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Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.

The game is meant to be played with terrain. The points values are balanced with terrain in mind. Every battle report GW has ever done with 40k has included terrain. It's a wargame, and you would expect units to see their value increase/decrease with terrain. In fact, it's one of the reasons why 40k can't be (and shouldn't be) "perfectly balanced." It also makes perfect sense that an army focussed on shooting would have an advantage over an army focussed on punching you, in an open field at some distance, because duh.

In addition, YOU are responsible in no small part for the types of tables you game on.

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.

Seriously? If there’s not enough terrain then shooty armies will benefit, because they can shoot anything they want. Too much and melee armies will benefit because they won’t be shot. You therefore want a decent amount of terrain so as to have fair and interesting games. This is obvious.

It’s totally reasonable to have a fair set up of terrain that makes for interesting games featuring movement, rather than simply deciding games between two gunlines by whoever wins the roll for first turn. I don’t play this game just to flip a coin to see who wins.

You’re wrong to say that terrain is a random factor. Tournaments will usually publish their terrain set ups in advance so you can prepare for it. You know what terrain you have in your own collection or what your local club has. So you can design your army to work with the conditions you’ll be facing, say by taking more stuff that ignores LoS if there’s a lot of stuff that blocks it.

Terrain isn't a single random factor; it's a collection of tons of partially-independent factors. Which means that, while any individual one facet might be unpredictable, there's a great deal of consistency on the whole.

That's why relying on multiple random factors is better than relying no a single random factor.

And there's the LoS blocking/IG effect. I guess it's not common enough to factor in.

I haven't seen that many events that publish ahead of time, but I've never looked at the big ones.

 godardc wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.

Predators are significantly better than vindis.

But, again, you need three, plus other tanks. Predators work when your army is all armor and few infantry.

But too much armor and you are vulnerable to T1 and T2 assaults. Especially my friend playing kraken kids...
It's difficult to balance things out !

This is one advantage vindis have over preds. You have to actually kill one of them to turn them off. You can fall back and still use their stratagem.

LOS (and ITC guidelines) have made Ignore LOS weapons like Bassies, Wyverns, more useful.

It took my PBC like 4 turns of lobbing flem to finally kill a unit of Scouts hidden behind a solid wall.

Yeah indirect fire weapons do exist, but they're less effective than direct fire guns. So if a player spends their points on wyverns to ignore terrain they'll have less firepower than if they'd taken tank commanders on planet bowling ball. The terrain is still doing its job.

There's certainly variation in how much cover there'll be, but it affects everyone. A shooty player who brings only direct fire guns will lose missions with lots of LoS-blocking terrain. A good player will therefore take stuff to manage that issue, slightly reducing their firepower in the process. LoS blockers are therefore the antidote to leafblower lists, because they make it impossible to win a tournament playing that way.

I'm generally quite happy if people are trying to shift my intercessors out of cover with mortars and stuff. It takes a long time to get rid of them. I'm less happy about basilisks!

Basilisks are crazy good.

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.

Dice are random, too. What I'm trying to teach you here is that the mark of a good player is how they're able to maximize the strengths of the army they're piloting while mitigating its weaknesses in the face of uncertainties and factors not under their control. This is called player skill, and it's how folks are still winning games as Blood Angels even when you aren't. This happens during the game - not before. Terrain can be random, but how you use it to mitigate your weaknesses or maximize your strengths is key.

This is the reason why we play games rather than simulating lists. This is hard to understand for somebody who doesn't play the game, but I can assure you that there's more to it than just list building, picking ITC secondaries, and then rolling a die to see who wins.

My win rate is actually right in line with 40kstats. That rate just sucks. I know that skill matters, but constantly running out of marines hurts a lot.

So i want to get your folks opionons on a unit i do not see used often, the lowly contemptor dreadnought. I was looking at it and comparing it to armiger warglaves and i think it is a valid option to run now days.

Comparison between the 2.

Speed = Warglaive is 14", but 9" contemptors is still pretty good. winner : Warglaive

Range = Warglaive has a 30" melta gun, Contemptor is a 24" multimelta. However contemptor hits on 2's vs warglaives 3's so when moving normal speed they are hitting on the same value and we are talking about 6" being the difference. Unfortunately i still have to give this one to the warglaive, it can advance and shoot where the contemptor cant so the Warglaive has a better threat range. Winner : warglaive.

Survivability = Warglaives have more wounds than a contemptor (12 vs 10) and both have a 3+/5++ save. However i would be remissed to not mention chapter tactics here. The contemptor can get -1 to hit outside 12" where the warglaive can get count double the remaining wounds. Both have access to a 6+++ option as well. In the end this one i think has to go to the warglaive, but only just so. Its really close, but it comes down to which you think is a better defensive buff, -1 to hit or count wounds as double. Winner : Warglaive

Cost = this is an easy one to cover, warglaives are 20 pts more expensive than contemptors. That savings can add up to 3 contemptors getting a free leiutenant out of the deal as the same cost as the 3 warglaives. Winner : Contemptor

Cp value = as i mentioned under cost 3 contemptors can get a free leiutenant for the price of 3 warglaives. Thats 1cp there. Also contemptors are elite choices, not LOW. This means if your trying to run a brigade they already have a spot to fill in. Warglaives are typically taken when your already doing a bigger knight to be sure to get the household trait and the cp. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, we are talking about in a space marine army right here and contemptors fit in better than warglaives if your looking for pure cp.

Close combat = This is a bit tricky to do. Both have arguably the same weapon for cc, str x2 ap-3 d3. Both get the same number of attacks (4). Contemptors are stonger than warglaives, wounding t7 on 2's vs 3's for the warglaive, but the warglaive does have a sweep attack that can do more hits vs a swarm force that may look to bog you down in cc. Chapter tactics have a few tricks to let the contemptor run free (ultramarines and white scars both work to make sure your contemptor isnt in a combat with something that isnt its entended target) but household traits have lots of bonuses that deal with cc as well. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, but only barely, because its higher strength and the synergy you can pull with it that the warglaive cant.

Synergy = now that i am talking about this i think its important to remember we are talking about a space marine army. This means many space marine powers can help make these guys even better. Might of heros is a particularly good one, +1 attack, str, and toughness means your wounding everything in cc on 2's thats not t9, which means pretty much everything. Warglaives cant get that kind of boost. If we are talking pure soup the issue becomes more muddied. But we are talking marines right now so in a marine force contemptors just fit better than warglaives. Winner : Contemptor (for a space marine army)


In the end its a tie i suppose, or at the very least the contemptor makes a valid alternative to the warglaive. There are tricks the warglaive can do a contemptor cant (outflanking for example, or advance and charge) so i think what it really comes down to is what the job your looking for them to do is. Any comments / thoughts welcomed.

No, it has always been part of the rules and the rules take them into account. Maybe it's not in the 8th Ed rulesbook as before but you had guidelines and everything about terrain and how much was needed at minimum.
You are not supposed to play on planet bowling ball and that's taken into account when they wrote the weapons and shooting rules: so if you don't play with terrain you are actually giving a free and random advantage to shooting.
Is it a concession because assault is too strong in your meta?
Don't think so, seems to be a misunderstanding of the rules.
Remember 40k ISN'T chess and never wanted to be, it's a narrative game, they told it enough like that, so you are supposed to tell something, a story, on a battlefield of the 41st millenium. I don't understand how you could play without terrain keeping that in mind ?

The narrative could be : "This battle takes place in a flat area similar to the eastern front in WWII".

That's an incredibly valid narrative.

Martel732 wrote:
The narrative could be : "This battle takes place in a flat area similar to the eastern front in WWII".

That's an incredibly valid narrative.

Absolutely true, I cannot agree more.

But then you're totally okay with doing whatever it is you want in a narrative game and the competitive value of your units goes out the window.

And the narrative doesn't stop with establishing the setting. Don't play every game on planet bowling ball and hide that fact when you're addressing the value of units of armies. It's skewed analysis and functionally worthless.

Azuza001 wrote:
So i want to get your folks opionons on a unit i do not see used often, the lowly contemptor dreadnought. I was looking at it and comparing it to armiger warglaves and i think it is a valid option to run now days.

Comparison between the 2.

Speed = Warglaive is 14", but 9" contemptors is still pretty good. winner : Warglaive

Range = Warglaive has a 30" melta gun, Contemptor is a 24" multimelta. However contemptor hits on 2's vs warglaives 3's so when moving normal speed they are hitting on the same value and we are talking about 6" being the difference. Unfortunately i still have to give this one to the warglaive, it can advance and shoot where the contemptor cant so the Warglaive has a better threat range. Winner : warglaive.

Survivability = Warglaives have more wounds than a contemptor (12 vs 10) and both have a 3+/5++ save. However i would be remissed to not mention chapter tactics here. The contemptor can get -1 to hit outside 12" where the warglaive can get count double the remaining wounds. Both have access to a 6+++ option as well. In the end this one i think has to go to the warglaive, but only just so. Its really close, but it comes down to which you think is a better defensive buff, -1 to hit or count wounds as double. Winner : Warglaive

Cost = this is an easy one to cover, warglaives are 20 pts more expensive than contemptors. That savings can add up to 3 contemptors getting a free leiutenant out of the deal as the same cost as the 3 warglaives. Winner : Contemptor

Cp value = as i mentioned under cost 3 contemptors can get a free leiutenant for the price of 3 warglaives. Thats 1cp there. Also contemptors are elite choices, not LOW. This means if your trying to run a brigade they already have a spot to fill in. Warglaives are typically taken when your already doing a bigger knight to be sure to get the household trait and the cp. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, we are talking about in a space marine army right here and contemptors fit in better than warglaives if your looking for pure cp.

Close combat = This is a bit tricky to do. Both have arguably the same weapon for cc, str x2 ap-3 d3. Both get the same number of attacks (4). Contemptors are stonger than warglaives, wounding t7 on 2's vs 3's for the warglaive, but the warglaive does have a sweep attack that can do more hits vs a swarm force that may look to bog you down in cc. Chapter tactics have a few tricks to let the contemptor run free (ultramarines and white scars both work to make sure your contemptor isnt in a combat with something that isnt its entended target) but household traits have lots of bonuses that deal with cc as well. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, but only barely, because its higher strength and the synergy you can pull with it that the warglaive cant.

Synergy = now that i am talking about this i think its important to remember we are talking about a space marine army. This means many space marine powers can help make these guys even better. Might of heros is a particularly good one, +1 attack, str, and toughness means your wounding everything in cc on 2's thats not t9, which means pretty much everything. Warglaives cant get that kind of boost. If we are talking pure soup the issue becomes more muddied. But we are talking marines right now so in a marine force contemptors just fit better than warglaives. Winner : Contemptor (for a space marine army)


In the end its a tie i suppose, or at the very least the contemptor makes a valid alternative to the warglaive. There are tricks the warglaive can do a contemptor cant (outflanking for example, or advance and charge) so i think what it really comes down to is what the job your looking for them to do is. Any comments / thoughts welcomed.

I've used both, so here are a couple of thoughts:

Don't call Contemptors "humble". They are pretty badass. It's arguable that they're our best dreadnought. They deliver their hits fairly rapidly and they don't tend to miss. Armigers only hit on a 3+ in combat, usually without rerolls.

Don't take a melta on a contemptor. The assault cannon gets 6 shots, so you've got some reasonable dakka for clearing screens.

A contemptor benefits a lot from a librarian. If Null Zone and Might of Heroes are cast then things will get messed up - even including enemy knights.

Ultimately I think a contemptor can be a decent use of 140 points. The Armiger's speed does probably give it the edge, but the Contemptor - once you include the buffs it can get - is more reliably dangerous.

I condidered the assault cannon and it also seems pretty good as a str 7 assault cannon but that comparison would be vs the dakka armiger and it would not end well for the contemptor i believe. 4d3 str 7 ap-1 2dmg is better than 6 str 7 ap-1 1dmg even before adding range in.

What got me onto this is that i picked up a relic contemptor from forgeworld recently, with double gattlings and the cyclone misisle launcher. I was thinking running 3 contemptors, 2 melta fist and 1 relic, in my black templar army (not the best chapter choice for them but rerolling charges could be useful to make sure those charges go off when they get in range).

But thank you for your input, i am glad i am not the only one who sees this unit and says "that could be nasty if buffed correctly "

Sorry but no, a contemptor with an assault cannon is not an analogue with an Armiger Helverin. A Helverin doesn't have a dreadnought close combat weapon with four attacks at WS2+. A Helverin is for shooting up vehicles while a kheres assault cannon is really just an anti-personnel weapon - quite a good one but really not the point of the dreadnought. There's no comparison whatsoever.

I guess something like a contemtpor mortis might be comparable with the Helverin. I've had ok results from contemptors with quad lascannons, and those got cheaper in the latest CA. I prefer stormcannon leviathans and deredeos though.

Sorry was late last night, didnt really post what I meant. I was saying the same thing, a contemptor with multimelta is a decent analog for a warglaive but a contemptor with an assault cannon isnt anywhere near the same as a helviern. Quad las mortis sounds cool, same with deredeos dreds. The the deredeos seem more like a support dread as well, being able to give a 5++ bubble to others. That could really help some units out (hellblasters, venerable dreads just to think of a few off the top of my head). Not really the same tool you know?

Ok cool, no worries. I just think the comparison is irrelevant.

It's not really important whether a contemptor is like an armiger - or any other unit. What matters is whether or not it's a useful unit for your army. A Kheres assault cannon isn't necessarily a bad choice because it's a different class of weapon to the armiger's melta lance.

The thing that armigers and contemptors are both really for is smashing things in melee. The nice thing about a contemptor is that it's a pretty efficient way of delivering those 3 damage hits to things. It's fairly cheap and quick, with a good strength and great WS. The armiger is faster and a little tougher, but it has a worse strength and WS, so it does less damage when it gets there.

Overall my experience is that both are kind of ok, but neither is a really great unit. People who want to do those D3 hits in melee tend to field smash captains, with good reason.

People take Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons on things like Contemptors and Leviathans?!

Well the basic contemptor has to take one so.... yeah?

A Contemptor is a decent platform for delivering those DCCW attacks, as I said. It works well because it doesn’t cost much, it’s reasonably quick and it tends to actually hit and wound things it reaches. That’s not to say that it’s a phenomenally powerful unit, but it’s one that’s able to do a job.

I haven’t seen anyone use a DCCW on a leviathan any time lately. I’ve got stormcannons on mine, which work ok. I prefer repulsors nowadays - the fly keyword is priceless.

So i picked up a repulsar exterminator with the plasma cannon to use in my black templar list recently, cant wait to try it out. But my local meta has seen a shift lately. This shift is to a lot of heavy armor and air. Harliquins, dark eldar, knights (oh the knights), stormfangs, stormravens, stormhawks.... it seems everyone either has 3 russ commanders or aircraft or a knight.

This got me thinking about the hunter and stalker units, specifically the hunter. Its 80 pts for a 60" single las cannon shot that rerolls failed hits and adds 1 to hit rolls vs aircraft. As a cheap option to add a laz cannon in vs a 5 man tactical squad with a single las this thing seems like a steal. What do you guys think of it?

Azuza001 wrote:
So i picked up a repulsar exterminator with the plasma cannon to use in my black templar list recently, cant wait to try it out. But my local meta has seen a shift lately. This shift is to a lot of heavy armor and air. Harliquins, dark eldar, knights (oh the knights), stormfangs, stormravens, stormhawks.... it seems everyone either has 3 russ commanders or aircraft or a knight.

This got me thinking about the hunter and stalker units, specifically the hunter. Its 80 pts for a 60" single las cannon shot that rerolls failed hits and adds 1 to hit rolls vs aircraft. As a cheap option to add a laz cannon in vs a 5 man tactical squad with a single las this thing seems like a steal. What do you guys think of it?

I'm a fan of the Hunter myself. I'm convinced the Hunter is actually one of the hidden gems of Codex Space Marines - mono build of course, there's definitely some more competitive options in the Imperial motor pool.

Yeah i agree. 80 pts for 11w t8 3+ save and 60" las cannon with built in rerolls.... i wonder why you dont see this unit more often.

^I'm so close to agreeing with the above, but I always wind up looking at the Razorback instead as it packs the Twin Las, or the Stalker for the multitude of shots.

But yes, 80 is a low low price for that T8 11w 60"Lascannon.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^I'm so close to agreeing with the above, but I always wind up looking at the Razorback instead as it packs the Twin Las, or the Stalker for the multitude of shots.

But yes, 80 is a low low price for that T8 11w 60"Lascannon.

Two of those and a Thunderfire cannon feels like a decent start to a Spearhead.

The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.

Mandragola wrote:
The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.

Don't take that against Eldar, Eldar can delete one each turn from 48" away.

Not sure why people are against predators, kill shot strat seems to work wonders. Any ideas on how this list did so well? What combos, tricks is this list running?

3rd Place
Ben Neal - Flying Monkey Con

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [31 PL, 413pts, 8CP] ++

+ HQ [13 PL, 226pts] +
Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 115pts]
Librarian in Phobos Armour [6 PL, 111pts]: Camo cloak [3pts], Force sword [8pts] Ultramarines

+ Troops [18 PL, 187pts] +
Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts] Black Templars

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle [52pts]: 4x Sniper rifle [8pts] Ultramarines

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle [52pts]: 4x Sniper rifle [8pts] Ultramarines

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [72 PL, 1,183pts, ] ++
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Victrix Guard [-1CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, 100pts] +
Librarian [6 PL, 100pts]: Force axe [10pts], Storm bolter [2pts]

+ Elites [40 PL, 599pts] +
Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 69pts]
Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 233pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 30pts], Melta bombs [5pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Veteran Sergeant [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 233pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 30pts], Melta bombs [5pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Veteran Sergeant [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 64pts]
. Victrix Honour Guard [32pts]: Power sword [4pts], Storm shield [2pts]
. Victrix Honour Guard [32pts]: Power sword [4pts], Storm shield [2pts]

+ Fast Attack [4 PL, 71pts] +
Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 71pts]
. 2x Scout Biker [46pts]: 2x Twin boltgun [4pts]
. Scout Biker Sergeant [25pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

+ Heavy Support [22 PL, 413pts] +
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 321pts]: 2x Heavy flamer [28pts], 3x Hunter-killer missile [18pts], Storm cannon array [50pts], Storm cannon array [50pts]
Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
Techmarine Gunner [37pts]
. . Servo-harness [11pts]: Flamer [6pts], Plasma cutter [5pts]

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP] ++
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP] +
Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP]: Warlord

++ Total: [121 PL, 1,996pts, 11CP] ++