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Because predators are super flimsy and miscosted.

That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.

That list puts out a ton of attacks from units with high invunerable saves, i can see that working just fine.

As for predators they are amazing, i take 3 all the time and they always do wonders. Problem is they are better in a space wolves detachment where Njal can cast stormcaller giving them a 2+ save then spend 3cp and make them -1 to hit making them much harder to kill. Basic marines cant get that level of protection.

You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?

Mandragola wrote:
That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.

I doubt hordes would be an issue. It doesn't show the relics on the list but we do know it's a Victrix Guard detachment. In that case he's almost guaranteed to be running the relic banner that adds +1 attack. In addition, you can spend CP to fight in your opponent's charge phase or add +1 to hit in the fight phase. Turns those Vanguard Vets into a freaking lawnmower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?

Yep.

Super weird, honestly.

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.

I doubt hordes would be an issue. It doesn't show the relics on the list but we do know it's a Victrix Guard detachment. In that case he's almost guaranteed to be running the relic banner that adds +1 attack. In addition, you can spend CP to fight in your opponent's charge phase or add +1 to hit in the fight phase. Turns those Vanguard Vets into a freaking lawnmower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?

Yep.

Super weird, honestly.

It's not super weird, it's just them finally allowing you to have wysiwyg rules.

As for the list it's nice to see something different to the standard parking lot for marines but I hate that it's yet more atleast subfaction only soup or go home for competitive lists.

It makes sense because literally every unit is pulling some form of double-duty, which marines really need to take advantage of to compete.

For example,

The librarian trio is tailoring psychic powers to the match-up (if its ITC at least), allowing for the conclave strat to ensure null-zone gets off, and providing sufficient deny. They also aren't slouches in combat with force weapons. Give the phobos the armour indomitus and your looking at a 0+ save in cover, making him pretty difficult to remove.

The UM scouts can pull board control, character suppression, and objective holding. The BT scouts allowing for a 50%/75% chance to just outright deny a psychic power is also critical.

Vanguard vets are lawnmowers, heavy-hitters with the thunderhammers, and can also tie units down. I'd be curious how many games he won with this list by surrounding a non-fly tank and just pillowfisting it until it was the opponents CC phase. Having access to Psychic fortress is also critical for reducing the damage done by smite spam.

The Leviathan is just good, especially when MoH'ed and protected by Tiggy.

The thunderfire puts out some decent Ignore LOS fire, but the real benefit is its ability to control units like genestealers or lord discordants with the strategem.

And Rowboat just ties it together. he can beatstick enemy beatsticks while providing all of the juicy UM buffs nearby.

Mandragola wrote:
The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.

I didn't think my repulsor was that bad to build, I mean my personal hell was the chaos marine Defiler.

Tomorrow I'm thinking of fielding dual repulsor crimson fist force with 2 repulsors and Kantor, anyone have much luck with Pedro?? He seems expensive but reroll all hits is great and he gives all crimson fists that plus 1 attack which is handy

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Tomorrow I'm thinking of fielding dual repulsor crimson fist force with 2 repulsors and Kantor, anyone have much luck with Pedro?? He seems expensive but reroll all hits is great and he gives all crimson fists that plus 1 attack which is handy

Pedro has done some serious work in almost every game I have run. He does need some protection, but Pedro's Goon Squad of Honour Guard, a Captain with the Fist of Vengeance, and an Ancient is nuts.

A chapter master is a big help for repulsors. They fire an awful lot of dakka so full rerolls help a lot. They make the biggest difference with overwatch, where it almost doubles their firepower, making them no fun at all to charge.

I’ve not run Pedro for my fists. I just sometimes upgrade my Primaris Captain to a chapter master. Pedro is kind of awesome though.

Yeah I'm going to give him a shot tomorrow, twin repulsors with hellblasters/aggressors, Pedro walking behind the tanks and redemptor and see how we get on.

Vilehydra wrote:
It makes sense because literally every unit is pulling some form of double-duty, which marines really need to take advantage of to compete.

For example,

The librarian trio is tailoring psychic powers to the match-up (if its ITC at least), allowing for the conclave strat to ensure null-zone gets off, and providing sufficient deny. They also aren't slouches in combat with force weapons. Give the phobos the armour indomitus and your looking at a 0+ save in cover, making him pretty difficult to remove.

The UM scouts can pull board control, character suppression, and objective holding. The BT scouts allowing for a 50%/75% chance to just outright deny a psychic power is also critical.

Vanguard vets are lawnmowers, heavy-hitters with the thunderhammers, and can also tie units down. I'd be curious how many games he won with this list by surrounding a non-fly tank and just pillowfisting it until it was the opponents CC phase. Having access to Psychic fortress is also critical for reducing the damage done by smite spam.

The Leviathan is just good, especially when MoH'ed and protected by Tiggy.

The thunderfire puts out some decent Ignore LOS fire, but the real benefit is its ability to control units like genestealers or lord discordants with the strategem.

And Rowboat just ties it together. he can beatstick enemy beatsticks while providing all of the juicy UM buffs nearby.

Awesome. Just what i was looking for.
Can you clarify what you mean by: Double duty? LIke whats the double duty for the Vanguards? I assume you mean good in 2 phases, but some units don't seem obvious to me.
What is this "surround non fly tank and pillowfisting until opponents CC phase?" Can you elaborate?

"Double duty" as in manage two or more roles/functions, most likely. Being able to respond to several types of threats is important.

Vanguards there are mentioned as being able to deal high damage (which is obvious), but also tie stuff down (which is also a really good use). Not killing something immediately, but taking it out of the opposing players control, while at the same time shielding your Vanguard from effective counterplay is a pro move, imo.

When it comes to space marines you really need to have a double duty plan for every unit you put into the list.

Example : Black Templar Scouts. With their special deployment they can deploy right on the front line. If you go first you can move them forward but not charge, putting them 3" away from an opponents line and move blocking important things t1 from being useable, like a knight gallent. If your opponent goes first you can deny any psycic powers t1 with them thanks to the black templar strat. Finally if they are ignored they can grab mid field objectives easy. All these uses for 55 pts is pretty good. Sure they will probably die after t1 but they did their job well.

Thats why bt scouts are finding their way into many soup lists.

How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.

bananathug wrote:
How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.

That sounds filthy, go Crimson fists with MSU and multiple repulsor/redemptor for massive rate of fire?

bananathug wrote:
How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.

Disco lords require board control. The real killing power in that list are the discos and morty, you need to hold back the discos while you kill morty. BT scouts are excellent in this regard as they also have the deny strat for either miasma of pestilence OR warp time, depending on your board situation. Focus down morty, then focus down the discos without giving up too much ground. The one that gives +2 to advance and charge as a field commander trait is your primary target after morty is down. They're tough, but plasma and lascannons both fit perfect into the niche of killng Disco lords. -3 AP puts it right into their invuln save, and you only need 6 wounds (3 for lascannons) to go through. Also, keep your units spread in such a way that they cant be consolidated into.

As per plaguebearers, massed bolter fire followed by mass charges. I know it sounds silly but think of it like this. The -1 lasts for the phase, so you need to shoot plaguebearer squad below 20. You then need to absolutely pile on casualties. The best way to mitigate plaguebearer toughness is to force morale checks on them. If you're running snipers or any assassins, murder the sloppity bilepiper. Essentially every kill past 7 counts as double so forcing two plaguebearer squads to make d6+X morale checks is an excellent way to force models off the board. Of course the demon Icon makes this less reliable, but its still the best way of putting down plaguebearer models.

On a side note, I've been running a sternguard/vulkan team in a rhino to mulch these sort of lines, and while they don't generally outright kill the PBs, the remove enough models to charge them without a -1 and force a morale save.

Also, lists that have discos and plaguebearers may put the plaguebearers in a daisy chain at the front. IIRC the disco bases are larger then 2" at their smallest point (not quite sure, would need to doublecheck). If this is the case, then you can use his plaguebearers against their movement paths with scouts in CC with plaguebearers.

Also @ Dynas. No matter what weapon your equipped with, every unit has a 'base attack' that is their strength and no AP. You can use this to your advantage by locking down units in assault so that you can avoid the enemy shooting phase. For example, you enemy has two leman russes, you can only charge one. You charge the leman with the vanguard, get in, and surround the leman russ so it can no longer fallback. Now you have two options, use the thunderhammers equipped on some of the vanguard to try and kill the leman russ, OR to have all of them use their str 4 ap- standard attacks instead. If you kill it, you remove the leman russ for the rest of the game, and your vanguard are now sitting in the open ready to get shot by the other leman russ. If you tie it down, you negate it for a round of shooting while also having the added benefit of protecting your vanguard vets from the other leman russ. In their combat phase, you attempt to kill the thing (spending the 3 CP if necessary to fight again) so that you can now charge and kill his other leman russ. These sort of moves can win you games.

Hey guys, just wanted to post the space marines list I've been using lately and have been having moderate success with. I don't post much, but I check in on this board regularly, and take peoples suggestions on here into consideration. I would love to hear opinions and get some constructive criticism. This list attempts to feel like a balanced marines force, with lots of power armored bodies, and a variety of support units, incorporating tanks, planes and dreadnoughts, while still hitting hard and having some staying power.

Space Marines Battalion 2000 points

HQ
Primaris Chapter Master with plasma pistol and power fist
Primaris LT with power sword and pistol

Troops
x10 primaris intercessors, sgt with power sword (use primaris vets strategem upgrade to be able to use double tap bolt rifles)
x5 primaris intercessors
x5 primaris intercessors
x5 bolter scouts
x5 bolter scouts
x5 sniper scouts

Elites
Redemptor Dread with double gatling
Relic contemptor dread with quad lascannons
Relic Venator Sicaran Tank Destroyer w/ heavy bolter
x5 Primaris Reivers with grav chutes and carbines

Fast Attack
x4 bikers, sgt with storm bolter

Flyer
Xiphon Interceptor with 4 lascannons and rotary missile launcher

Dedicated Transport
Razorback with twin assault cannons

Auxiliary Support Detachment
Custodes Telemon Dreadnought with two archanus storm cannons and spiculus bolt launcher

I usually form two separate fire bases to hold two objectives to start. One has the Chapter master and LT buffing the contemptor and redemptor, and some supporting primaris infantry. The other fire base has the Telemon and razorback and some infantry. The sicaran and Xiphon can move and shoot without penalty, so they start hidden and then move into buff range if possible or to the flank that needs the most help. The scouts serve multiple roles depending on match up. Vs shooty armies they infiltrate and hold remote or back field objectives, and vs assault armies they form a screen. The reivers deepstrike and either grab a poorly defended out of the way objective or reinforce the line and the bikes either help clear screens or advance onto objectives. The telemon has been useful in being a multi role long range support unit; tough to kill and capable of killing multiple infantry types or heavily damaging armor as necessary. I feel like if I wanted a palate change, a repulsor executioner could fill a similar role for similar points. The xiphon can move quickly and damage tanks, or get in deep to threaten LOS ignoring units. I have plenty of other marine units available in my collection, and would appreciate suggestions on tweaks. Thanks!

Why Relic Contemptor Dread with quad las instead of a Contemptor Mortis?

you've got 4 units in elites, am I missing something?

@BrianDavion

You get 6 elite slots in a battalion right?

@Crazyterran

I could save some points by going contemptor mortis (like 10-15 or so I think?) but I didn't really have anything else to sink those 15 points into that I could think of. The relic one gets a couple extra wounds and a 6+ FNP which is nice for durability. I usually go raven guard too, so if I pop him in cover he can be fairly resilient. I have 2 relic unit elite slots by taking the other two non relic elites (sicaran takes a relic unit slot too), so I figured why not.

rooster92 wrote:
@BrianDavion

You get 6 elite slots in a battalion right?

.

.. so you do. guess a part of me was still stuck in the old FOC.

Although if you can find the points for another HQ at this point you might be better off creating a vanguard detachment for your elties to gain back another CP.

Thinking of going with this list now I've ordered the executioner...ok maybe not a tournament winning list but I quite like the immense firepower.

-----


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [123 PL, 1,999pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists

+ HQ +

Pedro Kantor [9 PL, 150pts]

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 102pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 106pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 102pts]: Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Repulsor Executioner [15 PL, 299pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy Laser Destroyer, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2x Storm bolter, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber

+ Dedicated Transport +

Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [123 PL, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

3 big tanks and a dread with some decent infantry too, the plan is for the 3 tanks to advance together with Pedro hugging the back of the executioner with the leiutenant to grant all the re rolls.

Yeah thats a pretty interesting list. I faced something similar last week, dark angels player had the executioner, regular repulsar, and a land raider crusader vs my eldar. It... didnt go well for him. A doomed / jinxed repulsar dies very quickly to shuriken fire, and it doesn't even have to be a lot, so be careful against stuff like that.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah thats a pretty interesting list. I faced something similar last week, dark angels player had the executioner, regular repulsar, and a land raider crusader vs my eldar. It... didnt go well for him. A doomed / jinxed repulsar dies very quickly to shuriken fire, and it doesn't even have to be a lot, so be careful against stuff like that.

Yeah to be honest the scene at my local club is not top tier play unless you specifically ask your opponent for a game like that so I think they will do ok. Normally I run a list with a single repulsor and 2 dreads and I do quite well at a local level.

I love the tanks though and think they look fantastic, if there was a way of giving them an invulnerable save somehow it would make them quite powerful.

Beyond forgeworld or a castellen level knight i don't think there is. I hear ya, they should have an invunerable of some sort, even 6++ would help.

Why would you not trade autolaunchers for frag launchers? 2d6 str 4 shots at 18" range is totally worth 8 points. IMO its also worth it to upgrade the storm bolters to frag launchers. Then you are dumping 4d6 str 4 on something. For 12 points you will be doing 14 shots str 4 instead of 4 shots. For 12 points. Totally worth. Sometimes youll roll hot to and get 20+ shots. When your rerolling all hits and 1's to wound. That is a whole infantry unit destroyed.

Also...I think a standard LT is probably better. You save a fair amount of points plus you can give him reasonable gear if you want...like a jump pack TH SS. Im assuming your LT is taking your relic as well. So A chainsword and SS and jump pack is probably your best build. Then give him teeth of tera. Or you can take the crimson fist power fist which is quite good. In order to make these changes youd probably need to take a TLHB on a repulsar

Good suggestions but I really like the consistency of storm bolters, the enemy is usually within 12 so I get a guaranteed 12 shots plus 18 shots from the Gatling and all the rest.

I did look into a liberator strike force leiutenant with the 9 inch reroll hits bubble but realised it's only Primaris characters!

I agree that you should aways upgrade the auto launchers. You pay so much for the guns piled on that thing, you are not going to want to forgo shooting, barring niche cases.

I’ll take stormbolters over frag launchers though.

S/AP/D is the same. Range and number of shots are what mater.
Stombolers get 4 shots <12”. Better then the d6.
From 12-18” The d6 is going to be better then the bolter’s 2 shots.
18-24” the stombolter still gets those two shots though.

So the frag launchers are better statistically in the 12-18” band. That’s not nothing, and covers a lot of ground. But I prefer the consistancy of flat numbers, and the better close in fire and option for longer range. If they cost the same, it might be a coin toss. But the Frags are more expensive, so I take bolters when able. YMMV