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2019/08/01 12:53:46
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Congrats as well vilehydra! Thats a very interesting list for sure, all that melta! Lol.
I too would be interested in a write up. I also have some questions about your list.
I see 2 venerable dreads there, were the captain and leiutenant there to provide them rerolls while vulcan moved with the troops in the rhinos?
Do you think having played the games that dropping the venerables for 2 armiger warglaives may have been a better option? You get as much anti tank, but more mobile weapons platforms for the 164 vs 140 pts plus would give the knights actual household traits. (Dont get me wrong, i love my dakka venerables!).
How did you get around the limited range of all that melta? I am sure some of those rhinos went pop before they were in range to drop their cargo off.
2019/08/01 22:24:03
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Thanks for the interest, here were the matchups (best of my recollection) all of these were ITC btw.
I always spent a CP to give my librarian Armor Indomitus
I always gave the terminator captain imperiums sword WLT (+1A on charge, reroll charges) and the shield eternal as my free relic
Rhino Config was always:
2 x 5 tacs in a rhino
2 x 5 tacs in a rhino
1 x 5 sternguard + LT and vulkan in the last rhino
Game 1: 1 Valiant, 1 Preceptor, 1 Crusader, and 3 warglaives. - Win
Spoiler:
ITC mission 2. Vanguard Deployment
He chose to give the valiant 2+/4++ vs shooting with relic/WLT
I gave my knight the relic thermal cannon and 4++. Librarian took Nullzone and MoH
This one was a slaughter, I place my scouts 9 inches away from his deployment zone and the rhinos in cover. Knight and vendreads playing the 48 inch range game against the valiant and preceptor. I end up getting first turn and moving my scouts 3.1 inches away from his knights, blocking all movement. I kill a warglaive with a venerable and strip 10 wounds off of the valiant. On his turn due to cover and move blocking, he was unable to do anything but kill the scouts.
Turn 2 the librarian null-zones the valiant and a warglaive, 4 meltaguns in vulkans re-roll aura kill the valiant. Both warglaives and the preceptor are finished off by the other tacs, sterns, dreads, and my knight.
The crusader fires back and kills some marines. He is then tabled Turn 3
My list was ready to roll against Chaos knights, this was a prime match-up. Scouts are able to block movement, even if I go second. The rhinos soak gat cannon shots and the marines carry enough melta that even if nullzone doesn't go off I can kill a knight a turn. Combined with a MoH thunderhammer captain and the LT I have a serious counterpunch to CC knights out. Ven dreads put out incredibly reliable damage (3 shots on 2's rerolling a miss, then a reroll for the wound makes them nasty to put wounds through on knights)
I will admit that the relic thermal rolled hot this game, stripped something like 24 wounds over two rounds off of the knights
Game 2: Abbadon, 120ish Cultist, 1x3 Oblits, Ahriman, 1k DP, 1K sorcerer, 2 bloodletter squads, bloodmaster, Exalted Champion - Loss
Spoiler:
ITC mission 4: Pointed short edge deployment (forget the name)
He gave his bloodmaster the crimson crown relic (which was terrifying) and the exalted champion the teeth of ghorvex.
Librarian had the same loadout as last match, the knight had an extra CC attack WLT and the paragon gauntlet.
My first mistake here was at the beginning of the game. I chose to go first when I absolutely should've chosen to go second. I would've had better engagement ranges and would've had to spend less time using my rhinos to screen out my backfield.
1st turn I charge some scouts into the cultist in an attempt to tie up his oblits. I get there but didn't realize his oblits rerolled all failed hits and wounds due to a two nearby characters. Scouts ended up killing some cultist and then getting kersplatted. Not the best trade, it would've been better to just dull his movement.
He moves forwards, buffing the high hell out of his oblits, but my libby denied warptime and they were unable to get to my knight. Instead they just wasted my rhino but had to use VoTlW and Endless cacophony alongside the cp that gives them all 4 marks. He also cast flickering flame on them, giving them a total of +2 to wound. The crimson crown relic allows another hit for any wound of 6+, which with +2 makes it every 4+ is an additional shot. The rhino died, but forced him to use endless cacophony becuase he rolled 1 on the random damage for the oblits.
2nd Turn I move up and disembark the two more forward rhino (another mistake here, all the marine squads need to be committed to killing cultist. Aggregate fire is critical) the knight moved up after being doombolted the previous turn (half speed) the sternguard hopped out with vulkan. Libby got both nullzone and MoH off (nullzone didnt matter because the oblits where in cover. So the -4 was a 5+/5++ either way) The oblits lose one model to the thermal cannon and melta-guns (which was far fewer then I had expected). This is where I made a rookie mistake that cost me the game. I shot a group of cultists on the right flank out of range of the 3/5 of the sternguard. Had I not done that, the entire squad would've probably died(Flamecraft strat for +1 to wound, with vulkan re-rolls. So 3d6 wounding on 2's, 2d6 killing on 2's 6 -1 to hit bolt shots and all the aggregate fire of the dreadnoughts/other marine squads) If I had killed (or just reduce enough off the screen to move my knight through) the knight would've been able to kill the tzeentch DP, and probably ahriman. Abbadon would've also been vulnerable, but killing his psychic support was way more important.
Also my TH captain came down, made his charge on the oblits. Killed them and consolidated into the bloodmaster, took 2 damage total. I then chose to fight again, piled into the exalted champion as well (both had been declared as charge targets) and split 3/3 attacks. I reduced both down to 1 wound - he used a cp reroll on the champion and saved a hit on a 6+ ended up killing my captain, at which point he fought AGAIN and killed both of the characters. Don't know if it was worth the 5 CP but it felt like it.
The rest of the game was him using magic boxes, tri-pointing, and smiting me out to remove my ability to effectively fight against him. Didn't get tabled but I had no ability to control the board after I lost the fight for the center.
2 Big mistakes:
1: Going first against an army like this probably was a 10 point swing in itself (holding more objectives over the course of 5 turns) and I had a poor engagement range
2: Doing the rookie mistake of shooting my sternguard out of range
This guy also ended up going top table, so the fact that I could've won if I had just broken that flank and got to his juicy characters is not bad IMO.
He gave his Vexillus Magnifica (the -1 to hit aura) the deny +1 relic which came in clutch
I gave my knight the 4++ and relic thermal cannon
I went second (going 1'st would've been really useful here). Thanks to cover I forced his telemons to move to shoot at might knight. Ended up taking 6 damage total from all the fire. He killed a ven-dread which made me sad first turn.
During my first turn I don't really accomplish anything, my goal is to kill as many grav tanks as possible. I don't get any which is fine, My army does most of its damage second turn. Game losing mistake here, I could'be just disembarked my troops into ruins. Not shooting anything but being completely safe from his shooting and owning more objectives. Instead I advanced the rhinos are far forward as I could while staying near ruins and smoking
His turn two he moves up super aggressively as well and kills out two rhinos, and two full squads of meltas which really hurt. My turn 2 I dove aggressively into his forward caladius and pallas tanks in the center. He ended up denying my nullzone, which hurt a lot (5++ is way better then no ++ against melta :( ). The knight was able to charge one pallas on the far left and kill it. All the melta and +1 to wound flamers were able to drop another pallas and calladius in the center. Wound a second caladius which the LT finished of with his thunderhammer. My TH captain failed to make his charge to tie down a Telemon. Killing 4 grav tanks in a turn was a big turn around but wasn't enough in the end. The Telemons killed my knight, and I was unable to kill the last two grav tanks which ended up wrecking my army over the course of the game.
Other points of note, my librarian survived a round of combat with Trajan thanks to the armor indomitus, left and tried to smite the vexilus (which he denied) then nullzoned him and shot him in the face with a melta, so that was pretty neat. Vulkan then got two tapped in the jaw by Trajans boltweapon as I rolled two 1's.
2 Mistakes:
1st Not LOS blocking ruins against a vehicle heavy army
2nd Not respecting the insane damage output that these tanks put out despite the relatively low RoF
I'll get to the other 3 later, but to answer some questions.
Salamander Ven Dreads don't require buff support for the most part. Plop them in cover with a good firing lane and just throw shots down every turn. The venerables also serve as anti-flyer. -1/-2 to hit does mitigate a lot of shooting effectiveness, but they still hit well and hard against those targets. They also tend to hold any objectives on my side of the board because I have nothing left to keep behind. If I was going to drop them it would be for helverins, not warglaives. The characters are all for buffing marines and being incredibly aggro. Without MW spam it can be super difficult to remove a MoH buffed terminator captain with the shield eternal. Vulkan and the Libby also both have 2+/3++, making them tough nuts to crack as well.
Rhinos, especially when supported by a knight are incredibly resilient. Most things that kill rhinos efficiently don't kill marines efficiently and vice versa. The only exception I ran into was the custodes player throwing all those hard hitting high AP weapons. Most of the time, I did not lose a rhino till turn two or three. By which point they have already unloaded. Avengers GatCannons kill 4 marines on average, against a rhino they do 4 damage. Same math for a overcharged HBC from riptides. After they disembark the marines they can soak overwatch, block avenues, and provide some supplemental anti-infantry fire.
Also, as for getting in range of melta. When disembarking from a transport, just remember that each model must be PARTIALLY within 3" of the transport. Meaning that you can get about an additional 4" of threat coming out of the rhino. Rhinos generally advance turn 1 and pop smoke, opponents generally target the knight (which is the cheapest ranged variant). In ITC you can't afford to lose board control and people know that, generally requiring some forward board deployment.
2019/08/02 02:20:45
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Greetings loyalists. I have a bro who is having hell against a tournament crons list. Something like 0-6 so far. He runs various SM units, from imperial fists mostly and usually heavy on TFCs and devs. The crons list also varies but always features 3 doom arks then typically either massed tesla immortals or bikes and destroyers, salt scarabs. Sometimes triple croissants feature as well.
What tools do space marines have against this enemy?
2019/08/03 07:44:34
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Great to hear about Salamanders, I've been seriously thinking about adding a small detachment of them (I keep adding Deathwatch vets and painting them as Salamanders). I'm just surprised I don't see them more often as their trait looks somewhat decent compared to others.
I agree with the ven dreads too (except mine in Deathwatch). Played a tourny 3 weeks ago and never lost a single wound off a dread, weirdly.
2019/08/03 18:32:17
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The problem with the Salamander trait is that you already need to cluster around your HQ units to make them remotely worth anything, which brings to the point that you only get one reroll on hitting or wounding when you're not near them. Not exactly outstanding when I can get a bunch of other stuff instead. I'd even rather have Iron Hands and they're awful.
Making the unit only slightly less reliant does nothing for one model when it's the whole unit you need to be concerned about. At most you should only do Devastator squads with two Heavies and that's it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/04 13:36:56
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
So with all the new pics released what are everyone's thoughts?
An infiltration dread sounds cool but idk, looks equipped with 4 heavy stubbers and a heavy bolter pistol to me (wtf is with marines using stubbers all of a sudden? Marines use bolters, guardsmen use stubbers....). The rhino is cool.
As for primaris tib and primarus khan.... i dont want to see all the chrs get that treatment. Shrike doesnt need to be a primarus. Neither does logan or azreal.
Finally, the new codex + chapter supplements... i am happy to see that but i am afraid. Those supplements better be cheap, or your looking at a lot of $$$$$ there.
2019/08/04 14:14:01
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The dread seems neat, and infiltrating something punchy is pretty cool. Maybe it will get some weapon options to swap out the stubbers for something else.
The main thing I'm waiting on is the las fusils. Primaris line is really missing some anti-tank punch.
The Impulsor looks like a straight up gi-joe toy, with really awkward weapon mounts. Hopefully it can be converted into something less dumb looking.
The whole vehicle aesthetic for Primaris concerns me....so ugly. As always, it will come down to points. So much of the line is still overcosted, hopefully this will be addressed in the codex.
Oh, and I also cannot stand this abundance of stubbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/04 14:25:27
2019/08/04 14:55:59
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The preview video has artwork of the Impulsor with some sort of misslile pod turret (icarus launcher?), so at least it will have other options.
In the brief turnaround, it also doesn't really seem to have a transport compartment? It's more of a flatbed deck on the back. Maaaaaaybe open topped? Bring firing ports back? That sure would change the game a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/04 14:59:40
McGibs wrote: The preview video has artwork of the Impulsor with some sort of misslile pod turret (icarus launcher?), so at least it will have other options.
In the brief turnaround, it also doesn't really seem to have a transport compartment? It's more of a flatbed deck on the back. Maaaaaaybe open topped? Bring firing ports back? That sure would change the game a lot.
All aboard the hellblaster buggy!
2019/08/04 23:05:00
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The problem with the Salamander trait is that you already need to cluster around your HQ units to make them remotely worth anything, which brings to the point that you only get one reroll on hitting or wounding when you're not near them. Not exactly outstanding when I can get a bunch of other stuff instead. I'd even rather have Iron Hands and they're awful.
Making the unit only slightly less reliant does nothing for one model when it's the whole unit you need to be concerned about. At most you should only do Devastator squads with two Heavies and that's it.
We've discussed this before, and at this point we're just going to agree to disagree. I've had good success with Salamanders, going 3-3 in my first GT against some pretty tough match-ups ran by some tough players. Do salamanders require a different approach to building a list? Absolutely, but the CT can be leveraged more than any other CTIMO.
That being said, back to finish the Slaughterfest Write-Up
Game 4 - Triptide with ATS/Velocity Trackers, 2 Cyclic Ion commanders, Darkstrider, cadre fireblade, ethereal, 28 shield drones, 4 marker drones mixed in, 2 devilfish (w/ gundrones), 20 breachers, and 5 firewarriors, 3 sacea marksmen. - Win
Spoiler:
ITC mission 1, pointed short-edge deployment
He gave his cadre fire-blade through unity devastation and the puretide
I gave my knight 2+ armor and land-strider.
I deploy as far forward as cover allows, scouts not being super-useful this game I relegate them to the engineers secondary, he deploys out on his left flank of the deployment, securing an avenue of fire on an open road for his riptides. I deploy my knight to receive cover, effectively giving him a 1+ save.
Despite finishing my deployment first, he goes first.
Turn 1 despite him popping C&C node on one of his riptides, due to some poor rolls and misdeployment on the firesight for markerlight support, He manages to bring down one rhino down to two wounds with ALL of the broadsides. He moves both of his breacher-fish forward behind to try and grab some board control.
My Turn I move the knight forward, disembarking Vulkans rhino and the wounded rhino. Manage to destroy his center devilfish (which had dark-strider in it) and put the other down to two wounds remaining. Was able to charge the forcibly disembarked breachers/Darkstrider and nearby firewarrors with vulkan, the LT, and the sternguard. Ended up wiping out the breachers and darkstrider, killing and tying down a couple firewarriors.
His second turn he disembarks the other breachers close to my knight and some tacs fires everything into the knight and brings it down to 13ish wounds (2+ armor is really good here, definitely saved several wounds from SMS) and kills a couple sternguard and tacs. Not much else happens.
My Turn 2 I kill the remaining devilfish and start forcing him to take drone saves, trying to kill as many as I can through small arms focusing the drones, and heavy weapons targeting his broadsides or exposed commanders. I Charge my knight and some tacs into the forward breachers. Kill the breachers, and consolidate towards the riptides so that I am at this point within 3 inches of the riptides. TH Captain comes down trying to get an exposed charge on the sacea marksmen but fails (Tau drones can't save for sacea sept) Takes two damage for his trouble.
His turn 3. He's out of CP, so no focus fire, and he puts all of his riptide fire into the knight. He kills it by one failed save, that I used a CP re-roll to succeed. At this point he concedes because he couldn't kill the knight and I would've heroically intervened into all three of his riptides, meaning that next turn I could have charged several units with no real FtGG penalty and wiped him. Even if the knight did die, I still had a pretty commanding VP lead because of the bonus/board control.
Game 5 - Triptide with ATS/Target lock, 1 HYMP broadside squad, Shadowsun, 2 x cadre fireblade, 3x5 firewarriors, 33 shield drones - Win
Spoiler:
Mission 4 Circle-quarter deployment
Same relic loadout as last time
I finished deploying first, still lost the roll off, then he gave me first turn so I could approach his optimal engagement range.
He castled up on a two story building, placing his broadsides at the top with a 6 man drone right beneath them, triptides and drone support holding the center.
I deployed around a center two story building. Two rhinos on my south side, one on the north. Knight At the opposing corner out of range of his broadsides. Dreadnoughts deployed on objectives with scouts as engineers.
I advanced the rhinos and put the knight into cover, the rhinos pop smoke and vulkans rhino gets MoH for the additional toughness.
His turn he pops vulkans rhino, forcing his crew to disembark into the ruins, the sternguard are wittled down to to combi-flamers.
My turn I advance my knight, disembark all remaining squads and deployed the TH captain. I use any shooting I can to wittle down as many drones. I score a lucky hit with one of the vendreads las-cannons and completely Ice a broadside. Big squads and no ethereal mean I can force him to make morals to bypass standard drone survivability. I charge the firewarriors with marines, kill one squad and tri-point the two on opposing flanks. The knight fulltilts and murders one of the squads in CC and is right in the face of the opponent.
His turn 2 he focuses all of his fire power into the knight, brings it low but not killing it. He also dives with a riptide to kill my librarian so I can't nullzone out his riptides/drones. He does kill the kill the librarian (only had two wounds left after some previous skirmish fire) but exposes a riptide with no drone support. In his combat phase I finished off both of the other fire-warriors, freeing two tac squads.
My Turn 3 I continue to whittle down any drones I can, and put some lasfire into the exposed riptide to bring it down (it does branched reactor for 18 shots And 3+ invuln). Vulkan hops back in cover, and charges the exposed riptide so he only gets overwatched by the SMS, the knight and the LT then follow suit and slaughter the riptide. One tac marine squad charges a single character, uses the distance to go up the building the broadsides are in and piles-in after they have fought to tie the broadsides down. That win-condition was achieved.
His turn 3 he kills my knight, he doesn't explode and I don't try to bring him back, but it soaks most of his firepower. He kills a couple marines here and there, but nothing to critical.
After this point, through aggregate fire and attrition on his drones I'm finally able to land solid lascannons and melta hits on his riptides. This goes on for a couple turns and I table him by turn 5 or 6
Game 6- Triple Croissants, 2x Triarch stalkers, 2x doomsday arks, 20 warriors, 15 immortals, 2x6 bike squads, a cryptek, and Imotek - Loss
Spoiler:
ITC missiion 6, Vanguard Strike
Knight has 2+/4++ configuration
Librarian takes MoH and Fury of the ancients (actually came in clutch)
He has the veil of darkness on the cryptek
I deploy the rhinos behind cover, the vendreads in non-LOS blocking cover, Knight in the open (not enough cover to block him out anywhere)
He deploys his ghost arcs and stalkers in the front line, engineer immortals in the back on an objective. Bikes were deployed on the wings.
Despite finishing my deployment first, he wins the roll off and goes first. He then wins because of it.
His first turn his dice were HOT. He uses Imoteks ability to do 4 MWs to the knight and then activates the +1 to hit strategem. He then fires his doomscythes and arks at the knight. It was one of those days I couldn't make a single 4++ on the knight 7 wounds went in and killed the knight. A dreadnought was also picked off and 20 warriors were teleported into my back corner and with MWBD were able to tie down a dreadnought and get into some scouts. I try to get the knight back up, spending 4 cp for a 75% chance, but it fails. The bikes have secured both flanking objectives
My turn 1 I disembark all of my marines in an attempt to kill the nightscythes and the warriors in my backline. I kill one nightscythe and bring another down to 1 wounds, but am unable to finish it off (almost killed it with a krak grenade, but he CP'd the save). My librarian MoH's vulkan and then shoves a melta gun into the crypteks face. I then charge the warriors with all of my characters and infantry squads. The characters all made it in (thankfully) but all three infantry squads rolled 2 inch charges when I needed 4. and because of that he had 3 warriors left over which basically kept my army in the back the entire game for an army that needs to exert some pressure, thats NOT good. I was able to tie down one of the triarchs with some forward magicboxed scouts.
His turn 2 he pops a couple rhinos, and kills a few marines here and there while also failing to kill my remaining dreadnought (lucky break). He spends 2cp(?) to reroll 1's on reanimation on his warriors stuck in my back line, and during his combat phase I kill his warriors down to a single model (which he got back by using that cp), but it still ties down the a scout and tac squad. The stalker is still tied down by the scouts, but he moved the other one forward.
My turn 2 I send vulkan and the sternguard to kill the bikes on one flank and leave 1 model with ONE wound remaining. I'm able to pistol off the last warrior with the squads in CC and kill off the non-engaged stalker. The wounded doomscythe is also killed, while the third was brought down to a couple of wounds, but wasn't killed. THC captain comes in and assist the scouts in tying down the stalker and tagging some immortals that came in to kill off the scouts in CC. That captain had 6 total rounds of combat, and he rolled about 15 2's, ngl that hurt a little.
His turn 3 he used his super wounded doomscythe to kill vulkan, he got 3 shots off of a d3, 1 hit on a 5+, 1 wound on a 2+, I failed my 3+ invuln, and he rolls a 5 to just instagib vulkan. He finishes off the rhino, and is able to disengage both his stalker and immortals at this point, but not out of heroic intervention range of the captain, who does so just to roll more 2's to hit.
At this point is was pretty clear I lost the game so I just made a play for the points I could get. Over the next several turns he was able to attrition down my marine squads with the DDA gauss fire and bike particle caster fire while I was able to kill a DDA. My Librarian was able to finish off the doom scythe, and between the LT and the Librarian they killed the bikes that vulkan didn't, and a DDA. Captain got tesla'd down as he went after the other DDA which was currently holding an OBJ. The problem was, he just held the board and was racking up primaries left and right.
The opponent didn't table me, by turn 6 I had two models left on the board (the libby and a single marine in cover) but it was a near thing.
Out of all of my games, this was the one that was most determined by some cold dice rolling. Losing first turn hurt the most here (might've been able to kill a doomscythe and tie down both stalkers with a full tilting knight) and have much more board control. Failing nearly every save my knight needed to make. My knight not getting back up. My captain missing more attacks then he hit. Vulkan rolling a 1 damage on the last bike instead of 2. Bad luck happens but compared to my other two losses this one had some just straight up bad dice rolls when my opponents were on fire.
He was still a pretty chill dude, so it was an enjoyable game despite the trashcan rolls.
Was a great GT though, and I'm definitely attending next year. Well, at least if they haven't squatted mini-marines by that point.
2019/08/04 23:21:00
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
so with the upcoming supplements does everything think it'll be time to spin out threads specific for each first founding legion as they get their own supplements, well keeping a space Marine thread for the generic suecessors?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/05 17:50:00
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The problem with the Salamander trait is that you already need to cluster around your HQ units to make them remotely worth anything, which brings to the point that you only get one reroll on hitting or wounding when you're not near them. Not exactly outstanding when I can get a bunch of other stuff instead. I'd even rather have Iron Hands and they're awful.
Making the unit only slightly less reliant does nothing for one model when it's the whole unit you need to be concerned about. At most you should only do Devastator squads with two Heavies and that's it.
We've discussed this before, and at this point we're just going to agree to disagree. I've had good success with Salamanders, going 3-3 in my first GT against some pretty tough match-ups ran by some tough players. Do salamanders require a different approach to building a list? Absolutely, but the CT can be leveraged more than any other CTIMO.
That being said, back to finish the Slaughterfest Write-Up
Game 4 - Triptide with ATS/Velocity Trackers, 2 Cyclic Ion commanders, Darkstrider, cadre fireblade, ethereal, 28 shield drones, 4 marker drones mixed in, 2 devilfish (w/ gundrones), 20 breachers, and 5 firewarriors, 3 sacea marksmen. - Win
Spoiler:
ITC mission 1, pointed short-edge deployment
He gave his cadre fire-blade through unity devastation and the puretide
I gave my knight 2+ armor and land-strider.
I deploy as far forward as cover allows, scouts not being super-useful this game I relegate them to the engineers secondary, he deploys out on his left flank of the deployment, securing an avenue of fire on an open road for his riptides. I deploy my knight to receive cover, effectively giving him a 1+ save.
Despite finishing my deployment first, he goes first.
Turn 1 despite him popping C&C node on one of his riptides, due to some poor rolls and misdeployment on the firesight for markerlight support, He manages to bring down one rhino down to two wounds with ALL of the broadsides. He moves both of his breacher-fish forward behind to try and grab some board control.
My Turn I move the knight forward, disembarking Vulkans rhino and the wounded rhino. Manage to destroy his center devilfish (which had dark-strider in it) and put the other down to two wounds remaining. Was able to charge the forcibly disembarked breachers/Darkstrider and nearby firewarrors with vulkan, the LT, and the sternguard. Ended up wiping out the breachers and darkstrider, killing and tying down a couple firewarriors.
His second turn he disembarks the other breachers close to my knight and some tacs fires everything into the knight and brings it down to 13ish wounds (2+ armor is really good here, definitely saved several wounds from SMS) and kills a couple sternguard and tacs. Not much else happens.
My Turn 2 I kill the remaining devilfish and start forcing him to take drone saves, trying to kill as many as I can through small arms focusing the drones, and heavy weapons targeting his broadsides or exposed commanders. I Charge my knight and some tacs into the forward breachers. Kill the breachers, and consolidate towards the riptides so that I am at this point within 3 inches of the riptides. TH Captain comes down trying to get an exposed charge on the sacea marksmen but fails (Tau drones can't save for sacea sept) Takes two damage for his trouble.
His turn 3. He's out of CP, so no focus fire, and he puts all of his riptide fire into the knight. He kills it by one failed save, that I used a CP re-roll to succeed. At this point he concedes because he couldn't kill the knight and I would've heroically intervened into all three of his riptides, meaning that next turn I could have charged several units with no real FtGG penalty and wiped him. Even if the knight did die, I still had a pretty commanding VP lead because of the bonus/board control.
Game 5 - Triptide with ATS/Target lock, 1 HYMP broadside squad, Shadowsun, 2 x cadre fireblade, 3x5 firewarriors, 33 shield drones - Win
Spoiler:
Mission 4 Circle-quarter deployment
Same relic loadout as last time
I finished deploying first, still lost the roll off, then he gave me first turn so I could approach his optimal engagement range.
He castled up on a two story building, placing his broadsides at the top with a 6 man drone right beneath them, triptides and drone support holding the center.
I deployed around a center two story building. Two rhinos on my south side, one on the north. Knight At the opposing corner out of range of his broadsides. Dreadnoughts deployed on objectives with scouts as engineers.
I advanced the rhinos and put the knight into cover, the rhinos pop smoke and vulkans rhino gets MoH for the additional toughness.
His turn he pops vulkans rhino, forcing his crew to disembark into the ruins, the sternguard are wittled down to to combi-flamers.
My turn I advance my knight, disembark all remaining squads and deployed the TH captain. I use any shooting I can to wittle down as many drones. I score a lucky hit with one of the vendreads las-cannons and completely Ice a broadside. Big squads and no ethereal mean I can force him to make morals to bypass standard drone survivability. I charge the firewarriors with marines, kill one squad and tri-point the two on opposing flanks. The knight fulltilts and murders one of the squads in CC and is right in the face of the opponent.
His turn 2 he focuses all of his fire power into the knight, brings it low but not killing it. He also dives with a riptide to kill my librarian so I can't nullzone out his riptides/drones. He does kill the kill the librarian (only had two wounds left after some previous skirmish fire) but exposes a riptide with no drone support. In his combat phase I finished off both of the other fire-warriors, freeing two tac squads.
My Turn 3 I continue to whittle down any drones I can, and put some lasfire into the exposed riptide to bring it down (it does branched reactor for 18 shots And 3+ invuln). Vulkan hops back in cover, and charges the exposed riptide so he only gets overwatched by the SMS, the knight and the LT then follow suit and slaughter the riptide. One tac marine squad charges a single character, uses the distance to go up the building the broadsides are in and piles-in after they have fought to tie the broadsides down. That win-condition was achieved.
His turn 3 he kills my knight, he doesn't explode and I don't try to bring him back, but it soaks most of his firepower. He kills a couple marines here and there, but nothing to critical.
After this point, through aggregate fire and attrition on his drones I'm finally able to land solid lascannons and melta hits on his riptides. This goes on for a couple turns and I table him by turn 5 or 6
Game 6- Triple Croissants, 2x Triarch stalkers, 2x doomsday arks, 20 warriors, 15 immortals, 2x6 bike squads, a cryptek, and Imotek - Loss
Spoiler:
ITC missiion 6, Vanguard Strike
Knight has 2+/4++ configuration
Librarian takes MoH and Fury of the ancients (actually came in clutch)
He has the veil of darkness on the cryptek
I deploy the rhinos behind cover, the vendreads in non-LOS blocking cover, Knight in the open (not enough cover to block him out anywhere)
He deploys his ghost arcs and stalkers in the front line, engineer immortals in the back on an objective. Bikes were deployed on the wings.
Despite finishing my deployment first, he wins the roll off and goes first. He then wins because of it.
His first turn his dice were HOT. He uses Imoteks ability to do 4 MWs to the knight and then activates the +1 to hit strategem. He then fires his doomscythes and arks at the knight. It was one of those days I couldn't make a single 4++ on the knight 7 wounds went in and killed the knight. A dreadnought was also picked off and 20 warriors were teleported into my back corner and with MWBD were able to tie down a dreadnought and get into some scouts. I try to get the knight back up, spending 4 cp for a 75% chance, but it fails. The bikes have secured both flanking objectives
My turn 1 I disembark all of my marines in an attempt to kill the nightscythes and the warriors in my backline. I kill one nightscythe and bring another down to 1 wounds, but am unable to finish it off (almost killed it with a krak grenade, but he CP'd the save). My librarian MoH's vulkan and then shoves a melta gun into the crypteks face. I then charge the warriors with all of my characters and infantry squads. The characters all made it in (thankfully) but all three infantry squads rolled 2 inch charges when I needed 4. and because of that he had 3 warriors left over which basically kept my army in the back the entire game for an army that needs to exert some pressure, thats NOT good. I was able to tie down one of the triarchs with some forward magicboxed scouts.
His turn 2 he pops a couple rhinos, and kills a few marines here and there while also failing to kill my remaining dreadnought (lucky break). He spends 2cp(?) to reroll 1's on reanimation on his warriors stuck in my back line, and during his combat phase I kill his warriors down to a single model (which he got back by using that cp), but it still ties down the a scout and tac squad. The stalker is still tied down by the scouts, but he moved the other one forward.
My turn 2 I send vulkan and the sternguard to kill the bikes on one flank and leave 1 model with ONE wound remaining. I'm able to pistol off the last warrior with the squads in CC and kill off the non-engaged stalker. The wounded doomscythe is also killed, while the third was brought down to a couple of wounds, but wasn't killed. THC captain comes in and assist the scouts in tying down the stalker and tagging some immortals that came in to kill off the scouts in CC. That captain had 6 total rounds of combat, and he rolled about 15 2's, ngl that hurt a little.
His turn 3 he used his super wounded doomscythe to kill vulkan, he got 3 shots off of a d3, 1 hit on a 5+, 1 wound on a 2+, I failed my 3+ invuln, and he rolls a 5 to just instagib vulkan. He finishes off the rhino, and is able to disengage both his stalker and immortals at this point, but not out of heroic intervention range of the captain, who does so just to roll more 2's to hit.
At this point is was pretty clear I lost the game so I just made a play for the points I could get. Over the next several turns he was able to attrition down my marine squads with the DDA gauss fire and bike particle caster fire while I was able to kill a DDA. My Librarian was able to finish off the doom scythe, and between the LT and the Librarian they killed the bikes that vulkan didn't, and a DDA. Captain got tesla'd down as he went after the other DDA which was currently holding an OBJ. The problem was, he just held the board and was racking up primaries left and right.
The opponent didn't table me, by turn 6 I had two models left on the board (the libby and a single marine in cover) but it was a near thing.
Out of all of my games, this was the one that was most determined by some cold dice rolling. Losing first turn hurt the most here (might've been able to kill a doomscythe and tie down both stalkers with a full tilting knight) and have much more board control. Failing nearly every save my knight needed to make. My knight not getting back up. My captain missing more attacks then he hit. Vulkan rolling a 1 damage on the last bike instead of 2. Bad luck happens but compared to my other two losses this one had some just straight up bad dice rolls when my opponents were on fire.
He was still a pretty chill dude, so it was an enjoyable game despite the trashcan rolls.
Was a great GT though, and I'm definitely attending next year. Well, at least if they haven't squatted mini-marines by that point.
Leveraged more than any other CT? Raven Guard and Iron Hands are flat durability and Ultramarines can shoot, charge, then eventually fall back and shoot again and charge.
That's a lot more you can do for that.
Also new Chapter Tactics were posted so I think we might need to just create a new thread to be honest with the new codex approaching.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/05 19:20:40
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I hope Ultras get some exclusive OP stratagems that make them playable. Cause right now. They are terrible.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/05 19:31:05
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Azuza001 wrote: You think so? Vehicles being able to retreat and still shoot seems pretty good to me, just the fact you cant stop the shooting is pretty interesting.
Agreed. And they still have G-man who probably won't change too much. If you want a Primarch + Parking lot, UMs are the way to go. But personally, I'm liking Salamanders as the perfect combo of offense/defense
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/05 19:45:57
Fists seem like they will be quite good if most armies get moved from -1 to hit to always in cover. Ignore all those and get 1/6 more shots on all bolters without spending the cp? Wonder if this is why they’ve decided to put stubbers on all the new vehicles instead of storm bolters/heavy bolters?
2019/08/05 20:42:24
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Azuza001 wrote: You think so? Vehicles being able to retreat and still shoot seems pretty good to me, just the fact you cant stop the shooting is pretty interesting.
All the primaris vehicals are deadnaughts had it already or had fly so could fall back and shoot at full BS now they got the -1 to hit nerf. Because apparently GW can check their own rule set.
That or Gman got some insane buff they need to counter.
2019/08/05 20:47:50
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Azuza001 wrote: You think so? Vehicles being able to retreat and still shoot seems pretty good to me, just the fact you cant stop the shooting is pretty interesting.
If they could do it and still hit on 3's or 4's yeah...it would be decent. They are gonna be hitting on 5's in most cases because vehicles hold heavy weapons and the ability gives you a -1. Trust me. I play ultras with redemptors a lot already. Falling back and hitting on 5's feels like a slap in the face.
Fists seem like they will be quite good if most armies get moved from -1 to hit to always in cover. Ignore all those and get 1/6 more shots on all bolters without spending the cp? Wonder if this is why they’ve decided to put stubbers on all the new vehicles instead of storm bolters/heavy bolters?
3 top tier army traits in 1 should be tempting. It's beyond tempting. It's auto include.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/05 20:48:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/05 20:50:39
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Azuza001 wrote: You think so? Vehicles being able to retreat and still shoot seems pretty good to me, just the fact you cant stop the shooting is pretty interesting.
All the primaris vehicals are deadnaughts had it already or had fly so could fall back and shoot at full BS now they got the -1 to hit nerf. Because apparently GW can check their own rule set.
That or Gman got some insane buff they need to counter.
We have some other stuff to come out. Stratagems...plus doctrines (we don't even know what these are). In 7th Ultras were the doctrine masters. It is possible that is why they chose to have such a weak chapter tactic without fixing it (because they were going to get better access to doctrines) Plus new Primaris tiggy. If Tiggy has a -to hit bubble instead of single target the army is playable and can still compete with the likes of ironhands and imperial fists.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/05 20:55:54
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Even granting its probably the best of them I don’t think IH is as powerful as you imply. 5+ overwatch from 1 min marine unit isn’t the same as Tau bulk overwatching. And preventing vehicle degradation on the couple usable marine vehicles with a chart isn’t the same as like a knight ignoring the chart.
2019/08/05 21:00:36
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Not everyone is using the new stuff. On top of that not all rules are written while only thinking of the new stuff. Gw even mentions land raiders with that trait. Not going to get into an argument here about it i just dont think its a bad trait. Its not going to get me to run ultramarines. But its not that bad, there is potential in that design.
2019/08/05 21:06:43
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
bort wrote: Even granting its probably the best of them I don’t think IH is as powerful as you imply. 5+ overwatch from 1 min marine unit isn’t the same as Tau bulk overwatching. And preventing vehicle degradation on the couple usable marine vehicles with a chart isn’t the same as like a knight ignoring the chart.
If your Tau players as using Overwatch like that they're not maximising that buff. As they can't overwatch once they have FTGG even if they are charged.
You intermingle the squads so they have to charge multiple squads you should be talking minimum 3 units they have to charge or they are getting like 2 dudes into combat.
A knight can flat ignore the chart with a strategum but people still take Hawkshroud Trait while it's far from broke it's still a worth while trait. Making vehicals fight at top tier untilk they have lost 3/4 of their wounds makes it much more difficult to spread damage around they have to esentially kill each unit to make it combat ineffective.
2019/08/05 21:11:32
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Leveraged more than any other CT? Raven Guard and Iron Hands are flat durability and Ultramarines can shoot, charge, then eventually fall back and shoot again and charge.
That's a lot more you can do for that.
Also new Chapter Tactics were posted so I think we might need to just create a new thread to be honest with the new codex approaching.
The way I think of it, there are armies that literally don't care about (old) RGCTs because they either are skirmishing within close range, are charge heavy, have ignore modifier traits, or a combination of the three. Same with UM CT (beyond the characters), Um only ever matters if A, I want to charge the unit, and B after charging the unit, don't tri-point the model. I was talking with a friend about building him out an UM army and had some fun ways to leverage it offensively. The difference between these and salamanders CT is that I will get serious value across the shooting and fighting phase for the entire game. It requires a higher investment into lower RoF weapons for sure, and that has it's own issues for sure. But no matter the match-up you can get good value from the salamander CT, and that was the old one as well. You keep this mindset of requiring to stand around the command core, and while that also adds value to even salamander marines, its not required and it allows you to flex your army all over the board which wins games.
That being said, people are talking about new CTs, Need link please!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/05 21:12:04
2019/08/05 21:13:18
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Azuza001 wrote: Not everyone is using the new stuff. On top of that not all rules are written while only thinking of the new stuff. Gw even mentions land raiders with that trait. Not going to get into an argument here about it i just dont think its a bad trait. Its not going to get me to run ultramarines. But its not that bad, there is potential in that design.
They mention the landraider that comes with 8 inch flamers.
I have seen 1 litterly 1 of them in 8th edition and it died in a single round of CC. Because an almost 300 point model with 8inch 2D6 S6 weapons is good at killing Primaris.
