Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
There must surely be a space marine codex coming very soon? So many units not included in the book now and even more on the way.

All the stuff from shadow spear plus we also have the new repulsor tank destroyer and a new iron hands Primaris guy too. Even if it's just a second edition like chaos got?

Undoubtedly on the way.

Some rumours point to vehicles getting a chapter tactic as well.

But will it simply be a Primaris codex or another full marine release? It's already a bloated book - I wish they would simply consolidate data sheets wherever possible.

cody.d. wrote:

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

I mean, you do play Imperium, there is a good bit of access to snipers. Darkstrider is almost the perfect target.

Do you know what drones do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.

They have a 4+ save and put out 3 str 5 shots at 15" next to a fireblade. The point is after you assault a tau army - you should be winning - because you took a lot of fire to get there. Currently tau are basically immune to assault. They dont even need darkstrider - however - dark strider would make it even harder to beat tau with melle units.

My apologies for not playing my toy soldiers the correct way. I dont use a static gunline. I have cyborgs wearing red robes for that, and they do it better. Thank you for backing me up Xenomancer.

I don't even try to assault Tau with BA. They are a video game boss that is only vulnerable if you attack in a specific sequence at range.

 Xenomancers wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

I mean, you do play Imperium, there is a good bit of access to snipers. Darkstrider is almost the perfect target.

Do you know what drones do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.

They have a 4+ save and put out 3 str 5 shots at 15" next to a fireblade. The point is after you assault a tau army - you should be winning - because you took a lot of fire to get there. Currently tau are basically immune to assault. They dont even need darkstrider - however - dark strider would make it even harder to beat tau with melle units.

Really if your going to complain about a named charictor FFS look at a codex.

Darkstrider is a 5+ save, he doesn't do 3 shots untill 9 inches.
Though if your playing against people getting the rules that wrong no wonder your think everything is broken.

You realize he is behind firewarriors right? Possibly lots of them...I miss understood you - I thought we were talking about fire warriors. That is the unit that dark strider actually buffs.

Do you know what drones do?

Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.

cody.d. wrote:

Do you know what drones do?

Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.

That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.

Lemondish wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Do you know what drones do?

Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.

That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.

Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Do you know what drones do?

Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.

That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.

Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.

I think you misread what I said.

I said that terrain makes it difficult to counter shield drones for Astartes. That's why ignore LoS weapons are so reliable against them.

And lots of terrain is by far the best way to play this game. You, sir, can feel free to attend tournaments with piss poor boards all you want - doesn't mean it's a standard. Can you be clearer about what obscure crutches you're relying on in the future?

Being ill prepared to handle terrain because sometimes you won't have to is probably the weakest complaint I've heard from you yet.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Do you know what drones do?

Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.

That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.

Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.

No ones talking about relying on terrain. It's just if you are on a standard board (with bad but not non existent cover) You can easily hide a few drones. A few drones is all you need to completely ruin a marine shooting phase.

Hey, is anyone using whirlwinds? How are they performing? .

The strategem with the landspeeder seems a bit meh.

Ignore LoS is powerful. IG just do it much better.

A detachment of guard with a bunch of mortar heavy weapon teams would often make its points back in a table with a healthy amount of LOS blocking terrain. If nothing else it would allow you to take some of the anti-infantry strain off the marines so they can get to proper beakie jobs.

I seem to recall that someone above liked the FW Whirlwind variant for something, but the base one is still bad.

If you want to stick with Marines and ignore LoS, it's pretty much the Thunderfire for the strat or Eliminators for the snipe effect. Both offer something the Whirlwind doesn't for the same cost.

I used them a couple of times. Never had luck in the amount of shots.

Could go for Rapier mortars too. If a vehicle gets close and in LOS those things can do some real damage.

quick question ; If I take a libby on a bike, do I get access to book powers or am I limited to stuff that was avaiable from the index?

 davou wrote:
quick question ; If I take a libby on a bike, do I get access to book powers or am I limited to stuff that was avaiable from the index?

Short answer: yes.

Longer, and more honest answer: It depends. It's a contested issue, so ask your group. There's an inconclusive thread about it in YMDC.

So after 6 months I am finally coming home and it's time to take off the dust from my marines. One CA approved later, I have a lot of info to get in.
Basically, my new list looks like this;


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [122 PL, 1,912pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

Gametype: Matched

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Sergeant Chronus [11 PL, 216pts]
. Predator: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Company Veterans [8 PL, 80pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [8 PL, 138pts]
. 5x Scout Biker: 5x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Boltgun, Twin boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Predator [9 PL, 186pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

Predator [9 PL, 186pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner
. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 315pts]: Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

++ Total: [122 PL, 1,912pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


I decided to take a stormraven again because of the new bolter rules, and I am going to try the three pedators thanks to the cover stratagem (and this way I hope they won't have enough AT weapon to take down both T1)
I don't know for the vv, I just wanted something to go with my CM !

The main points I wanted to handle were: anti infantry firepower (getting better thanks to the bolter rules) and AT firepower (the predators).
However, I have no psy and very few boots on the ground (Marine psy is so bad and the librarian didn't get any discount !).

I do have 88 pts left, so feel free to comment and give advices !

Well, 1 quick thought is you’re only 2 troops and 2 fa from a 12cp brigade instead of a 5cp battalion. That’s like 180 points, so you could do it just by swapping the tacticals to scouts and using the last points for some attack bikes or tarantulas.
Edit: just realized there was more than 3 scout bikes, so could break those into 2 squads.

Do I really need those CP ? No ML, no HB, and it's gonna be SM stratagems, not the greatest ones...

Admittedly true, but you can get +7 for cheaper than the loyal 32...
Bare min you can move 1 hq and 3 of a type over to get +1 for free.

What do you think of terminators now ? I have never been a fan (offensive output so low !!!), but with the beacon they could tp, kill a lonely unit, and come back home, they could secure the relic, and give me a bit more mobility, for 'only" 165 points ?

bort wrote:
Admittedly true, but you can get +7 for cheaper than the loyal 32...
Bare min you can move 1 hq and 3 of a type over to get +1 for free.

Yeah indeed, I could put the CM and the elite choices in their own vanguard detchament. Always good to grab one more CP for free

Or I could use an assassin, they have become super nice !

If you can, get in Tigurius, the ability to make a friendly model have an additional -1 to hit for free at the start of the opponents shooting phase is going to be a big help. The access to MoH to buff either the captain for damage (5 Str 10 thunder hammer hits, yes please, 6 if you use him as the imperiums sword WLT) or make the stormraven or one of the predators T8, which is one of the biggest toughness thresholds in the game.

Give the LT a thunderhammer, he has 3 attacks at WS2, then purchase the armor indomitus for him. I use it on my JP librarian all the time and it makes him extremely durable.

Was putting some thought into terminators and was initially couldn't really think of a good way to use them because as you said damage output is pretty low. But then I started thinking of how to use the strategic mobility aspect to really use the terminators and came up with a couple ideas that might make them capable in a TAC list:

1) Standard Deepstrike, get stuck in, teleport back to the objective after the squad is spent. Going to work best with a list that applies a lot of second turn pressure

2) Charge blockers, many lists take advantage of charging and surrounding small, tough to kill units, and pillowfisting them to protect against your shooting. Terminators aren't necessarily easy to displace and could be decent first turn blockers that just nope out when they get tied up

3) Far flank defense, got objectives in the corners or want to shove out the flank bubble? Place a terminator on each flank/ corner with the homers being covered by their brother squad. It allows you to project board control onto either flank while also giving you the option to overload one of yours if the need arises.

Basically, terminators are going to have low damage output even with a cyclone missile launcher. but have some strategic mobility that allows them to apply that firepower and durability where it might be more useful. The problem is that the mobility is really vulnerable, an enemy just needs to get within 9 inches to disable it. So they'll always remain a risky pick, I think they just need a stratagem that gives them a bit of extra oomf, or make teleport homers equip-able by all infantry and bike units so that terminators can act as a constant re positioning force

Yeah so today I learnt / remembered that the stormraven doesn't have the new rapid fire rule and doesn't get the cover T1 because he is a flyer. So, hum, he is a big fragile target that can't even use correctly it's hurricane bolters, for 300 points. I guess I'll have to let him collect dust a little bit longer...

Otherwise, have you used dreadnought lately ? I wanna play my ironclad, especially seeing as I will probably play defensively with my marines so its low movement wouldn't be such an issue. One ven and one ironclad instead of he vv and one tac would give me a bit more long range AT firepower and tank saturation but I'm not sure about the ironclad

Vilehydra wrote:
If you can, get in Tigurius, the ability to make a friendly model have an additional -1 to hit for free at the start of the opponents shooting phase is going to be a big help. The access to MoH to buff either the captain for damage (5 Str 10 thunder hammer hits, yes please, 6 if you use him as the imperiums sword WLT) or make the stormraven or one of the predators T8, which is one of the biggest toughness thresholds in the game.

Give the LT a thunderhammer, he has 3 attacks at WS2, then purchase the armor indomitus for him. I use it on my JP librarian all the time and it makes him extremely durable.

Was putting some thought into terminators and was initially couldn't really think of a good way to use them because as you said damage output is pretty low. But then I started thinking of how to use the strategic mobility aspect to really use the terminators and came up with a couple ideas that might make them capable in a TAC list:

1) Standard Deepstrike, get stuck in, teleport back to the objective after the squad is spent. Going to work best with a list that applies a lot of second turn pressure

2) Charge blockers, many lists take advantage of charging and surrounding small, tough to kill units, and pillowfisting them to protect against your shooting. Terminators aren't necessarily easy to displace and could be decent first turn blockers that just nope out when they get tied up

3) Far flank defense, got objectives in the corners or want to shove out the flank bubble? Place a terminator on each flank/ corner with the homers being covered by their brother squad. It allows you to project board control onto either flank while also giving you the option to overload one of yours if the need arises.

Basically, terminators are going to have low damage output even with a cyclone missile launcher. but have some strategic mobility that allows them to apply that firepower and durability where it might be more useful. The problem is that the mobility is really vulnerable, an enemy just needs to get within 9 inches to disable it. So they'll always remain a risky pick, I think they just need a stratagem that gives them a bit of extra oomf, or make teleport homers equip-able by all infantry and bike units so that terminators can act as a constant re positioning force

I like the thinking behind everything in this post.

In particular, I like the 3rd Terminator idea a lot, with the "crossed" Teleport Homers. I've tried to come up with good ways to use that ability and never really came up with something satisfying, but the 'doubling up' potential is very cool.

I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.

 Master Chief VF wrote:
I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.

80 points for a lascannon (with some perks) The extra range over a normal LC is often overkill, the free re-roll is nice, but odds are you have a captain near. Plus vs. flyers is pretty sweet, if situational.

It’s on a T8 chassis, which is also very nice.

For 110 you get a TLLC Razor. Double the firepower (ish) for only 30 more points. T7, so not quite as nice, a little cargo which can help lower drops, no slot required.

Don’t get me wrong, I think the hunter is a very overlooked tank. But I don’t know if I’d go so far at to call it one of the strongest models, or mandatory to take multiples. If you need to fill HS slots for a brigade, you could do a lot worse though.