Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
How do people find Space Marines' performance after 2018 chapter approved?

I did not expect chapter approved to improve space marines to the level where they can stand a decent chance against competitive soup lists.
But struggling so much against relatively tame mono-faction lists makes me think whether or not I should keep playing space marines.

Perhaps playing Ultramarines list with Guilliman might improve my win rate.
But then again, there are already plenty of mates utilising Guilliman around me.
And I find homogenisation of lists monotonous and unhealthy for gaming environment.
Furthermore, even the said Ultramarines lists are struggling against aforementioned non-Space Marine mono-faction lists.
For example an Aeldari player, an acquaintance of mine, had no problem defeating Guilliman list with Ulthwe list or harlequins list.

I will still play more games to assess the impact of chapter approved on space marines.
However I am afraid my initial impression might stay unchanged.

I ran Salamanders + a knight pre CA, and I run Salamanders + a knight post CA (I could drop the knight for 3 preds with ACs, much less survivable but much more damage). It hurt that tacs and rhinos didn't get an explicit boost but marines were, and still are workable. The first thing that people need to get out of their head is to stop running static gunlines. This edition is all about board control, having your forces sit in the back field while the enemy can just pick the flow of the . Have some mobile forces that can exert pressure. If your using marine bodies, get stuck in. Marines work best as a skirmish force, get close. Rapid fire bolters, use grenades, and muck up the enemy forces. The reason Guilleman seems lack luster is that everyone is prepped to fight Guilleman blobs and you can't move well enough.

I feel like a lot of marine players just try to take pound for pound shooting fights against other gunline armies, which they are going to lose. Or they just stand still and fire against horde armies and take a charge, which they will lose. Be proactive and make your opponent play your game. Marines are actually versatile and we pay for that versatility, so use it.

I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.

Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.

Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.

I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.

Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.

I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).

Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines

stratigo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.

Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.

I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).

Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines

I play Crimson Fists. So their Chapter Tactics don't synergize with Sniper Scouts unless I drop 1CP for Slay the Tyrant, but that only makes for more hits, not wounds.

I may look into what Slayer-Fan123 said and run a Vanguard of three Eversor Assassins somehow.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.

If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.

Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.

I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).

Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines

I play Crimson Fists. So their Chapter Tactics don't synergize with Sniper Scouts unless I drop 1CP for Slay the Tyrant, but that only makes for more hits, not wounds.

I may look into what Slayer-Fan123 said and run a Vanguard of three Eversor Assassins somehow.

I mean Sniper Scouts are a lot cheaper now, and the additional hits for Slay The Tyrant are kinda neat, but keep in mind that's a CP you're using. 10 Sniper Scouts would basically need first turn, and honestly it isn't a lot of damage anyway. Assuming a Lieutenant, that's maybe 2 Mortal Wounds with other damage. Might kill a Commander or Autarch but they gotta be in range.

I would be running five scouts, and they wouldn't even be filling a mandatory Troops slot, so I can't see them being worth it at all.

I currently run a Deathwatch codex marine army and am building up my crimson fists Primaris force not sure if it's worth taking inceptors?? Currently take the odd I've in my kill teams for Deathwatch to allow them to fall back and fire but not thought about a whole unit.
Seems like they fill a gap in an all Primaris list for mobility as aggressive mobile troops aren't really there in a Primaris list.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I currently run a Deathwatch codex marine army and am building up my crimson fists Primaris force not sure if it's worth taking inceptors?? Currently take the odd I've in my kill teams for Deathwatch to allow them to fall back and fire but not thought about a whole unit.
Seems like they fill a gap in an all Primaris list for mobility as aggressive mobile troops aren't really there in a Primaris list.

In a primaris deathwatch squad they give a good push giving you the fall back and shoot, not bad also if they do not have SIA profile.

In normal SM army's they give you a good strike Dakka unit. They are the only Primaris unit I always use. But I am not speaking from a Tournament experience, only my local experience and what I saw on reports.

Inceptors rock for Crimson Fists. The dakka ones will almost always benefit from the new chapter tactic against their preferred targets, which gives you some good options like essentially being able to advance without penalty if you need the extra mobility.

I've found that even though the plasma inceptors are expensive, people have just stopped expecting anything similar to them. I've been catching people off guard with the drop-in firepower lately.

Plasma Inceptors with the Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics only need to be shooting into a unit of six to ignore any risks for over charging. I am not really sure what units would be worth doing that on, but blast away!

Ok, so, "rumour" time...!

https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

Now thats sexy if true. Terms getting 4 shots no matter what at 24" is sweet.

Sternguard like that, too.

Now it says "Double the number of attacks"

Would a stormbolter in RF range be...8 shots?
Big if true

 iGuy91 wrote:
Now it says "Double the number of attacks"

Would a stormbolter in RF range be...8 shots?
Big if true

No, its just adding in extra ways to get the Rapid Fire double shots.

 Orodhen wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Now it says "Double the number of attacks"

Would a stormbolter in RF range be...8 shots?
Big if true

No, its just adding in extra ways to get the Rapid Fire double shots.

correct.

so
Scout bikes can harrass from longer range,
SM Bikes might be more useful
tac marines can sit on objectives as well as scouts
Termies can just storm up field and lay down all the dakka, or deepstrike in and shoot anything in range - a lot!
Primaris can use a stratagem to get 4 shot bolt rifles

10 man Interecessor squad with the Vigilius detachment can sit on a building and pump out 40 s4 -1 shots right? ^^

 lash92 wrote:
10 man Interecessor squad with the Vigilius detachment can sit on a building and pump out 40 s4 -1 shots right? ^^

at 30" range ... from cover ... with rerolls from characters ...

BRB painting 10 primaris

That might be a nice trick, but very CP hungry.

Wow.

Centurions with hurricane and heavy bolters have have 30 shots each at half range.

Drop pod sternguard 40 shots on arrival, thats nasty with the strat.

 Nevelon wrote:
That might be a nice trick, but very CP hungry.

Depends on the rest of your list, but, I agree that you’d probably only ever “buff up” one unit, maybe 2 max. Making 2 squads Veterans and using the strat every turn, will cost you 8CP over 5 turns. Considering you’re likely to have at least 13CP with most “Marine” lists, maybe 14, you could still reliably do this… If the Intercessors aren’t wiped out first turn once your opponent sees what they can do


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oaktreegamer wrote:
Wow.

Centurions with hurricane and heavy bolters have have 30 shots each at half range.

Drop pod sternguard 40 shots on arrival, thats nasty with the strat.

Sternguard with storm bolters will get 40 shots if targeting an enemy within 12” yes, but, it won’t double up for units outside of the 12” due to them having “moved”.
Centurions will only get 18 shots each, max. 12 from the Hurricane Bolters and 6 from the Heavy Bolters. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.

Kdash wrote:
. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.

there is going to be a LOT of explaining this in the near future

Kdash wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
That might be a nice trick, but very CP hungry.

Depends on the rest of your list, but, I agree that you’d probably only ever “buff up” one unit, maybe 2 max. Making 2 squads Veterans and using the strat every turn, will cost you 8CP over 5 turns. Considering you’re likely to have at least 13CP with most “Marine” lists, maybe 14, you could still reliably do this… If the Intercessors aren’t wiped out first turn once your opponent sees what they can do


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oaktreegamer wrote:
Wow.

Centurions with hurricane and heavy bolters have have 30 shots each at half range.

Drop pod sternguard 40 shots on arrival, thats nasty with the strat.

Sternguard with storm bolters will get 40 shots if targeting an enemy within 12” yes, but, it won’t double up for units outside of the 12” due to them having “moved”.


Centurions will only get 18 shots each, max. 12 from the Hurricane Bolters and 6 from the Heavy Bolters. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.

Ah yes, i see now. Just a way to get your double shots under different circumstances.

 Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

Kdash wrote:
. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.

there is going to be a LOT of explaining this in the near future

Yes, but all you have to say if that Bolter Discipline REPLACES the normal RF rules, not adds to them. It'll be annoying to have to potentially correct a lot of people, but at least it should be a simple correction.
The rules says "Instead of using the normal rules for RF weapons...."

-

This is still an awsome change that makes space marines better as a whole. I am thinking of my land raider crusader. 266 pts gets you 28 bolter shots at 24" +12" move for a 36" chaff clearing bubble. Thats awsome. Or 200 pts for 5 wolf guard with storm bolters and storm shields on bikes for 38" threat of 40 bolter shots. Or the terms that have been pointed out, just walking up the field unloading on people.

Who is laughing at the bolter now?

Hurricane bolters on ironclads also look a lot more attractive. I don't like how it encourages marine players to be more static, but it does look kind of tasty beyond that.

Vilehydra wrote:
Hurricane bolters on ironclads also look a lot more attractive. I don't like how it encourages marine players to be more static, but it does look kind of tasty beyond that.

It doesn't exactly make them more static. Rather it compensates you somewhat if you are using units like Tactical squads as Objective campers. It also gives the bolter marines in Devastor squads a bit more to do while they wait to act as meat-shields for their heavy weapon brethren.

Bikers and Terminators are now more useful as they can act while moving at longer ranges. They can pump out maximum firepower without having to get within charge range of the enemy.