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bort wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.

Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?

Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.

Ah, okay. I was wondering about their wording. First it says to go ahead and use it again if you want, then it said subject to regular restrictions, but regular restrictions don't allow reuse. I forgot nonmatched does allow repeated.

Yeah I had to think about the answer for a bit before it made sense to me.

bort wrote:
Part of me is glad, cause I hated those cherub models and that double shot was the primary reason I kept feeling obligated to keep Devs in my list. But then, on the other hand, I also own a ton of heavy weapon models from prior editions and this is yet another nail in their coffin.

I think the Cherub is still a great buy (I also hate the model, and I double-hate that it counts as a model for purposes of Transport and Combat Squads). As for Heavy Weapons in general, I still pack my army full of 'em, generally. And now a Knight will have 75% the durability, and Disintegrators 75% the potential wounding, so some of the longer range engagements get a bit easier with that.

I'm also rather surprised they changed it. An extra d3 mortals for 5 points sounds great, but it's also in a subpar army and only usable once per game. If this was their first FAQ on it, I could see it, but given they'd already ruled it the reverse, the change seems weird. Oh well.


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Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...

bort wrote:
I'm also rather surprised they changed it. An extra d3 mortals for 5 points sounds great, but it's also in a subpar army and only usable once per game. If this was their first FAQ on it, I could see it, but given they'd already ruled it the reverse, the change seems weird. Oh well.

It was nice to have but it sure felt sloppy. When people are taking Devastators without any plan other than a single heavy weapon firing twice once a game with a stratagem, I think there's a false positive in terms of balancing. Maybe better to clean it up and then see where things settle before adjusting further.


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bort wrote:
Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...

Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.

That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:
Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...

Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.

That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong power, but I thought that Krast thing gave +1 damage vs 10+W targets and another +1 vs Titanic? So at least it's not getting a free bonus firing at nonFW dreads.

^Oh, I thought you were referencing something totally different. I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to, sorry.

bort wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:
Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...

Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.

That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong power, but I thought that Krast thing gave +1 damage vs 10+W targets and another +1 vs Titanic? So at least it's not getting a free bonus firing at nonFW dreads.

Your refering to headsmans mark and really it's not even a thing vrs dreadnaughts, heck even mildly above avarage rolls should see a thermal cannon wipe a dreadnaught per turn.
Non FW dreadnaughts are still rather meh

^Possibly meh, but the popular FW ones seem too much like easily killed keystone units, while standard Dreds can act as less obvious support units. They wind up lasting longer because they're less obvious targets, and you can tuck them away a bit easier.

Just wondering what ultramarine players are doing for warlord traits. As named charictors are stuck with a now dysfunctional mandatory trait?

Well Gman and Calgar both generate bonus CP when they are your warlord so...I don't even consider other warlord traits. The new +1 to hit warlord trait seems next best to me. Also I wouldn't call it dysfunctional. It really should generate 2-3 CP per game. So when combined with the bonus CP. I find Ultramarines generate about 50% more CP compared to other marine brothers.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Possibly meh, but the popular FW ones seem too much like easily killed keystone units, while standard Dreds can act as less obvious support units. They wind up lasting longer because they're less obvious targets, and you can tuck them away a bit easier.

Really Dreads of all kinds are nice.

Vendreads with ML and las are at a great price point. When you add 20 points to them to get another LC they start to get too glassy.

I’m always sad with the ML though. Why couldn’t it be a twinML? It feels kinda like wasting a weapon slot on a chassis you already paid for, but you’re right, you add anything more expensive (not that there is many options) and it feels like a point sink.

Gman feels a lot of points, still feels like your stuck leaning into the unltimate castle to make a Gman build.
Calgar has some play but when most of your firepower hits on 2+ all he brings is being a beat stick with no mobility.

Yeah the 1CP per battle round and no pregame makes the regenerate CP trait rather trash. Not to mention marine strategums just meh.

I'm trying to see if anyone else has had luck with something else.

bort wrote:
I’m always sad with the ML though. Why couldn’t it be a twinML? It feels kinda like wasting a weapon slot on a chassis you already paid for, but you’re right, you add anything more expensive (not that there is many options) and it feels like a point sink.

I think technically the autocannon is better. However - I'm taking these to kill big stuff - the autocannons don't really add to much to my threat potential because I take so many bolters.

Also in regards to gman. He really only benefits in stuff that typically wounds of 5+ or worse to be worth it. If you are talking about LC and ML. CM LT combo will work better because it will get you a lot more guns which will do higher damage.

Yeah, the autocannon is slightly better per point vs most targets. But cause I figure my dreads are the first thing shot by any AT anyways they’re also the first things I cut down to a regular ML if I need to shave points.

IMO ML should be 15 points. I was really hoping that would come in this FAQ.

Looking over the heavy options to possibly replace Devs with, I again wonder about tanks. (I know, most is just me wishing I could use all the Rhino chassis I own, but...maybe?)
They're all overpriced for their weapons and I know not taken by the top, but the Rhino box is a pretty good LOS blocker and have a decent track record as speed bump and chump charger.
But to my new thought, okay, if a Rhino is decent, wouldn't a Hunter be even better? For only 8 more points, now your mobile LOS blocker is T8 and carries a reroll to hit lascannon. Moving 10" instead of 12" is pretty much the sole downside. Not like you were ever gonna load that Rhino with Tacticals or anything either.

Just sticking with the Devs is easiest, but I feel like (in a list with other armor to take AT fire too) a Hunter or maybe Stalker could be a good brigade filler? Vs air you shoot with it. Vs other things you let it be the sacrifice.

bort wrote:
Looking over the heavy options to possibly replace Devs with, I again wonder about tanks. (I know, most is just me wishing I could use all the Rhino chassis I own, but...maybe?)
They're all overpriced for their weapons and I know not taken by the top, but the Rhino box is a pretty good LOS blocker and have a decent track record as speed bump and chump charger.
But to my new thought, okay, if a Rhino is decent, wouldn't a Hunter be even better? For only 8 more points, now your mobile LOS blocker is T8 and carries a reroll to hit lascannon. Moving 10" instead of 12" is pretty much the sole downside. Not like you were ever gonna load that Rhino with Tacticals or anything either.

Just sticking with the Devs is easiest, but I feel like (in a list with other armor to take AT fire too) a Hunter or maybe Stalker could be a good brigade filler? Vs air you shoot with it. Vs other things you let it be the sacrifice.

The Hunter and Stalker do look tempting at their new points costs, but I always fall back to the Razorback as it's nearly the same chassis but the capacity for better armament. I've been really into the Twin Las + HK missile for 116 recently.

Stalkers in particular start to look pretty good if you have to fight Eldar with any consistency. Or Tau, I guess. Both armies often wind up with a bunch of flyers that are high priority targets.

Yeah, that's the loadout I started from until I remembered that Marine AA tanks weirdly get T8 when the Predator sadly doesn't. I think you need some sort of passable gun on the chassis. Having great durability per point doesn't mean anything if your opponent doesn't make the mistake of attacking it. But too expensive ruins the idea and you might as well go with a Dread and get your chapter tactics too.

What do you guys think about mortis dreads with 4x HB?
Super cheap and has 12 shots and likely never needs to move.

Pretty good for the price I think. Way better than the comparable dev squad. Still gets chapter tactics.

Way better? It’s same shots for same price as a 4 HB Dev unit. Not a whole lot more wounds for giving up the cherub, 1 bs2 shot and the stratagem potential (and banner if you run it). If there was a venerable mortis I’d take that for sure, but the regular mortis always seemed so bleh.

I think I’m finally settling on a Thunderfire for the same cost and slot for my list. Granted it’s like half the firepower, which is super sad, but I have no source of indirect fire otherwise and it gets the tremor shells. I might have gone the Stalker for reasons mentioned in the prior post if I had one, but realizing I’d have to put a lot of effort or money into building one I figured just wasn’t worth it.

Mortis dreadnought is a boxnaught right?

Less vulnerable to small arms/plasma
More vulnerable to anti-tank

Can pop wisdom of the ancients so you don't require a captain babysitting them.

Can't hellfire/Flakk/Cherub

Also does the mortis still get bonuses against flying targets? or was that only last edition.

Honestly, it would depend on army composition. A couple dreads in a horde of PA will get smashed by any AV. Some Devs sitting in cover while everything else is mechanized will get singled out by any marine killer weapons.

No bonus vs flyers. I’ll grant it’s a lot closer with the dread point drop last ca and the cherub faq. But like you said seems more like an army comp thing than the dread being obviously superior.

I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HB dev unit.



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Anyone have any success spamming Sterngaurd with the new bolter rule? Ether as Imperial fists or ultras with gman?

Super glass cannon but that ap-2 and double taps at 30" seems nice. I've tried a 10 man and it does pretty well.

As for tanks i still love running my trip preds with autocannon/heavy bolters. If you get t1 they are nasty with the killshot strat. If you dont put them in cover for 2cp and watch your opponent get frustrated because 2+ saves are really good. (Granted works better in space wolves with the -1 to hit strat)

As for Sternguard i have had a lot of success with them in drop pods of all things. I drop them on the front lines, mid field, with the doors open to create a long wall that protects them from being charged then drop a captian in with them with jump pack, gives them rerolls and next turn he can jump over the pod wall to assault anything that is in range. Has worked rather well from the "no one brings drop pods! Lmao" then when i pull the wall i always get a "huh..... well thats annoying".

 Xenomancers wrote:
I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HB dev unit.

You don't run the full 10 men? What's the point? 10 men with 4 plasma cannons is value. Or just 4 missile launchers.

If you're running a full 10 the Dreadnought is significantly cheaper.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you're running a full 10 the Dreadnought is significantly cheaper.

Even running squads sizes of 7 make the dev squad more durable for lascannons and the like then the dreadnought. You take 3 lascannon wounds and take no real loss to firepower with the dev squad, a dreadnought taking 3 lascannon wounds is very likely dead. Now it may be slightly harder to wound the dread, but not enough to offset the efficient use of d6 damage against the dreadnought.

Yeah but the dread stands up better to flayed skull drive bys. Marines have to make real trade offs unlike other lists.

Both units are a scary thing for your rival. The Dev can be placed much more easily in cover and you have the Cherub and the Strats. Of course now we lost the Strat repeat with the Cherub but hey, you just shoot it normal.

I am using more times my 7 man Dev squad. I always see how my rival focus a lot on them, leaving others free, and many times I just loose two or three, leaving my 3 heavy weapons free for a full shooting phase plus my other Havy weapons units.

I love my Dreadnoughts, but many times a just loose them with two LC or Dark Lances. Nothing to do there.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HB dev unit.

You don't run the full 10 men? What's the point? 10 men with 4 plasma cannons is value. Or just 4 missile launchers.

Agreed that a 10 man is the way to do it. With plasma cannons is probably the best like you said. We are looking at around a 200 point squad at that point though. Could get almost 2 HB mortis for that. We were really just talking about a budget HS slot that still does something of value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alex_85 wrote:
Both units are a scary thing for your rival. The Dev can be placed much more easily in cover and you have the Cherub and the Strats. Of course now we lost the Strat repeat with the Cherub but hey, you just shoot it normal.

I am using more times my 7 man Dev squad. I always see how my rival focus a lot on them, leaving others free, and many times I just loose two or three, leaving my 3 heavy weapons free for a full shooting phase plus my other Havy weapons units.

I love my Dreadnoughts, but many times a just loose them with two LC or Dark Lances. Nothing to do there.

Well DE pretty much own marines.

They don't own... stalkers!