Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

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**IanVanCheese**

It's a minor thing, but Storm Bolters now beat Fragstorm Launchers hands down right?

**Lemondish**

IanVanCheese wrote:
It's a minor thing, but Storm Bolters now beat Fragstorm Launchers hands down right?

Absolutely. They'll always fire 4 shots up to 24" on every platform that needs to make that decision, which is higher than the average D6 from the shorter range fragstorm. And they're half the cost (for now).

**grouchoben**

IMO they were always better, point-for-point, than fragstorm.

**iGuy91**

I need a hand figuring out the best way to utilize 20 Sternguard. They're the best models in my army, and I'd love them to be useful again with the new BetaBolters. Any ideas? Drop pods worth it with the points drops? Or are Rhinos a better investment? Spread them out across 4 razorbacks?

**Orodhen**

iGuy91 wrote:
I need a hand figuring out the best way to utilize 20 Sternguard. They're the best models in my army, and I'd love them to be useful again with the new BetaBolters. Any ideas? Drop pods worth it with the points drops? Or are Rhinos a better investment? Spread them out across 4 razorbacks?

I've had some good success dropping Sternguard's with Combi-Meltas near enemy lines from a Stormraven or Land Raider, accompanied by a Company Ancient with the relic banner and Vulkan Hestan.

Now that they can double-tap at range, giving them their Special Issue Bolter and camping an objective could also work. I'd rather keep them at range, where they can utilize their 30" SIB and special Stratagem.

**Azuza001**

I had luck with sternguard in drop pods. Last time i used them i dropped them in an open hole in my opponents back line, 20 of them, with a lieutenant w/ jump pack. Between weight of fire and the stratagem i killed a rune priest dead (had to go, that -1 to hit on redemptors in cover was a serious threat) and almost leveled logan (he went down to 2 wounds left, ended up running away and hiding from me until the threat was delt with... very space wolf like....) its one of my favorite tactics to use with them.

**grouchoben**

If you're game for running IFs, siegebreaker detachment would give your sternguard a) constant cover b) ignore -1ap weapon mods, so 2+ against assault cannons, heavy bolters and autocannons c) reroll 1s to wound from relic d) morale immunity, so you're free to run them in 2x10s and e) ignore cover, so your -2ap really does work. That's the way I'd go. They'd also become pretty nasty vehicle killers, combining the strenguard strat and the siegebreaker strat to put out 6 mortal wounds against a knight.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Siegebreaker cohort of centurions with bolter loadout could put some hurt downrange. 18 bolter shots (6 of which are HBs) per guy at 24 inches (with a mean 4 inch waddle) could be a serious threat to knights as well. Still though those centurions are expensive boys, but have good synergy with apothecaries and banner ancients.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I haven't done the math, but Devastator Centurions might actually be okay for the cost now assuming the beta rule stays, as they always have 12 shots no matter what from the Hurricane. Still not durable though.

That makes me lean towards the Assault variant still to be honest. If I want more Heavy Bolters, I still have the lovely Tarantula Guns to do that.

**grouchoben**

I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.

**casvalremdeikun**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I haven't done the math, but Devastator Centurions might actually be okay for the cost now assuming the beta rule stays, as they always have 12 shots no matter what from the Hurricane. Still not durable though.

That makes me lean towards the Assault variant still to be honest. If I want more Heavy Bolters, I still have the lovely Tarantula Guns to do that.

Yeah, the Assault Variants are actually looking pretty enticing. The Centurion Assault Launchers are definitely getting left at home though. The Devastor Centurions are actually CHEAPER now, which kind of helps. So unless you are charging with them (on what, turn three?), the Devastators might be the better option.

**Tibs Ironblood**

grouchoben wrote:
I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.

The siegebreaker cohort stratagem only works on siegebreaker cohort units which the sternguard are not. Are you talking about another strat that I am missing?

**Eihnlazer**

4 assault cents with pedro and a loo buffing them coming out of a crusader is a pretty solid mid board atm.

**grouchoben**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.

The siegebreaker cohort stratagem only works on siegebreaker cohort units which the sternguard are not. Are you talking about another strat that I am missing?

My mistake, thanks Tibs. Thought that was too good to be true.

**Latro_**

neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.

Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.

With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost

40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds

However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters

Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.

Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun

**Lemondish**

Latro_ wrote:
neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.

Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.

With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost

40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds

However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters

Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.

Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun

Unless you want max 10 marine sized units, I think company vets are better for rocking storm bolters. Can also take storm shields or a melee weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
IMO they were always better, point-for-point, than fragstorm.

That's true, but every list can survive small points of inefficiency for rule of cool or personal preference.

The inefficiency just became much bigger now.

**Azuza001**

If you were going to go with a dreadnought heavy list what faction would you take? I currently own 3 regular dreads, 3 venerable dreads, and 2 ironclad dreadnoughts.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lemondish wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.

Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.

With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost

40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds

However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters

Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.

Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun

Unless you want max 10 marine sized units, I think company vets are better for rocking storm bolters. Can also take storm shields or a melee weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
IMO they were always better, point-for-point, than fragstorm.

That's true, but every list can survive small points of inefficiency for rule of cool or personal preference.

The inefficiency just became much bigger now.

I dunno, for Rule Of Cool, six Bolters at once seems a lot cooler than Fragstorm Launchers in the first place.

With that said I'm sure there's a niche somewhere. Either that, or 12 shots all the time is better than a mortal wound against a Knight too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
If you were going to go with a dreadnought heavy list what faction would you take? I currently own 3 regular dreads, 3 venerable dreads, and 2 ironclad dreadnoughts.

Raven Guard as all purpose, or Ultramarines if you're shooting. I might even lean towards Ultramarines because getting stuck in by just a couple of Gaunts can be a realistic scenario.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Templars if just pure melee, of course. The Wulfen Dread that Space Wolves would likely be a better choice though.

**Azuza001**

Yeah i was thinking ravenguard too. I dont want to do spacewolves because they dont get access to ironclad dreads which i really like. Salamanders seemed like an option for all those rerolls though.

**Rogerio134134**

I normally run my marines as Deathwatch but tempted to try the indomitus crusaders detachment with my crimson fists. Already going to order a sterguard box and use the bits to make veteran intercessors/counts as stern guard.

**TankCmdr**

Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some old Dev centurions gathering dust that I'd love to breathe new life into with the Siegebreaker Cohort.

I'm thinking either a patrol or vanguard to take as allies:
Primaris Capt. W/eye of Hypnoth and the SBC trait
Apothecary
Ancient
6 Bolter Dev Cents

But now the question is how to round out the detachment? A troop for a cheap(er) patrol, another elite for a vanguard (dread?), or go big and do a spearhead with Leviathan dread and devastators? What would an optimal Siegebreaker cohort tend towards, not as a complete army, but as a midfield, hard-hitting anchor?

**Slayer-Fan123**

You probably want at minimum a Vanguard to get an extra CP.

**TankCmdr**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You probably want at minimum a Vanguard to get an extra CP.

That's preferable, I agree, thank you! Vanguard or spearhead, but considering there's already 2 elites, vanguard is cheaper. I have a Ven Dread, would a relic contemptor or Deredeo be better/worth the additional points and $?

**footfoe**

Can we talk about alternative captain load outs?

I know "Smash Captains" are still the hot thing to do... but all the other options got way cheaper. A captain on bike is now cheaper than a jump pack captain. Cataphractii captains are 42 points cheaper than they were, obviously they're slow but 6 wounds under a natural 2+ 3++ is pretty nice. Personally i was thinking of having a Captain on bike with combi-melta and powerfist with the Sanctic halo relic.

How do you typically soup in captains from other chapters? In a patrol detachment?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Deredeos are like a worse but cheaper Leviathan. It isn't bad, but sometimes you just want to go all in.

**TankCmdr**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deredeos are like a worse but cheaper Leviathan. It isn't bad, but sometimes you just want to go all in.

Fair enough. So Ven Dread, and if I'm feeling mean, a Leviathan too. I dig it.

**bort**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deredeos are like a worse but cheaper Leviathan. It isn't bad, but sometimes you just want to go all in.

Considering that the Deredeo got a 15pt cut and has a str8 autocannon instead of str7, I’m thinking they’re now one of the best shooty dread options if the relic slot is no issue. I still like the Leviathan too, but I liked the idea of it a lot more when hordes were in and not when everyone expects a Knight.

**Vilehydra**

footfoe wrote:
Can we talk about alternative captain load outs?

I know "Smash Captains" are still the hot thing to do... but all the other options got way cheaper. A captain on bike is now cheaper than a jump pack captain. Cataphractii captains are 42 points cheaper than they were, obviously they're slow but 6 wounds under a natural 2+ 3++ is pretty nice. Personally i was thinking of having a Captain on bike with combi-melta and powerfist with the Sanctic halo relic.

How do you typically soup in captains from other chapters? In a patrol detachment?

Been running one with Standard Terminator armor with a TH and the Shield Eternal or Salamanders Mantle. Halving damage on a 2+/3++ model with 6 wounds is incredibly durable, as in he survived a full salvo from a porphyrion. Give him the imperiums sword warlord trait for an increased chance at making that first charge and an additional attack.

It's important to note that this captain requires the enemy to be pressured, otherwise they can just walk away from him if he fails his charge. For more fun, get a librarian nearby with might of heroes. 6 str 10 thunderhammer attacks on the charge that can be doubled for 3 CP.

**bort**

I thought I'd try making a 2000pt vanilla list again with the CA changes, here's what I'm currently thinking:

Spoiler:

**Flood**

Go Ultramarines so your dreads can fall back and still shoot, otherwise they get locked down pretty easily.