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Plus Sicarans with Lascannon sponsons wouldn't be much more expensive and could even be better anyway.

With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?

For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.

Thoughts?

 Dr. Mills wrote:
With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?

For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.

Thoughts?

All units shoot one at a time. So the first one fires and gets +1 and kill 4 guardsmen. Next squad does the same and gets plus 1 to hit because they are still outnumbered. They kill 4 as well. The 3rd intercessor squad fires this time, but now the infantry squad is only down to two guys and as such do not outnumber the third intercessor squad thus no +1 to hit,

 Dr. Mills wrote:
With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?

For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.

Thoughts?

Units fire one at a time.

So if the first squad killed 6 of the enemy, the second squad would not gain the benefit. If the first squad only killed 4, the second squad would still benefit.

"... attacks an enemy unit that contains twice as many models as their own."

So if a targeted unit of 10 by YOUR unit of 5, take a single casualty all other squads of 5 will lose their +1 to hit it.

Unless your shooting at nids, cultist blobs or orks, or taking heavy casualties (in which case you aint going to have much dakka left in the squad) its very... well... -shrugs-

Atron wrote:
"... attacks an enemy unit that contains twice as many models as their own."

So if a targeted unit of 10 by YOUR unit of 5, take a single casualty all other squads of 5 will lose their +1 to hit it.

Unless your shooting at nids, cultist blobs or orks, or taking heavy casualties (in which case you aint going to have much dakka left in the squad) its very... well... -shrugs-

That's why Aggressors, Inceptors, and Assault Centurions are the best dudes for the new rules. Plus they all benefit from Bolter Drill.

That's clearly not a coincidence.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Predators are decent right? Finally got mine built and magnetized.

Preds are decent, used to use them extensively till I swapped them out for a knight. They also got slightly better when they introduced the entrenched positions strategem. Although I only equipped them with the predator AC, because flat 3 damage guns (that can go to 4 damage guns) that absolutely shred lightly armored vehicles (like ravagers), yes please. But as others have pointed out, they are pretty squishy so I tend to go barebones when I use them, the lascannon sponsons just make them too much of a point sink.

It depends on the army and how your using the preds as well. They work amazing in my space wolf force, always take 3 there, because stormcaller puts them in cover and the strat to make them -1 to hit... predators that are save 2+ and -1 to hit are not going anywhere.

Regular/vanilla marine preds i think work best as just autocannon and heavy bolters. Makes them cheap enough but still a threat to be viable.

Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit

IVIOOSE wrote:
Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit

ForgeWorld FAQd their Dreadnought so you can't give them Relics, sadly.

IVIOOSE wrote:
Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit

He's a cool dude for sure, granted limited in use. The TL Lascannon is now 10 points cheaper so I'd probably go that route.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IVIOOSE wrote:
Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit

ForgeWorld FAQd their Dreadnought so you can't give them Relics, sadly.

It really isn't like a lot of them were absurd. The complaints of the few really hurt everything else.

IVIOOSE wrote:
Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit

I have one, and it was pretty underwhelming when I fielded it. But I just ran it forwards in the open which was pretty dumb, so it's probably not a very good representation for him. Also I've had success in the past with the ironclad, so I'd imagine the Chaplain dread can fill the same role but better, as it has a 5++ and can't be targeted because it's a character.

How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.

kingheff wrote:
How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.

Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

kingheff wrote:
How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.

Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?

Just to shield them from first round fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since they're both likely to sit in the back field the transport is just a minor feature since you're unlikely to move the hellios forward much anyway. Roll in and jump out, blast away. The missiles look nice for digging out hidden units.

kingheff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

kingheff wrote:
How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.

Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?

Just to shield them from first round fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since they're both likely to sit in the back field the transport is just a minor feature since you're unlikely to move the hellios forward much anyway. Roll in and jump out, blast away. The missiles look nice for digging out hidden units.

A Rhino is going to do that for SO much cheaper. Based on the fact that no Land Raider variant has a lot of firepower for the price and is easily stopped from firing anyway (THE LONE GENESTEALER CHARGES!), I think you can maybe put that idea on the back burner.

But does a rhino come with a 72" indirect fire missile launcher? I love the humble rhino, but apart from the transport capacity they're not really comparable units.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't take one to a major tournament but it's a tough tank with a decent amount of very long range firepower, a bit overcosted but it's hardly the only marine choice guilty of that.
Yes, it can be shut down by melee but so does everything bar units with fly and stuff like knights. At least the 48" range of the guns should keep it back from that happening too quickly.

With the price difference you can buy a Whirlwind too, which does have a 72" indirect fire missile launcher.

Yeah, it may be good as a one trick pony (you may catch your opponent off guard with dropping it down the first time) but once they know you have it its not that hot.

Its like the land raider excelsior, the first time you drop it down and bump it up to t9 with a 3++ armor save (hello might of heros and pop that relic armor forcefield when you need to make it unkillable) it will catch your opponent off guard. Next time they will be ready for it and it won't do so hot.

How do people find Space Marines' performance after 2018 chapter approved?

Before the advent of 2018 chapter approved, I used to run two Iron Hands battalion detachments and Dawneagle Shield-Captain Supreme Command detachment.
To some degree, the addition of Custodes allies helped me supplement weaknesses of pure Space Marine detachments.
High Mobility, decent anti-horde firepower, respectable durability and close combat power filled many gaps in my Iron Hands list.

After chapter approved 2018 was released, I am running pure Iron Hands lists just to see by myself how much Space Marines were improved as mono-codex.
Or mono-chapter to be precise.

Price drops were clearly helpful for list building, as I could add another unit to my list.
For example, compared to the lists I used before 2018 chapter approved, I was able to add a twin-las razorback or a unit of company veterans with storm shields and plasma guns.

Despite being able to take slightly more units to the board, I still struggle against my fellow players who also prefer mono-faction lists.
Most of the time, they bring tyranids, death guard, thousand sons, craftworlds or harlequins.
The only time I was able to win was when dice were in my favour or when my opponents made huge mistakes.

True, the new chapter approved has improved Space Marine units by dropping points cost.
But I would like to say it is an improvement from F grade to D grade at best.
And such improvement is still lacking even when facing against lists with, say, B grade(non-soup, mono-death guard/craftworlds/tyranids).

I did not expect chapter approved to improve space marines to the level where they can stand a decent chance against competitive soup lists.
But struggling so much against relatively tame mono-faction lists makes me think whether or not I should keep playing space marines.

Perhaps playing Ultramarines list with Guilliman might improve my win rate.
But then again, there are already plenty of mates utilising Guilliman around me.
And I find homogenisation of lists monotonous and unhealthy for gaming environment.
Furthermore, even the said Ultramarines lists are struggling against aforementioned non-Space Marine mono-faction lists.
For example an Aeldari player, an acquaintance of mine, had no problem defeating Guilliman list with Ulthwe list or harlequins list.

I will still play more games to assess the impact of chapter approved on space marines.
However I am afraid my initial impression might stay unchanged.

With missile launchers going down to 20 pts would they be an auto take if you know you're not going to fight knights as opposed to lascannons

Missles are fine vs IKs. The AP on the lascannon is wasted. You are only wounding on one better.

Martel732 wrote:
Missles are fine vs IKs. The AP on the lascannon is wasted. You are only wounding on one better.

For only 5 points more though, that extra wound goes a long way. The ML still serves no purpose.

It gives me access to flakk missile strat and frag missiles. For 5 pts less. In a game full of invulns, I'm not feeling a 25 pt lascannon.

Martel732 wrote:
It gives me access to flakk missile strat and frag missiles. For 5 pts less. In a game full of invulns, I'm not feeling a 25 pt lascannon.

Frag sucks and you know that, and Flakk is hardly worth the worse profile in the first place.

I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.

Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.

Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?

You trying to tell people a lascannon is better against hordes now?

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.

Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?

You trying to tell people a lascannon is better against hordes now?

Mathematically the damage is that insignificant because of how poor the Frag Missile round is. You'd actually want something dedicated, and a TAC weapon doesn't cut it.

First i am going to say i will be using dirty math hammer in my post. Its used to get my point across on las vs missile.

Slayer-Fan123 is right. A lascannon vs a Missile Launcher in almost all situations when only comparing those 2 weapons as the only options las wins. And dont get me wrong, i like my missile launchers, but here me out.

Vs horde a las cannon and a krak missile will do the same dmg.

4 shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds with ap-2/ap-3 which will cut through any horde armies armor = 3 dead guys. Horrible waste of firepower but it is what it is.

Now do 4 frag missiles. Thats on average 14 shots. Out of those 14, 10 will probably hit. Out of those 10, 5 will probably wound, but suddenly those horde guys get their saves so thats probably 1 save or 4 dead guys. 3 is less than 4, but vs a squad of 20 it doesn't matter as much.

Granted frag can be really swingy thanks to d6 shots. Roll hot and get 20 shots or cold and get 6.

Now lets look at the other side of this equation. Vehicles. Most have an armor of 3+, with some at the extreme 2+ and others at the weaker side of 4+. Toughness also is important since these heavy super units normally have t7 or t8.

Vs 3+ a las cannon has a 16% chance to be saved where the missile launcher is at 33%. Thats not insignificant. Vs 2+ thats a 33% for las and 50% for missile, again pretty important. Vs 4+ that las goes right though. So las helps more vs armor saves with no invulnerable.

In fact the only times the missile will only perform the same as a las cannon if the target has t7, and at least a 2+/4++ or 3+/5++. Of the unit has a better invulnerable than that and is t7 like say t7, 3+/4++ then the missile launcher is the better weapon. If its t8 then it does not matter, las is better. If its got no invulnerable las is better.

Of course there is the missile strat for flakk missile, it does come in handy when you remember it.

But by and large the las is still the superior weapon 9 times out of 10.

HOWEVER if you play a lot of lower toughness enemies in the game like crisis suits or raiders or starweavers then i can see the missiles launcher being the go to option. Its meta dependent on what the best option is. Myself i run a trip missile and heavy bolter team just for mortal wound threats and low points cost to performance as I am sure a lot of others do. Cant argue with 3d3 mortal wounds on a flying hive tyrant now can we?

My personal choice is missile as well because its cheaper. My meta has a lot of smaller knights and dreadnaughts running around in it as well as a tau and de player. They work for me. But i cant say the las isnt a better option normally. Dropping the missile down to 20 pts does help make it feel like a real choice now at least, at 25 it wasnt.