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footfoe wrote:

bort wrote:
Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.

I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.

I have a little under 500 points inside of my ancient bubble (2 dev squads, and 5 hellblasters) sometimes more when my intercessors are nearby. I feel like it gives me huge returns. Even just firing the normal bolters from the extra guys in the dev squad feels good. Do not forget, the relic banner also makes you fearless which can save you some models as well.

Wow. Somehow I'd missed that the banner makes you fearless. That's a huge deal for me. 10-man Primaris squads are quite risky otherwise. I'm thinking of running hellblasters in 10-man squads to take advantage of the Crimson Fist liberators detachment but was worried about them running away. This could actually work.

Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.

Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.

If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though

The relic banner makes you fearless, but the basic banner is +1 Ld. That might make a difference too with more Ld check powers in the game.

bort wrote:
The relic banner makes you fearless, but the basic banner is +1 Ld. That might make a difference too with more Ld check powers in the game.

I think the relic does that too. It gives +1 to your rolls to fire when killed, frightens enemies and makes you fearless, but it doesn't remove the original +1 LD effect.

If it's a replacement for the original banner then it wouldn't wouldn't work, because there'd be no roll to add +1 to unless another ancient was there. I think...

Oh, good to know it’s played that way. The wording was really vague on it. Other items are a replacement, but yeah the relic banner refers to needing the base banner effect...

Mandragola wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.

Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.

If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though

You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.

A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

bort wrote:
The relic banner makes you fearless, but the basic banner is +1 Ld. That might make a difference too with more Ld check powers in the game.

I think the relic does that too. It gives +1 to your rolls to fire when killed, frightens enemies and makes you fearless, but it doesn't remove the original +1 LD effect.

If it's a replacement for the original banner then it wouldn't wouldn't work, because there'd be no roll to add +1 to unless another ancient was there. I think...

Yes it's kind of insane my Ultramarine Vets under the banner are leadership 11.

Sorry I'm slow today but what's the LLC for Cronus?

typo its a LRC. Mostly because it's the cheapest HQ - It also helps that the LR is always hitting on 2's. Even at 1 wound.

 Xenomancers wrote:
typo its a LRC. Mostly because it's the cheapest HQ - It also helps that the LR is always hitting on 2's. Even at 1 wound.

Not sure how much Chronos helps offset the already high cost for the Land Raider, especially when all someone has to do is touch it and suddenly your 200+ point unit can't do anything.

Unless Chronos has the same fallback and shoot ability and confers it on the tank and I missed it.

he doesn't, but its true not many things are gonna do a lot of damage to a LR in close combat, and its very hard to wrap it up since its large.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
he doesn't, but its true not many things are gonna do a lot of damage to a LR in close combat, and its very hard to wrap it up since its large.

Say it is assaulted by 20 termagants, the gants failed to scratch the tank, the tank striked back killed 1, and fall back, can only move 10" But cannot do anything else. Now the tank, due to Its huge size and the broad coverage of the horde gants, maybe only 2" away from the gants, If the SM do not have other means to destroy this brood (which would usually be the case since their horde killing power would be needed to exterminate the other more dangerous thing like Genestealers hordes), they will charge again so the tank is tied up for another turn. Repeat and rinse.

So, once a Space Marine tank is charged. I count ot as being silenced for the rest of the WHOLE GAME.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
typo its a LRC. Mostly because it's the cheapest HQ - It also helps that the LR is always hitting on 2's. Even at 1 wound.

Not sure how much Chronos helps offset the already high cost for the Land Raider, especially when all someone has to do is touch it and suddenly your 200+ point unit can't do anything.

Unless Chronos has the same fallback and shoot ability and confers it on the tank and I missed it.

Unfortunately he doesn't give the tank the ability to fallback and shoot - he does make it always BS 2+. So all 16 wounds must be dealt with and he gives it a few wound every turn too. Like I said - I mainly take him in that list because he is the cheapest HQ and Cents basically require the land raider to be played. Tiggy helps the LR live through turn 1 with -1 to hit and +1 T. The cents get an addition 3" of movement when they disembark. So they go up to 31" threat range with ignore cover hurricane bolters. The damage that unit puts out buffed by Gman is pretty astounding.

Also - it's pretty silly that Space Marine chapter tactics do not apply to their vehicles. I really expect that sooner than later.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
he doesn't, but its true not many things are gonna do a lot of damage to a LR in close combat, and its very hard to wrap it up since its large.

Say it is assaulted by 20 termagants, the gants failed to scratch the tank, the tank striked back killed 1, and fall back, can only move 10" But cannot do anything else. Now the tank, due to Its huge size and the broad coverage of the horde gants, maybe only 2" away from the gants, If the SM do not have other means to destroy this brood (which would usually be the case since their horde killing power would be needed to exterminate the other more dangerous thing like Genestealers hordes), they will charge again so the tank is tied up for another turn. Repeat and rinse.

So, once a Space Marine tank is charged. I count ot as being silenced for the rest of the WHOLE GAME.

In theory yes BUT 20 gaunts is easy as heck to silence. It is well within reason that a single intercessor unit buffed by gman can kill it solo to the man. The first game I played it an ork palyed used da jump and tagged it from behind - the orks got waxed by gman+ intercessors (+ auspex scan) and since I couldn't shoot with the LR anyways I moved it up to block the path of another 30 man ork unit. Yeah they can charge the LR now BUT they have to take gman buffed overwatch which averages like 8 dead orks and those boys can get through the massive LR nor can they really hurt it.

Keep in mind I am just trying to do the best with what I got in order to bring HB cents. I suppose I could just bring another units of cents for the cost of the LR but then I'd be too 1 dimensional I think. Plus I don't have that many cents lol.

That said, the issue of a 300 point unit not being able to shoot potentially is super risky don't you think? That's the main reason Land Raiders aren't being ran. Durability is eh, shooting total is okay-ish, might make it to deliver the goods.

However all you need is a single model to have made the charge and now it's out of action for a turn. The Centurions would have the added benefit of getting the Ultramarine bonus. If you have two squads though you have to run an Apothecary, no excuses.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.

Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.

If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though

You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.

A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.

That army has no anti tank, so unfortunately gets eaten alive by knights and IG... and to be honest a lot of armies. It tables hordes pretty quickly though! Overall a more balanced approach is likely to work better. Stick Chronos in a Predator with a couple more of them and proc killshot. With the amount of troops you have you ought to be able to screen the predators. Or just do something completely different.

I don’t agree that the attack for veteran intercessors is useful “more often than not”. I didn’t find my intercessors in combat with things where that attack made any difference all that often. Quite a lot of the time they’re functioning as a screen, and some of the rest of the time they’re fighting things like IG where they don’t need the attack.

However, I do think it’s good to be able to become a veteran intercessor Detachment if playing against hordes. You’d kill quite a lot of orks, for example. So if you’re going to an event where you can decide to do it or not before each game, it’s a decent option to have. But I don’t think it’s something I’d put on my army list.

As a crimson fist player I now think I’d be more likely to go for a liberators detachment. That only costs one CP to set up because you don’t have to pay anything for each squad. Firing at people with a 10-man hellblaster squad (or whoever’s alive after the enemy shoots) could make a real impact.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That said, the issue of a 300 point unit not being able to shoot potentially is super risky don't you think? That's the main reason Land Raiders aren't being ran. Durability is eh, shooting total is okay-ish, might make it to deliver the goods.

However all you need is a single model to have made the charge and now it's out of action for a turn. The Centurions would have the added benefit of getting the Ultramarine bonus. If you have two squads though you have to run an Apothecary, no excuses.

Sometimes I do the apoth. Mathwise though I think another Cent makes more sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.

Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.

If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though

You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.

A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.

That army has no anti tank, so unfortunately gets eaten alive by knights and IG... and to be honest a lot of armies. It tables hordes pretty quickly though! Overall a more balanced approach is likely to work better. Stick Chronos in a Predator with a couple more of them and proc killshot. With the amount of troops you have you ought to be able to screen the predators. Or just do something completely different.

I don’t agree that the attack for veteran intercessors is useful “more often than not”. I didn’t find my intercessors in combat with things where that attack made any difference all that often. Quite a lot of the time they’re functioning as a screen, and some of the rest of the time they’re fighting things like IG where they don’t need the attack.

However, I do think it’s good to be able to become a veteran intercessor Detachment if playing against hordes. You’d kill quite a lot of orks, for example. So if you’re going to an event where you can decide to do it or not before each game, it’s a decent option to have. But I don’t think it’s something I’d put on my army list.

As a crimson fist player I now think I’d be more likely to go for a liberators detachment. That only costs one CP to set up because you don’t have to pay anything for each squad. Firing at people with a 10-man hellblaster squad (or whoever’s alive after the enemy shoots) could make a real impact.

Yeah - That is true. Lighter tanks can be dealt with just fine though.

This weekend I did a similar list and played against a powerful GSC army.

I ran 39 vet intercessors
10 man infiltrator squad (Combat squaded)
5 man infiltrator squad
Tiggy
a Phobos libby
Primaris ancient
Relic Levi with 2x storm cannons
Gman

In all honesty - this is the most powerful army I've played with marines. It was for ETC practice though so it is intended this list faces an anti horde army. Infiltrators are a little expensive but overall their ability to stop your army from being charged by silly things is worth their weight in gold.

Interesting point. In an ETC format you can build an excellent anti-horde army with marines. It's not necessarily a good TAC list, but definitely one that does its job well.

FWIW in that format I'd leave out 85 points for an assassin - probably a Vindicare or Callidus - to remove support characters. Or just get some eliminators.

Vindicare has been doing me really well in games I've been using him - could easily drop 5 infiltrators for an assassin.

I have a chance to make some last minute alteration to my list to counter a Ynnari player. What are some space marine units that counter their go to's?

Went 2nd place in a tourney last Saturday with the following:

Primarus Librarian w/ Phobos w/ Tomb of Malacor
Primarus Lieutenant w/ Power Sword
10xVet Intercessors
5xInfiltrators
5xInfiltrators
1xPrimarus ancient w/ Big Banner
3xSuppressors
3xSuppressors
5xHellblasters
5xHellblasters
3xEliminators

Guiliman

Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor
85 point side board

The 2 games I won were due to me putting up nullzone on the librarian and corridoring it next to a knight. Blew up the knight each time turn 1. That tactic was total magic. Suppressors and eliminators were very lackluster and I would totally replace every squad with a pred or repulsor next time. Infiltrators were awesome in that they had 2 roles depending on the matchup. Either to forward deploy onto objectives or protect the castle from deepstrike. Their mere presence caused the spacewolf player to not infiltrate his wolfen and caused a daemon player to put less stuff in deep strike than usual.

That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...

That does seem strong. It actually makes me consider running a conclave. With two disciplines to choose from you can potentially throw quite a lot of mortal wounds around, so gets necer not be busy.

For extra mortal wounds, it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove 1 Assassin for a Devatsator squad w/ a Cherub and Heavy Bolter. Assassins would give more though.

Azuza001 wrote:
That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...

I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.

Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?

That's about the same as us requesting they gain AP-1 or something with their blades.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?

Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.

Ice_can wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...

I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.

I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.

I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.

You can cast nullzone first and see if it goes off.

That part is better than just using a jump pack to put the librarian up in range. But you’ve presumably also dropped in all the hellblasters into rapid fire range before finding out if the null zone goes off or not.

bort wrote:
That part is better than just using a jump pack to put the librarian up in range. But you’ve presumably also dropped in all the hellblasters into rapid fire range before finding out if the null zone goes off or not.

They would have to be in LoS, but just the 10 with 6 supressors with guiliman rerolls finished off the knight out of rapid fire range each time.