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 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that you should aways upgrade the auto launchers. You pay so much for the guns piled on that thing, you are not going to want to forgo shooting, barring niche cases.

I’ll take stormbolters over frag launchers though.

S/AP/D is the same. Range and number of shots are what mater.
Stombolers get 4 shots <12”. Better then the d6.
From 12-18” The d6 is going to be better then the bolter’s 2 shots.
18-24” the stombolter still gets those two shots though.

So the frag launchers are better statistically in the 12-18” band. That’s not nothing, and covers a lot of ground. But I prefer the consistancy of flat numbers, and the better close in fire and option for longer range. If they cost the same, it might be a coin toss. But the Frags are more expensive, so I take bolters when able. YMMV

The main reason that 18" band matter is the kraks are also 18". So typically you will want to maintain 18". That combined with you -2 to charge keeps certain units from being able to reliably charge you. Getting within 12 can also be difficult ESP when trying to stay in an aura. It was a no brainer when bolt dics effected vehicles though.

Had a tournament today, rounds 1 and 2. Rounds 3 and 4 are next sunday. Our flgs does tournaments more casually, so the rules are you can change whatever you want in between rounds, but once your opponent has been named your stuck to your list you have on hand at that point to hand to them. Even so i stuck to the same list both rounds, and won my first 2 games. We randomly roll for missions from chapter approved 2018.

My list. Both games i spent 3cp and turned the captain on bike into a chapter master.




So my first opponent was running chaos knights with chaos deamons (slaanssh). He had a chaos castellen, a chaos gallent, a chaos helvrine, 30 deamonettes, the special slaanesh deamon prince, and the special keeper of secrets.

Mission was beachead.

I deployed 2 of my 5 man scout squads in the center 9" away from my opponents line and on the center objective, then spread out covering my flanks. 3rd scout squad and 2 venerable dreads sat on my own objective.

I went first, moved my scouts up advancing them and leaving the center objective putting all 10 scouts out in a line 2" away from his gallant and keeper of secrets. I then moved the vindicators up within 24" of the demonettes / deamon prince. Finally i moved my dreadnaughts forward towards the center. I used the strat for mortal wounds and killed 7 demonettes from 1 squad, 4 from another, and put 4 on the deamon prince. I also put 6 wounds onto the keeper of secrets.

My plan worked perfectly. He moved up but the scouts move blocked the galant completely and forced the keeper to go around, buying me a free turn. The demonettes and dp moved up too but were just outside charge range after advancing. Shooting / assault he ended up killing the contemptor, the 1 move blocking scout squads and 3 from the other move block squad, one of my 5 man crusader squads, and did 6 wounds to one of the ironclads.

Turn 2 i unloaded everything at the deamons. I ended up killing the deamon prince, all the demonettes, the keeper of secrets, and the gallent took 8 wounds. I repaired the ironclad 3 wounds, and took control of the center objective while getting the remaining forward scouts onto his objective to at least contest his objective.

His turn 2 he tried to regroup, moving his gallent up to get at the center and putting the castellen onto his own objective. He killed the few remaining forward scouts, killed both ironclads, and killed one of the vindicators.

Unfortunately for him it was no where near enough. The remaining 2 vindicators fired on the castellen putting 10 wounds onto him. I then killed the gallent with my remaining shooting. This left him his castellen and armiger, with the castellen at 16 wounds. He tried to do some more damage and killed the other ironclad and put some wounds on another vindicator but it wasnt enough. My next turn i killed the castellen with my 2 venerables that had been sitting on my objective playing long range fire support and he called it.



2nd game was vs a imperial soup list with a friend of mine that I play all the time.

He had 2 salamander batallions and a guard supreme command detachment.

His list specifically had a smash captain, a leiutenant, a smash captain on bike, a librarian on bike, 5 x 5 man tacticals each with a missile launcher and 4 with combi plasmas, a 5 man sniper scout squad, 3 leman russes with heavy bolters / battle cannons and baneblade varient that had some soet of 3d6 shot super battlecannon. The guard were catachan for reroll shots.

Mission was the 5th mission from ca. I went first again and focused on holding 2 objectives in my deployment zone. Shooting i killed one of the 5 man salamander squads with the vindicators, killed a few scouts, and put 8 wounds on one of the command tanks. All and all pretty ineffective.

Unfortunately for my friend he was very worried about the trip vindicator strat so he focused dramatically on them. He killed one and killed a bunch of scouts.

Turn 2 i kept the preasure on. I killed the weakened commander, put 10 wounds onto the baneblade, and killed one of his smash captains that became out of positioned and i lit up with a massive amount of bolter fire (I think i ended up shooting 52 bolter shots at him getting full rerolls with them). I ended up shooting him off of one of his own objectives.

His turn he ended up blowing the other 2 vindicators and killing the contemptor dreadnought.

My 3rd and final turn i moved my assault units (everything except the 2 venerable dreads and 2 crusaders on my objectives) onto his flank with the baneblade and 7 salamander tacticals onto that flanks. I dropped my pod into his deployment zone on that flank as well. I moved onto his objective, killed his baneblade, and he called it. I still had way too much on the table but he was down to his 2 bike charecters, a 5 man salamander team, and 2 of the russes.


Overall i am pretty happy with the army and how its working. I think the contemptor needs to go.... it just gets targeted and blinked before a tech marike can even try and heal it..... though that could be a case of my opponents know i like it so.... yeah. If i do remove it i can drop the normal tech marine for another chr, maybe a leiutenant or emporers champion.... advice welcomed.

It's actually a good thing they're going after the Contemptor as it's your distraction.

Also it's funky how Black Templars make one of the better gun lines.

Azuza001 wrote:




I deployed 2 of my 5 man scout squads in the center 9" away from my opponents line and on the center objective, then spread out covering my flanks. 3rd scout squad and 2 venerable dreads sat on my own objective.

I went first, moved my scouts up advancing them and leaving the center objective putting all 10 scouts out in a line 2" away from his gallant and keeper of secrets.

DO NOT DO THIS, if your opponent was more read up on the rules, they would realize that heroic intervention doesn't require you to have charged a unit, simply that a unit is within 3" of a character at the end of the charge phase. If the knight is a character (has to be for WLT or relics) it could've also heroically intervened. This meant that moving them within 2 inches could've actually given them ~ 5 inches of extra movement (2" heroic intervention, 3" consolidation after killing the scouts).

Always make sure its 3.1 inches away from a character that you don't want intervening.
Otherwise keep me updated on the linebreaker bombardment, I've been tempted to swap a knight errant out for them because linebreaker absolutely deletes certain tau/demon builds. Also keep in mind, linebreaker bombardment is NOT a shooting attack, it simply says you cannot shoot your demolisher cannons. This means that your vindicators can advance, smoke, AND be tied up in close combat and still activate linebreaker bombardment. It makes them great blockers against plaguebearer spam and the like.

Yeah linebreaker is pretty crucial.

Thanks for the 3.1" tip. I had not even considered that.

Yeah the advance, pop smoke, and strat trick works really well. I used it in both games and its terrific.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why would you not trade autolaunchers for frag launchers? 2d6 str 4 shots at 18" range is totally worth 8 points. IMO its also worth it to upgrade the storm bolters to frag launchers. Then you are dumping 4d6 str 4 on something. For 12 points you will be doing 14 shots str 4 instead of 4 shots. For 12 points. Totally worth. Sometimes youll roll hot to and get 20+ shots. When your rerolling all hits and 1's to wound. That is a whole infantry unit destroyed.

Also...I think a standard LT is probably better. You save a fair amount of points plus you can give him reasonable gear if you want...like a jump pack TH SS. Im assuming your LT is taking your relic as well. So A chainsword and SS and jump pack is probably your best build. Then give him teeth of tera. Or you can take the crimson fist power fist which is quite good. In order to make these changes youd probably need to take a TLHB on a repulsar

Just a small thing an LT can not be given a Storm Shield because GW reasons.
Captains can while gaining a 3++ instead of a 4++ ie very little but the CC HQ without an invulnerable save can't take the storm shield.
Libratians also can't take them for reasons.

SW libbies get an invuln. Kinda the theme of SW. And they STILL don't perform, really.

Index terminator libbies can take a SS for most marine flavors IIRC. I think Deathwatch are the only ones who cant make use of that particular loadout for whatever reason.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why would you not trade autolaunchers for frag launchers? 2d6 str 4 shots at 18" range is totally worth 8 points. IMO its also worth it to upgrade the storm bolters to frag launchers. Then you are dumping 4d6 str 4 on something. For 12 points you will be doing 14 shots str 4 instead of 4 shots. For 12 points. Totally worth. Sometimes youll roll hot to and get 20+ shots. When your rerolling all hits and 1's to wound. That is a whole infantry unit destroyed.

Also...I think a standard LT is probably better. You save a fair amount of points plus you can give him reasonable gear if you want...like a jump pack TH SS. Im assuming your LT is taking your relic as well. So A chainsword and SS and jump pack is probably your best build. Then give him teeth of tera. Or you can take the crimson fist power fist which is quite good. In order to make these changes youd probably need to take a TLHB on a repulsar

Just a small thing an LT can not be given a Storm Shield because GW reasons.
Captains can while gaining a 3++ instead of a 4++ ie very little but the CC HQ without an invulnerable save can't take the storm shield.
Libratians also can't take them for reasons.

Man that is lame. So glad I play ultras so I don't even have to deal with LT.

Consider putting your LTs or libbies in the armor indomitus. It makes them way more survivable. I have a jump-pack librarian and the things that he has survived with a 2+/3++ is absurd. I always end up free-buying the Shield eternal, and then using a cp to buy the AI. A shield eternal captain can take a point blank riptide and reliably live through it.

So now I am torn. I had slighyly modified my list to get a leutinant in in place of the tech marine on foot without loosing the contemptor but now i have picked up 2 thunderfire cannons and i REALLY want to find a way to put them into my list. Unfortunately i dont see a way of doing so without dropping the contemptor.

Here is my current idea.


++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [134 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [12CP]

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 95pts]: Bolt pistol, Power axe, Storm of Fire, The Crusader's Helm, Twin boltgun, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 60pts]
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Techmarine on Bike [6 PL, 76pts]: Boltgun, Power lance, Servo-arm, The Primarch's Wrath, Twin boltgun

+ Troops +

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Initiate
. Sword Brother: Boltgun, Chainsword

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Initiate
. Sword Brother: Boltgun, Chainsword

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Initiate
. Sword Brother: Boltgun, Chainsword

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

+ Elites +

Ironclad Dreadnought [8 PL, 132pts]: Dreadnought chainfist, Heavy flamer, Hurricane bolter

Ironclad Dreadnought [8 PL, 124pts]: Dreadnought chainfist, Meltagun
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 146pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 140pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Boltgun, Twin boltgun
. 2x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 2x Twin boltgun

Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Boltgun, Twin boltgun
. 2x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 2x Twin boltgun

Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Grav-chute
. Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Grav-chute

+ Heavy Support +

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner
. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner
. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [134 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


I had to drop the smash captain down to fit the leiutenant in. In my first 2 games he never got into combat as i was using him as a tactical reserve type of unit (keeping him within 9" of as much as possible while staying a threat if anything did break through my dreadnaughts/ vindicator line). But i am not sure i am happy with this list.

Drop pod is there for late game objective grabbing btw. Having a 5 man crusader squad that can grab something t3 with the pod could come in useful, but i may drop that and just upgrade everything else with the 65 pts..... choices....

Have you considered Scout Bikers for the Cluster Mine stratagems? How important is the Black Templars CT in this list? You could make it a Crimson Fists list and use 2 CPs to take the Liberator Strike Force and Field Commander Stratagem - this would give your Lt the Expert Instructor WT - 9" reroll 1s to hit. You also get access to the relic power fist that does flat 3dmg without -1 to hit for your captain. Could be something to consider.

The ct isnt that important thats true, but the stratagem is pure gold. I deploy my scouts up front so even t1 i can be garunteed to be in psycic deny range. Denying that farseer guide or fortune, or stopping that warp time deamon prince, or saying no to null zone... these things have swung the game into my favor t1 numerous times, enough that i am sold on the army as valuable to any marine player.

I had not considered scout bikers, i will take a look at them and see how they look. Thanks for the advice!

What's the deal with the new Blood Ravens?
Take it or leave it?

 wuestenfux wrote:
What's the deal with the new Blood Ravens?
Take it or leave it?

You can make it work if you like T4 2W models, Gabe, and Marine psykers, but I wouldn't go and repaint your collection to red and bone based on those rules just yet. They're cool, and there's some tactica that can help you make the best of the rules, but they aren't going to win you games on their own. There are stronger, more competitive options if what you're looking for is the best competitive edge.

It seems like the blood ravens few advantages are against....

1. Overcharged plasma - there is a lot of that out there and those t4 2w terminators / primaris will really enjoy that 2's dont pop them.

2. Blood angles smash captains - their +1 to wound (wounding on 2's) with so many of their weapons like power axes and thunder hammers wont hurt on 2's now.

3. Knights in cc - its not much but knights will not put as many wounds onto your units.


Having said all that, the tactic isnt much help. I agree, its not enough to go out and repaint your models. I kind of like the master librarian strat though. Take a phobos librarian with the tomb and that strat, now he knows 4 powers and can cast 3 with access to 2 different disciplines. That could be tactically useful if nothing else.

Azuza001 wrote:
It seems like the blood ravens few advantages are against....

1. Overcharged plasma - there is a lot of that out there and those t4 2w terminators / primaris will really enjoy that 2's dont pop them.

2. Blood angles smash captains - their +1 to wound (wounding on 2's) with so many of their weapons like power axes and thunder hammers wont hurt on 2's now.

3. Knights in cc - its not much but knights will not put as many wounds onto your units.


Having said all that, the tactic isnt much help. I agree, its not enough to go out and repaint your models. I kind of like the master librarian strat though. Take a phobos librarian with the tomb and that strat, now he knows 4 powers and can cast 3 with access to 2 different disciplines. That could be tactically useful if nothing else.

Great breakdown, but I think an important thing to keep in mind is that this is only one part of the tactic - the psychic reroll is a fantastic bonus as well, but only if you're making use of psykers. I'd suggest at least one Vanguard Librarian as their powers are a bit more worthwhile.

Lemondish wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
It seems like the blood ravens few advantages are against....

1. Overcharged plasma - there is a lot of that out there and those t4 2w terminators / primaris will really enjoy that 2's dont pop them.

2. Blood angles smash captains - their +1 to wound (wounding on 2's) with so many of their weapons like power axes and thunder hammers wont hurt on 2's now.

3. Knights in cc - its not much but knights will not put as many wounds onto your units.


Having said all that, the tactic isnt much help. I agree, its not enough to go out and repaint your models. I kind of like the master librarian strat though. Take a phobos librarian with the tomb and that strat, now he knows 4 powers and can cast 3 with access to 2 different disciplines. That could be tactically useful if nothing else.

Great breakdown, but I think an important thing to keep in mind is that this is only one part of the tactic - the psychic reroll is a fantastic bonus as well, but only if you're making use of psykers. I'd suggest at least one Vanguard Librarian as their powers are a bit more worthwhile.

Tiggy gets a flat reroll on his powers for free. Plus an amazing -1 to to hit ability every turn. These rules are straight bunk for blood ravens.

Not everybody plays Ultramarines.

 Sir Fred wrote:
Not everybody plays Ultramarines.

Whats to stop you from using ultra marine rules or Gk rules to represent your blood ravens? For your chapter master just sub calgers rules and for your libby just use tiggy. You'll have a better army as a result. The name they ascribe to the rules doesn't mean much. You give your army it's character by painting it and playing it.

What if you play another chapter like RG?

 Sir Fred wrote:
What if you play another chapter like RG?

Then play raven guard or raptors. They even have their own special characters. I'm just saying if you want a good libby - ultras already do that better. that isn't a great design. Like maybe if he could cast 3 powers or had a unique power it would be a cool army choice. Pick the chapter tactic that benifits you the most is what I am saying. It doesn't matter what color you dudes are. Special characters and relics have to match up BUT you can also just use those models and call them whatever you want in hashtags.

Speaking of debating changing chapters, I've been more than a little tempted to try my marines as Crimson Fists instead of RG. I think the -1 to be hit is better, but so many times it's either within 12" or due to prepping for better armies with -1 to hits, my opponent can deal with it fine anyways. My army is pretty MSU already, I'd get +1 to hit on my own rolls pretty often along with the bolter and character targeting strats being way more useful than the nerfed RG one. Main thing stopping me is I feel like I should get some Centurion Devs or something to really leverage it and I'm trying to avoid buying any new models until the next batch of releases.

Blood Ravens are definatly niche, but I think are a solid choice if you're looking to play lots of libbies. with blood ravens rules you can have 2 libby's each knowing 4 spells (make one your cheif libby give the other a tome of Malchador) each re-rolling any ones. Xenomancer's point about using Tiggy isn't 100% wrong but it also misses that tiggy is only one model. if you want to run multiple librarians Blood Ravens is better by far.

Crimson fist are just cool anyways. That was the first army I played. Pedro is a great character and their new rules are pretty good. Bike squads can really kill some infantry and just need a standard captain to reroll everything. Then Pedro can march up the middle of the table with redeemptors (great CC ability for them and likely will get +1 to hit shooting at preferred targets) and whatever else you decide. Maybe Inceptors. Basically anything MSU that can hit hard in small units crimson fist is just amazing.

I use HB cents in my ultramarines and they are pretty great. You are basically forced to take a storm raven or LR to protect them if you don't go first. That really hurts...So unfortunately I think ultras are best for the cents. You get the reroll all wounds (amazing with HB and hurricanes) Plus you also buff the crusders weapons which are also great with reroll wounds.

I'd probably do something like 9 bikes in 3 squads with a biker smash captain (givem all plasmas) maybe even add an attack bike on each unit for some additional wounds. Load up on redemptor dreads and plasma inceptors. Min troops.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Blood Ravens are definatly niche, but I think are a solid choice if you're looking to play lots of libbies. with blood ravens rules you can have 2 libby's each knowing 4 spells (make one your cheif libby give the other a tome of Malchador) each re-rolling any ones. Xenomancer's point about using Tiggy isn't 100% wrong but it also misses that tiggy is only one model. if you want to run multiple librarians Blood Ravens is better by far.

To me libbies already feel like a tax. Might of heros is nice but nullzone is very situational I usually take the reroll charges for my 3rd power but that is because I have Gman. True the phobos liby is a little better and you have the nullzone shunt combo you can pull off but that is a serious investment. You would also need to line that up with a lot of ap-3 ap-4 firepower. So the rest of your list is decided for you. It's gotta be Repulsor executioners/ plasma devs / and quad las mortis contemptors. Could be fun I guess. Has anyone tried anything like that yet with the blood ravens?

So i played rounds 3 and 4 with my templars today, went 4 and 0 with them at the tournament!

List was pretty much the same as before, but i dropped the drop pod and contemptor to fit in 2 thunderfire cannons.

I learned a lot even in winning today. 1st game was vs cawl ad mech with the guy running 3 of the new vehicles in full tank mode. I won because i played the mission and my 3 vindicators just would not get out of the way, instead staying around long after they should have died. He didnt kill the 3rd one until round 5, it took him that long! T8 can not be ignored! Lol.

2nd was vs a mecha ork army running a morkanaught, a gorganaught, 2 defdreads, 4 killa kans, 15 lootas, and 60 grots. He had a bunch of ork characters as well. Mission was narrow the search. I deployed first but deployed with the plan to let him go 1st because scoring on that mission is easier if your 2nd player.

I went 2nd, survived his inital onslaught losing 1 vindicator and 2 venerable dreads, then killed 80% of the grots turn 1 along with a def dread, and the lootas. Turn 2 he killed a 2nd vindicator and my bikes. My turn 2 i killed the kans, the other dread, and most everything else that was small and squishy.

From there we went back and forth, but in the end i won by 1 vp. He definatly had me almost tabled, i was down to a thunderfire cannon, the tech marine gunner, a scout, and my warlord, but end of 6 i was ahead 2 vp. Only way for him to win was if we went to round 7 and he killed my warlord. That wasnt going to happen though thanks to chr rules and the fact that my bike lord moves 20" to get away.



So yeah, not exactly happy with my list though the results were good enough. I think the list needs better counter punch available to it, slowing enemy advancment with scouts and vindicators work, as does artillery bombardment onto them from long range, but once my delaying actions have run out i am finding i have nothing that i am willing to throw away to counter attack and push the enemy back from my gunlines. Any thoughts on what units can do this well?

Sounds like the list did very well!! Good job.

Recently got back from my first GT, slaughterfest. (Would HIGHLY recommend, going back next year for sure). Went 3-3 when coming up against some very tough opponents while using the following list.


The good thing was that every game I lost, I could've won had I played better. I had the tools to deal with the situation but made some critical misplays that put me in a bad position when the list is all about positioning. If anybody is interested I could do some write-ups on matchups.

Nice work Vilehydra. It looks like a fun and fast list to play, a definite advantage in tournaments. I'm definitely curious to know what armies you played against and what caused you trouble.