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Thanks that’s helped quite a bit. Just to add a little more depth I was wondering about Primaris units and deep striking troops, more the power armoured ones than terminators. I would assume that both would be better as MSU but with some Primaris I’m not sure

The vanilla dex doesn't really have many good deepstriking options. You could dip into DW for that, though.

I tend to run my primaris guys as msu. There are a few situations where that’s not the best option, like say if you’re filling a repulsor with two characters and four aggressors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.

Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.

ironclad dreadnoughts can take two HK missiles. And yeah, MMs aren't good with SL CTs, just decent

 McNinja wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.

Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.

ironclad dreadnoughts can take two HK missiles. And yeah, MMs aren't good with SL CTs, just decent

Basically Ironclads and Leviathans. That's it.

In general MSU are the best for Primaris outside a few fringe cases. (If you are using a Rhino Primaris to buff a unit of Hellblasters for instance, or an Auspex Scan Stratagem to nail a DS unit). Only ones I really consider are Hellblasters for above reasons, or Hellblasters and Aggressors if you are using Strike from the Shadows to get them in a better position. Otherwise I take MSU when I am running Codex: SM.

Deepstrikers tend to be somewhat lackluster for Marines. Vanguard Vets are passable. Sternguard in a pod can do the job, albeit expensively. You can stick 8 Heavy Weapons or 10 Special weapons in a pod depending on what units you are putting in, and they will do some damage, they just cost a lot. Now if you are willing to allie in other kinds of marines the options open up a bit. Blood Angels and Deathwatch have some great deep strikers. Even Space Wolves can throw some nasty stuff in too so it depends on what you're looking for.

As a BA player myself it is not worth to run them with other space marines chapters unless you are fielding the AM batallion. The smash captain burns tons of CP. I think it is much better to run a ravenguard army and then deep strike some nasty deathwatch marines (10 hellblasters of 10 veterans with stormbolter are the best choices in my opinion) who can really lay down the pain without burning too may CP's.

I am toying around with a BA Battalion and a DW Battalion right now... I have seen other people succeed with t but I haven't tried it myself yet.

I also can say that RG with DW is pretty good. I have done that myself and it does fairly well. I use RG Devastators and a big unit of RG Aggressors then put Intercessors in for the DW with a big DS blob of Hellblasters (or two) and a big unit of Vets with Storm Bolters

Whenever anyone talks about C:SM they said it is bad unless you run a Guilliman gun-line. Can a Guilliman gun-line be run at 1500? I am trying to run one and I just feel like I don't have enough threats sinking 400pts into the G-man.

 Sonminiser wrote:
Whenever anyone talks about C:SM they said it is bad unless you run a Guilliman gun-line. Can a Guilliman gun-line be run at 1500? I am trying to run one and I just feel like I don't have enough threats sinking 400pts into the G-man.

Not at post double nerf points.
He is overcosted like crazy now and needs the full 1600 points of the rest of the list to be optimised to be viable.

Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.

Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.

Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.

Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.

Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.

He definitely is. All they really need to do is remove the reroll wounds ability and that would go a long way towards fixing things.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.

Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.

Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.

except Gulliman is famous as a general and tactitican not as a warrior.

Interesting thought I had about Gulliman for a rule change.

Master of the Codex: Choose one unit within 12" of Gulliman, that unit may reroll all failed hits and rolls for that unit. He may spend a command point to choose an additional unit and 2 more CP to choose a third.

Tones down buffing literally everything around him. Just an idea that popped into my head. Makes him feel more commanderly.

I think currently Guilliman is best pair up with 2 double Stormcannon Levithans. These three models alone costs over 1000pts sure, but they have awesome firepower. 20 shots from each Dread, BS2 (so hit on 3s on the move) Str7 2dmg rerolls to hit and wound is nothing to look down to, it is the fire power closed to IK Crusader Knight. And being T8 2+/4++ is almost the same level of defence to an IK. The only problem is it has a threat range of only 32", and have to take around 190pts minimum tax (2 naked Devastator Squad to fullfil the requirement of "relic" and one Techmarine HQ).

Vilehydra wrote:
Interesting thought I had about Gulliman for a rule change.

Master of the Codex: Choose one unit within 12" of Gulliman, that unit may reroll all failed hits and rolls for that unit. He may spend a command point to choose an additional unit and 2 more CP to choose a third.

Tones down buffing literally everything around him. Just an idea that popped into my head. Makes him feel more commanderly.

i think you’re onto something here. I’d like to see something like this for all buffing HQs, not just Guilliman. The trouble with auras is that they encourage you to blob up as much as possible to maximise the bonus, and that’s boring.

I much prefer things like IG orders where you get officers handing out buffs to units. In theory these buffs could be as significant as what Guilliman does, if not more so better commanders might be able to give out more orders.

Overall I think this kind of system could work a lot better than the current thing of having auras, and maybe it could replace some stratagems too.

Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.

jcd386 wrote:
Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.

He is a Primarch though so he should atleast provide the equivelent buff as a Chaptor Master, even giving him the LT's buff wouldn't be broken, but yes his reroll all failed wounds is totally unbalanceable.

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.

He is a Primarch though so he should atleast provide the equivelent buff as a Chaptor Master, even giving him the LT's buff wouldn't be broken, but yes his reroll all failed wounds is totally unbalanceable.

I agree, but I don't love that he pretty much removes the need for chapter masters and LTs etc. I think ideally he'd work well along side them and provide some other buff or special ability.

Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.

Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.

Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.

Yup I'd be very okay with that.

Okay so I have a tournament coming, and only my SM are 100% wysiwyg.
However, I have no clue at all of what is bad and what is worse anymore, I haven't played them for months, and all I see when I try to make a new 1500pts list is a big amount of garbage...

I thought about 3 scouts squads, 1 biker scout squad, probably a thunderfire, its stratagem is golden against genestealers and quick foes, but then...

Unfortunately, I have several armored units, such as dreadnoughts, predators, rhinos, flyers...
All less than useful
I could play a full armoured list, totally not meta, maybe surprising my opponents, but SM vehicles simply aren't good, so it would really be all or nothing

I used to play vv, but they were never great and now they have been nerfed, I don't think I want them into my tournament list

How would you go to a tournament with SM, without primaris (I have none) ?

 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.

Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.

Well duh obviously it's better. Problem being a) it leads to gunline parking lot armies which isn't that interesting b) makes balancing him lot harder. If you don't factor his rerolls to other units they will easily end up underpriced. If yes they will be ovepriced with him. And if you up his price...well how much stuff he will be buffing? Impossible to tell, impossible to assign fair value.

X unit buffing is obviously less powerful but much more easier to balance so that he's less under/overpriced and other units can be balanced so that you aren't screwed by NOT having Guilliman and allows playing Guillimann without parking lot bunched up gunline.

So what are people's thoughts on the state of the marines after the Raven Guard nerf? Is the hit penalty enough of a reason to keep using the RG?

What else would you run? It's still the most powerful Chapter Tactic by a long shot.

If nothing else, the current situation of the Codex is excellent ammunition to bring out every time someone whines about how unfair it is that Marines are such Special Snowflakes that they always get great rules for everything. That's something, I guess.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

If you want to alpha strike, if seems pretty good.

Martel732 wrote:
If you want to alpha strike, if seems pretty good.

Not any more...

Why not?

Martel732 wrote:
Why not?

Have you read the latest FAQ?