horizontal Interactions

The ability to keep your captain off the board first turn can be invaluable. It can keep him alive (in the case of Shieldbreakers or sniping flyers) and it forces the opponent to screen.

A bikes effective move range can be cut down by chaff, flyers can simply move over chaff which could yield significant benefits in both the movement and charge phase.

StfS is pretty risky, but some matchups it could be worth it. Combined with the Ravens fury JP you could get off some juicy charges

Because deepstrike range is measured diagonally, but move range for a Fly unit ignores vertical distances you can deepstrike and get some >9" charges as well.

Basically it comes down to the fact that the JP Cap is significantly more flexible than a biker Cap. There are just more positional options with the JP than the bike, but it is a tradeoff for the bikes durability. I personally value the flexibility more than the tankiness but that is also a personal preference.

As per the LT, I'd recommend running one. Those plasma guns (which only cost 63 points?) are probably going to get one round off and then promptly die. The LT is going to be giving advantages the entire game as long as your dev's don't get mulched. Your using the SM to hit those pesky -1/-2 units. Which means that after you hit, your going to want as many of those hits to convert to wounds, sure you have Hellfire and flakk which are great strategems, but your also running 6 Lascannons 2 Plascannons, and One HB that can't use hellfire. Rerolling 1's to wound every turn on weapons that generally wound on 3+ goes a decent way in ensuring those weapons do damage when they hit.

My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders?Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.

Hey. Question on this, as I'm presented with a slightly similar issue... When people say, 'will I run them as x or y', what do they mean exactly. Surely if they're painted one way or another, then that's what they are, no? Is it considered acceptable to run them with different rules?

I ask because, I'm about to restart the hobby after a long, long time away. I have a bundle of boxes of marines, and I like the red scorpion paint job. I was a bit inspired by the guy who writes the chucking monkeys blog. However, I'll be trying to compete against some seriously min maxing friends, and I'm nervous about being too hamstrung by the state marines are in.

Basically, to get to the point, how acceptable is it to paint them as red scorpions and use them as Raven guard (successors or whatever)?

RAW you can play them as whatever chapter you want (regardless of the paint job) as long as you can tell different detachments apart (if you are running some as RG and some as UM they shouldn't be the same part).

Some parts of the community think that if they are from an identifiable chapter based on their paint job then they should stick with that paint job (I think games workshop has this rule for one of their tournaments but it has sparked a good deal of controversy).

On the fringes are custom paint jobs. Some people say you can use whatever rules you want, others are saying you need to play them as successor (which precludes you from using chapter specific characters).

I've shown up with my black templar paint job and used them as ultra marines which is technically legal but you will get side-eye from the more fluff minded characters (especially if you beat them...)

At this point I'm painting MY models what-ever color I want to and screw whoever has a problem with it and until they can point to me in the rules where I have to paint MY miniatures a certain way then screw them. At least in a competitive setting, for more casual games I'll run them as whatever the fluff or competitive level dictates.

Vilehydra wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.

The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.

I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.

Sh

The JP captain gets -
- Deepstrike
- Fly (can ignore chaff screens if needed)
- May benefit from Sfts
- Diagonal/Horizontal Interactions

The ability to keep your captain off the board first turn can be invaluable. It can keep him alive (in the case of Shieldbreakers or sniping flyers) and it forces the opponent to screen.

A bikes effective move range can be cut down by chaff, flyers can simply move over chaff which could yield significant benefits in both the movement and charge phase.

StfS is pretty risky, but some matchups it could be worth it. Combined with the Ravens fury JP you could get off some juicy charges

Because deepstrike range is measured diagonally, but move range for a Fly unit ignores vertical distances you can deepstrike and get some >9" charges as well.

Basically it comes down to the fact that the JP Cap is significantly more flexible than a biker Cap. There are just more positional options with the JP than the bike, but it is a tradeoff for the bikes durability. I personally value the flexibility more than the tankiness but that is also a personal preference.

As per the LT, I'd recommend running one. Those plasma guns (which only cost 63 points?) are probably going to get one round off and then promptly die. The LT is going to be giving advantages the entire game as long as your dev's don't get mulched. Your using the SM to hit those pesky -1/-2 units. Which means that after you hit, your going to want as many of those hits to convert to wounds, sure you have Hellfire and flakk which are great strategems, but your also running 6 Lascannons 2 Plascannons, and One HB that can't use hellfire. Rerolling 1's to wound every turn on weapons that generally wound on 3+ goes a decent way in ensuring those weapons do damage when they hit.

One thing to keep in mind is using a Biker Captain AS a chaff cleaner. Storm Bolter with the Combi-Bolter, Teeth of Terra. Bam, done.

Fair point, although it seems like that list has plenty of chaff clearing.
Your point also gave me an idea, give the biker a TH and chainsword. If there is a bunch of chaff that needs clearing, make it the Teeth of Terra. Then give him the +1 attack when charging WL trait. That becomes 5 TH attacks and 1d3 ToT attacks which can be doubled using the fight again strategem. That's going to scare almost any big models while also allowing him to chunk big parts of chaff. Don't know how effective it would be though.

what he said

Just FYI, afaik Salamanders is still re-roll failed hits/wounds not any, so it wouldn't allow you to re-roll any hits that the Chapter Master doesn't already allow you to (so no re-rolling that 3 for the devastators that moved). The benefit of Salamanders in this case would be limited to 1 wound re-roll per unit and a little deployment flexibility allowing you to deploy or move outside the CM bubble

 Brother Payne wrote:
Just FYI, afaik Salamanders is still re-roll failed hits/wounds not any, so it wouldn't allow you to re-roll any hits that the Chapter Master doesn't already allow you to (so no re-rolling that 3 for the devastators that moved). The benefit of Salamanders in this case would be limited to 1 wound re-roll per unit and a little deployment flexibility allowing you to deploy or move outside the CM bubble

Which is already lackluster to begin with, so when you add the lame relic, Strategem, and Warlord trait, you got essentially a bad army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’d go Salamander. RG are vastly overrated.

Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.

Space marines do most their damage at 12" range though - so -1 to hit doesn't help them too much.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’d go Salamander. RG are vastly overrated.

Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.

Space marines do most their damage at 12" range though - so -1 to hit doesn't help them too much.

Only if the opponent's whole army is there sure. Those odds are pretty low so taking the better Chapter Tactic and Stratagem is a no-brainer.

Seriously with this codex there's no room for talking about "overrated" just because someone wants to look cool and different. Salamanders are just bad. We need to get over that.

Salamanders are fine.

 Primark G wrote:
Salamanders are fine.

I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.

RG CT only really helps certain units. I have not seen anything amazing from them this edition TBH.

 Primark G wrote:
RG CT only really helps certain units. I have not seen anything amazing from them this edition TBH.

Compared to SALAMANDERS? Raven Guard at least gets use in tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Salamanders are fine.

I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.

It really doesn't. It doesn't increase damage output by a lot for an army already lacking in the offense department, whereas Raven Guard and at least Iron Hands help in the durability department more where Marines lack. Shame Iron Hands have a bad Warlord Trait and Strategem. Their relic isn't TERRIBLE at least?