Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

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**Xenomancers**

stratigo wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.

A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.

**Lemondish**

Xenomancers wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.

A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.

"Literally can not win"

**Xenomancers**

Lemondish wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.

A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.

"Literally can not win"

Let me break it down here.
Tau have 1+ saves in cover on both riptides and broadsides. You are shooting mostly ap-0/1 and single shot anti tank that has decent ap-2 or 3.
So ether way hes taking 2+ saves. 2+ saves to put the wounds on the drones and 2+ saves for having a 1+ save in cover. Sure eventually hell run out of drones. You run out of lascannons before they do though.
When he shoots at you - hes ignoring cover with predominantly ap-2. So you get 5+ saves and hes got more shots.
Like is it that hard to figure you can't win in this scenario?
2+ saves vs 5+ saves...who wins?

**Lemondish**

I've won against Tau. Lots of people have. You see, the key to winning at this game is to actually play it. Only then you'll see there's more to it than a simplified one to one comparison.
I know you've previously said you don't play, so I understand there are factors involved that are a lot harder to come to grips with. You simply haven't yet modeled them into your assessment.

So you're factually incorrect. Try again, bub

**Bharring**

2+ saves vs 5+ saves...who wins?

When it's Marines with the 2+ and Xenos/IG/etc with the 5+, Xenos/IG/etc?
When it's Marines with the 5+ and Xenos/IG/etc with the 2+, Xenos/IG/etc?

Not sure how that works so well.

**Xenomancers**

Points dude. Points. Marine stuff is expensive. Infantry are 4 points.

This is interaction here is specific to the fact that drones make single shot weapons useless. Most xenos units are not single shot variety and if they are - they are mobile and able to get around the drone problem. marines lists literally can not. Because they don't have to tools to deal with the problem.

You can jsut dump plasma into them. But low and behold! The power of on demand -1 to hit. The commander is just going to make the squad kill itself with neuroweb system jammer.

**Mandragola**

Nowadays people are playing with things called "missions". Tau aren't particularly good at them, because they tend to involve capturing objectives outside of the Tau deployment zone - where no Tau wants to be.

Tau are always a nasty opponent but with some LoS blocking terrain and the CA18 missions they are entirely beatable.

**Martel732**

That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.

**Xenomancers**

Mandragola wrote:
Nowadays people are playing with things called "missions". Tau aren't particularly good at them, because they tend to involve capturing objectives outside of the Tau deployment zone - where no Tau wants to be.

Tau are always a nasty opponent but with some LoS blocking terrain and the CA18 missions they are entirely beatable.

Yes they are beatable. Harlequins do particularly well against them because they can turn off overwatch. So do eldar because the wave serpent is really durable against tau shooting and can tie units up after turn 1 and they can take hostages with shinning spears and their own on demand -1 tot hit against them. Guard do really well against them because of their huge amount of LOS ignoring weapons and not to mention they actually outrange tau in most situations. They aren't beatable with marines though. Which is all I was saying.

**Rogerio134134**

Lemondish wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
So I've been using my crimson fists as Deathwatch but fancy actually using them as space marines for once. Here's a quick run down of my list.

Battalion - crimson fists

Pedro Kantor

Primaris lt with auto bolter

5 infiltrators
5 intercessors
5 intercessors
5 intercessors

3 plasma inceptors

5 hellblasters
5 hellblasters

Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon
Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon

Spearhead detachment

Smash captain with thunder hammer

Redemptor with Gatling cannons
Primaris ancient with banner of emperor ascendant
3 aggressors

----

Very similar list to what I currently use with my Deathwatch and the plan I normally use is putn everything together in a big blob and match it forward and then deepstrike a hard hitting unit in behind the enemy.

So in this force I'll be placing the aggressors and hellblasters inside the repulsors to keep them safe at the start of the game and slowly move everything forward within Kantor and the banners aura too get all re roll hits and return fire on death.

Tempted to make them a liberator strike force detachment as well to gain the decent stratagems from that too.

Few points and questions - it's totally pedantic, but that's a Vanguard Detachment not a Spearhead

Definitely worth it to make those Hellblasters a full 10 man instead of 2 MSU squads if you go with the Liberator detachment. Can always combat squad if you need to. The bigger squad makes those nice specialist detachment strats better.

A smash captain with a thunder hammer isn't the best choice for Crimson Fists because you can use the Fist of Vengeance relic to hit as hard as a Thunder Hammer, but without the penalty to hit, and it's cheaper. Another fun variant I've seen is more of a blender style Warlord of a Captain on a bike with a Thunder Hammer, Chainsword swapped to teeth of terra, and the the one warlord trait that gives you more attacks if you're surrounded. Throws out a ton of attacks and is super fun.

I'm not entirely sure those Infiltrators will do much without support. They're expensive, but committing to them in numbers gives you some really powerful tricks and tools against a variety of different armies - they also like having support from their HQs. I'm just not sure a single unit of them will achieve much. Give it a shot though and let us know!

Cheers bud I always use a smash captain normally to come in with the inceptors and he does well but ill bare in mind the power fist captain.

Infiltrators I agree on, may just use more intercessors.

**Mandragola**

I run a Primaris captain with the fist of vengance. He's cheap enough at 92 points to mostly sit around buffing my repulsors, and then batter anything that comes into melee range. Ideally he'd have a Lieutenant and Librarian to buff him (might of heroes and null zone) but even without he's a true beatstick. 5 attacks hitting on 2s is way better than 4 hitting on 3s.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.

LOS blocking favors tau in most cases too. Most units fly so can just hop over obstructions. SMS are a great weapon that doesn't need LOS. Plus drones out of LOS are unmanageable without tons of ignore LOS. Really I think drones need a rule where they have to be within LOS of the shooting unit to be used to block shots. Then marines have a chance. Because they have plenty of anti infantry weapons. They just can't shoot them at the correct targets against tau in most cases.

**grouchoben**

Mandragola's right, SM often have the edge in playing the mission. I've beaten pretty good Tau lists, but with 2 marines left on the board. They will decimate you. The question is, can you rack up enough points to thumb your nose at them over the piles of your soldiers?

Of course, all this assumes that your Tau opponent hasn't brought some movement in their list. They have good movement and DS if they want it, but the allure of more über dakka is hard to resist, and the balance is tricky to achieve as far as I can see.

Really, I think against a well played Tau sept list, Gman lists are the only ones that might be viable. Hardly 'insight of the year', I know.

**Bharring**

When facing a gunline I can't dislodge, I can usually out-mission them. I'll end the match with far less on the board, but they'll have trouble holding ground outside their gunline.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.

If there was ever a single thing that could be described as being the "wrong" way to play 40k, planet bowling ball would definitely be it.

**Martel732**

Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.

**Martel732**

Just saying. Why is low terrain so bad, then? You don't like it? What real function does a huge amount of terrain serve, then?

**Bharring**

Variability.

We can run simple simulations to calculate the result of simple standoff firefights. Those will mirror exactly what you should expect on Planet Bowling Ball.

But, no two tables should be identical for terrain. A cunning maneuver one game that let you LOS his firebase while still hitting his skirmishers/chaff will simply not be an option next game, because the terrain is different/in different spots.

The more terrain, the more it varies. A gunline on a very terrain-dense board will have a ton of overlapping blindspots. Those blindspots give you options.

Last time I faced an IG gunline, they got Hammer & Anvil - basically an additional free turn of shooting before I could do anything. The terrain was dense enough such that until bottom of 2,only a couple units could fire at only my most durable units, which had cover. On Planet Bowling Ball, they could just have shot whatever whenever from wherever.

**Martel732**

That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.

**Bharring**

No, not at all.

The same argument holds whether it's Shooting or CC that's too good. The biggest difference is that CC tends to prefer LOS-blocking terrain, whereas Shooting prefers impassible but not LOS-blocking terrain.

Even if/when CC is too good, terrain provides variability. Without it, it's not much more complicated to simulate the results.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.

I think you've hit your head a little too hard.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
No, not at all.

The same argument holds whether it's Shooting or CC that's too good. The biggest difference is that CC tends to prefer LOS-blocking terrain, whereas Shooting prefers impassible but not LOS-blocking terrain.

Even if/when CC is too good, terrain provides variability. Without it, it's not much more complicated to simulate the results.

If you say so.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.

Unbelievable.

**Xenomancers**

changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:
changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.

That post is from 2017.

**Xenomancers**

Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.

That post is from 2017.

Not sure how I ended up there. Though it is still funny.

**godardc**

stratigo wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.

Predators are significantly better than vindis.

But, again, you need three, plus other tanks. Predators work when your army is all armor and few infantry.

But too much armor and you are vulnerable to T1 and T2 assaults. Especially my friend playing kraken kids...
It's difficult to balance things out !

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.

I bet you think limits on charge distance is just GW nerfing melee because it's too good otherwise too eh?

**Martel732**

Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.