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Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.

That seems to be straight conjecture on some people's part. New Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems are all that seem to be confirmed at this point.

Maybe they will fix chapter tactics then!

stratigo wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though

Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)

Vilehydra wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though

Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)

Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.

I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient

If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.

From the new White Dwarf?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though

Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)

Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.

I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient

If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.

Don't over commit points, hellblasters can still be tied down and made ineffective. Guilleman helped with this because of how much of a melee beatstick he was (and UM CT's are actually really good for hellblasters). You'll want to spend points on the screens for them.

Vilehydra wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though

Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)

Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.

I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient

If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.

Don't over commit points, hellblasters can still be tied down and made ineffective. Guilleman helped with this because of how much of a melee beatstick he was (and UM CT's are actually really good for hellblasters). You'll want to spend points on the screens for them.

Six 5-man squads of Intercessors help out with that. And 21 for the Hellblasters plus those of the Lieutenant(I run two Power Sword LTs) are pretty damn good. I wish they could take a Power Fist on their Sergeant too, but such is life. But yeah, I am thinking it will just be the Ancient and LT backing the Hellblasters, the Apothecary would be overkill. Still 37 pts cheaper than Azrael. Likely putting the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant on the Ancient as well (Primaris Ancient for the extra wound).

At any rate, the fact they are a big bubble of nope means they are going to draw fire, which means they shoot back(possibly with Heroes of Rynn's World for additional shots). And then my Aggressors get ignored. I dunno, it isn't broken by any means, but it is a pretty mean combo.

Sergeants do get Chainswords and power fists now with the updated datasheet from chapter Approved (but still no plasma pistols)

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Sergeants do get Chainswords and power fists now with the updated datasheet from chapter Approved (but still no plasma pistols)

Not Hellblasters Sergeants though. I have three Power Fist Intercessor Sergeants and three Chainsword Intercessor Sergeants now though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.

Well, according to today's preview, the Crimson Fists Index Astarters article will, in fact, have Chapter Tactics in it, in addition to Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems.

I am curious what those Chapter Tactics will be. Will they just be a reprint of the Codex Chapter Tactic, or something new. I have grown accustomed to not having to worry about cover, so losing Ignores Cover on everyone would kind of suck. Also, the Emperor's Spears' Chapter Tactics was pretty lackluster, hopefully the new Crimson Fists one is better than that. I really hope it isn't something stupid and focused on Orks.

Thanks for the heads up,

I'll be only using what I ordered for starters :
4 Supremacy force
A Redemptor box
A Primaris librarian
5 Leviathan dreads

I also have access to a friend's 5 Whirlwinds.

My first game with my primaris will be using the new Cities of death rules and stratagem @4k points vs 1 CraftWorld/Drukhari alliance (2k/2k).
Having everything glued & magnetised for end of January will be a challenge in itself

What do we think of Company Veterans on Bikes with Storm Bolters and Storm Shields? Sure, they're 180 for 5, but they're T5, 2 wounds, 3++ and put out 40 shots in rapid fire range, and can get 5+++ if you're running them as BT from the Sword Brethren stratagem. Too vulnerable to Disintegrators and the like?

Even with the 3++, they're each almost 40 points. That's too much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even with the 3++, they're each almost 40 points. That's too much.

I don't think it's all that bad. Compare it to the equal cost of a DW storm bolter/storm shield bomb. It's basically a codex marine version of it - carries the same number of 3++ wounds, same number of shots, but trades SIA for 8'' more in movement, T5, the ability to tank wounds for mobile beatstick characters, and depending on the chapter might have some decent tactics to play with. Thanks to the 3++, most 2 damage weapons aren't all that efficient at killing them.

I think that's a pretty good price for all that.

Especially with the new missions in play that reward mobility.

Im considering removing hellblasters from my list as theyve become quite expensive compared to our other AT options. What are you guys taking for mid-field anti tank weapons? I feel like most are taking backline like devs and rapiers.

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even with the 3++, they're each almost 40 points. That's too much.

I don't think it's all that bad. Compare it to the equal cost of a DW storm bolter/storm shield bomb. It's basically a codex marine version of it - carries the same number of 3++ wounds, same number of shots, but trades SIA for 8'' more in movement, T5, the ability to tank wounds for mobile beatstick characters, and depending on the chapter might have some decent tactics to play with. Thanks to the 3++, most 2 damage weapons aren't all that efficient at killing them.

I think that's a pretty good price for all that.

Especially with the new missions in play that reward mobility.

There are several D2 weapons that won't care about the 3++.

Also the SIA is definitely a deal breaker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
Im considering removing hellblasters from my list as theyve become quite expensive compared to our other AT options. What are you guys taking for mid-field anti tank weapons? I feel like most are taking backline like devs and rapiers.

Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.

My LGS has a Salamander's player who rolls with Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're swingy as hell, but goddamn hilarious when they do something like vaporize a Land Raider with one shot.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.

My LGS has a Salamander's player who rolls with Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're swingy as hell, but goddamn hilarious when they do something like vaporize a Land Raider with one shot.

Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.

He plays Salamanders entirely for fluff reasons, and is aware of the weirdness that is <CHAPTER> when it comes to the SM codex.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.

He plays Salamanders entirely for fluff reasons, and is aware of the weirdness that is <CHAPTER> when it comes to the SM codex.

To be honest anyone still playing Codex marines is playing for fluff, but good on him for dipping into the forgeworld stuff to keep marine's in the casually viable army club.

IMHO 8th edition has very much split into two/three seperate games currently, fluff only armies, mono viable and GT winning soup.
While it's good that Marines got a lot of pointa cuts in CA 2018, I'm still not convinced that they have jumped up enough to really be a viable list in competitive settings.

Ice_can wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.

He plays Salamanders entirely for fluff reasons, and is aware of the weirdness that is <CHAPTER> when it comes to the SM codex.

To be honest anyone still playing Codex marines is playing for fluff, but good on him for dipping into the forgeworld stuff to keep marine's in the casually viable army club.

IMHO 8th edition has very much split into two/three seperate games currently, fluff only armies, mono viable and GT winning soup.
While it's good that Marines got a lot of pointa cuts in CA 2018, I'm still not convinced that they have jumped up enough to really be a viable list in competitive settings.

Especially when you consider Deathwatch got the same point drops.

Compare a single Deathwatch Vet at 15 points to a Tactical or Chaos Marine. For 2 points (gotta include the Bolter), you get an extra attack (or two extra if you went for Chainsword over Pistol), extra LD, and SIA.

Add in that you can sprinkle Storm Shields as you please and the benefits of squashing in either Vanguard or Terminators...

So, saw this leak pop up over on the news thread...Crimson Fists rules, but they aren't consistent in the thread so it's either they wren't rea they aren't real - take with salt, as usual.

New Chapter Tactics: +1 to hit against units with more models than your attacking unit (later in the thread it's mentioned that this applies only if the unit has TWICE as many models as the attacking unit, so conflicting information - looks to be Dreads count as 5)

Warlord Traits:
Tenacious Opponent: Same as Codex
Refuse to Die: Get back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds the first time you die
Stoic Defender: All Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts gain Defenders of Humanity If they are within 6" of the Warlord. If they already had it, they count as 2 models per 1 model

Stratagems:
Bolter Drill: Same as Codex.
A Hated Foe: Target Unit rerolls all wounds against Ork units
Slay the Tyrant: Target Unit adds +1 to hit against Characters

Relics:
Fist of Vengeance: Same as Codex
Duty's Burden: Replaces Bolt Rifle 36", RF 2, Str 5, AP-2, D2

Thoughts? A few ramblings below...

At face value, the Chapter Tactic looks to be good for MSU units and single model units like Dreadnoughts - Redemptors that basically ignore the movement penalty by shooting something with at least 2 models? Okay. Got too excited before getting more info.

Bolter Drill could be amazing if you can get it to proc with the Chapter Tactic and the new Specialist Detachment.

Fist of Vengeance still boss. The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right?

So which Chapter Tactic for Crimson Fists is better?

Siege Masters: Ignore Cover and reroll wounds against buildings

No Matter the Odds: +1 to hit against units with twice as many models as your unit.

It seems like No Matter the Odds will do great against Hordes, or or even start to kick in as you take casualties against even MSU armies. Characters become very nasty since they will be able to trigger the +1 to hit fairly easily. It makes characters with Thunder Hammers or Power Fists pretty good. Things like Company Veterans with two models are going to be a little nuts.

Mentioned it in the other thread, but it's pretty interesting how one will have to play around with this new tactic. Units that benefit the most from +1 to hit will need to be selected for shooting first as the effect will drop in value as you cause casualties. Likewise, as you take casualties it starts to jump up more often. Should be fun.

Unless you're character hunting with your own characters, they'll be pretty potent with it. Definitely makes power fists on Intercessor Sergeants a common mainstay I think as well. MSU all the way here.

A pretty potent bolt rifle for a Primaris captain, too. Love that - gonna have to toss together some ideas on how to bling one up modeling wise.

Being able to ignore cover is great and all, but really battlefield and opponent dependent, I think. The building thing is worthless, of course. I think this is fluffier and has more depth.

It seems like, as the game goes on, Crimson Fists will become better shots. This is really helpful. I run MSU anyway (outside of my 10-Man Hellblaster Squad for using Heroes of Rynn's World to wreck face.), so I will be getting the benefit fairly easily. Most armies have a basic Troop that is 10+ models. So they will be shooting those troops pretty well. Guard, Tyranids, and Orks beware. Especially when the Aggressors show up.

Is an all-primaris force viable now with the new point changes?

All that does is further encourage MSU. Ignores Cover is a better benefit so I would recommend sticking with that. The rest though seems decent.

The revival trait is good. The Objective Secured is too specific (because Objective Secured is a non-rule) but I think it really only benefits Dreads in a funny manner if you're using them to camp and shoot.

Slay The Tyrant is actually really good. I like that.

The Bolt Rifle relic is about the same level as Primarchs Wrath. It's fine for a buffing character if you want them to actually contribute, and that's about it.

Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.

Even a battalion of spacemarines is a problem in finding efficient units for their points.

Most of the efficient units for their points are in either the elite or heavy slots, which punishes any attempt to leverage strategums.
Not to mention the kick in the nuts of vehicles being chapter for 0 benefits.