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Martel732 wrote:
Or FW doesn't get AoD. That would be a way to let people down softly.

Do you ever shut up? Please just go away.

 McGibs wrote:
Even IF Leviathans don't get AoD, they're still dreadnoughts and can still be targeted by the half-damage strat for 1cp.
I'm legit worried about these things, as most marine players in my meta already seem to have at least one on deck.
Aside from bringing down the insanity of their double storm-cannons, I'm not sure how they can be balanced without invalidating them vs other dreads. They're a cool model and I love the idea of them.. but gzus they are absolutely on another level of lethality and durability to anything else in the game when they're buffed properly.

The only fix is to make the leviathans not targetable by that strat or increase their cost. A lot.

I'm sure FW will have a FAQ on Saturday. Though I'm surprised no one has asked on Facebook.

EDIT: I'm sure most people who run a Leviathan run more than one, so make one pop the strat and nuke the others.

The Storm Cannon Leviathan is already over 300pts, how much more should it cost? lol

If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.

Yeah, I don't think a flat point increase is the answer. Pointing things because of disproportionate stratagems is a rough road. Can't really point the strat higher, because 1cp is fine for most other dreads.

Honestly I just think the profile on the stormcannons is too nuts. 10 shots apeice at BS2 is ridiculous. Those guns are about as perfect a statline as you can get. Strong enough to reliably wound most tanks, enough AP to negate armour but not overpenetrate invulns, reliable 2 damage, and a bazillion shots with great BS. That's on top of a knight-durability chassis (even more with this strat). The Chaos Leviathan isnt nearly as broken because it has less shots and AP (and it doesnt have a 4++ out of combat).
If they dropped ONE thing about the cannons, I'd sweat a lot less. One less AP. One less damage. A couple less shots. One less strength. Just pick one stat and drop it.

I'd be okay with it being almost unkillible only if it couldn't also obliterate whatever you pointed it at. Not dealing with leviathans is not a valid stratagy because they are so stupidly killy.

In a perfect world, I agree. It's easier to push out a points change, though, than a weapon profile change. In their brains at least, I'm sure.

Most likely theyll do the same thing as they did for chaos with the helbrute strat that allows them to shoot twice. They clarified that it was only for the unit called Helbrute and now those with the keyword Helbrute. So they may just faq it by saying the following are affected by the strat etc etc.

Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.

I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

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 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.

I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

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You say this a lot. What specifically do we disagree on at this point?

Martel732 wrote:
You say this a lot. What specifically do we disagree on at this point?

Now that I think about it, we probably agree on far more things on a general basis, but often not the specifics. I.e. we seem to agree when an issue exists, but disagree on the solution.

So while agree the leviathan is very powerful, I disagree that not giving it AoD or the ability to use the strat is the answer. It absolutely should get both. But also be more points, preferably the Stormcannons should cost more than 5 autocannons each (because they are basically 5 autocannon with only 24" but Ap-2). The jump form Ap-1 to Ap-2 is a big deal.

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The halve the damage strat is really good but the Levi is one of the few good table top units marines have access too. I'm scared that if you guys think it is too good now just wait until the IH supplement comes out...

There are lots of problems with it though. It is it is relic, so fitting two of them into a list is tough, it gets tied up in combat really easy, the 24" range is super restrictive, moving and shooting turns its 2+ into a 3+ BS and str 7 isn't great in the meta.

It still dies in a meta designed to kill knights, doesn't kill eldar flyers, knights, custodes grav, tank commanders or other in meta threats particularly good (just better than a lot of other marine units). I run mine as DW and it is really good with them (deepstriking to keep them from getting blown off the table turn 1 and w/in 24" range and 2 cp +1 to wound makes str 7 good).

All that being said the new half damage strat is going to make them really hard to kill and will most likely be the auto take that you guys are scared of. But my DW/DA/BA/SW don't have access to that strat so upping the points isn't an answer I could get behind.

edit:
Galef, the drop between 48" range and 24" range is HUGE. I'd trade ap -2 for 48" right now. Basically you are trading 1 point of BS for -1 ap (have to move to get w/in 24" the vast majority of my games). With 48" you get to outrange tau, not get kited by a lot of other ranged units and actually get to stick with a castle vs. venturing out closer to melee/deepstrike threats. Butcher cannons on the chaos dreads are better for cheaper (s8, 36" and negs to leadership is a bargain, throw in purge re-roll all hits and they are a better unit for the price).

It for sure has some weaknesses (range and combat), but they're not glaringly so.
24" +8" move can still cover most of the board from midfield, and as stated, its got a real mean overwatch, especially with rerolls, so getting into combat with it takes some finesse.

In their current form, I find them just barely tolerable. They're killable, but I really have to dedicate the vast majority of my anti tank to do so, otherwise they'll delete at least one unit per turn.
Now they suddenly have double survivability, and there's just no way I see myself bringing them down fast enough before they gut me. If they don't get a nerf, I can see them absolutely being an autotake (they were already one of the onyl few viable marine units) with no real hard counter, which is a bad bad thing.

An Iron Hand leviathan will not only be that extra bit durable, but also never degrade and overwatch on a 5+. With a chapter master nearby even on overwatch he will put out lethal firepower. I do hope the leviathan does not get access to that half damage strat and that is as a marine player. It would be an absolute terror in the night.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.

I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

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It's been auto take for a long time. Because basically every unit in the marine codex is overcosted and this thing is clearly undercosted. Ultimately though without the Gman buff it's going down in power level overall. I was already making it -1 to hit with t9. Essentially forcing opponents to ignore it and it was destroying about it's point value every turn almost automatically. Still though it's short ranged and units that ignore overwatch and 1 shot knights have no problem with this thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:
It for sure has some weaknesses (range and combat), but they're not glaringly so.
24" +8" move can still cover most of the board from midfield, and as stated, its got a real mean overwatch, especially with rerolls, so getting into combat with it takes some finesse.

In their current form, I find them just barely tolerable. They're killable, but I really have to dedicate the vast majority of my anti tank to do so, otherwise they'll delete at least one unit per turn.
Now they suddenly have double survivability, and there's just no way I see myself bringing them down fast enough before they gut me. If they don't get a nerf, I can see them absolutely being an autotake (they were already one of the onyl few viable marine units) with no real hard counter, which is a bad bad thing.

Think of it like a tau riptide. It's very similar. It should take your whole army to focus down a 300 point unit.

What are you shooting that it is killing 300 points in one turn?

It doesn't kill a tank commander in one turn (20 shots, 15ish hits (moved re-rolling 1s), 5 wounds, 10 damage. Knights laugh at it. Eldar flyers laugh. I mean, I guess if you are going against marines you can light up some plasma inceptors (although they probably kill you first if they are DA) or terrible hellblasters but what in-meta stuff is this thing a threat to without gman re-roll bubble (hell, doesn't even kill an alaitoc wave serpent)?

I guess with Gman re-rolls it could do work but then that's more like a 500 point unit and this thing isn't removing 500 points of anything no matter what re-rolls (and now those re-rolls are gone).

I can't think of a 300 point meta unit this thing kills while there's a lot in the meta that will smoke it for around those points (Krast crusader, BA smash captain, a couple grav tanks, a couple tank commanders, aberrants, rock saws, morty, relic shock attack + anything, lord discos, chain lord, trip-tides, crusader, I'm sure some chaos knights can do it, haywire, grots, trip fire prisims...)

bananathug wrote:
What are you shooting that it is killing 300 points in one turn?

It doesn't kill a tank commander in one turn (20 shots, 15ish hits (moved re-rolling 1s), 5 wounds, 10 damage. Knights laugh at it. Eldar flyers laugh. I mean, I guess if you are going against marines you can light up some plasma inceptors (although they probably kill you first if they are DA) or terrible hellblasters but what in-meta stuff is this thing a threat to without gman re-roll bubble (hell, doesn't even kill an alaitoc wave serpent)?

I guess with Gman re-rolls it could do work but then that's more like a 500 point unit and this thing isn't removing 500 points of anything no matter what re-rolls (and now those re-rolls are gone).

I can't think of a 300 point meta unit this thing kills while there's a lot in the meta that will smoke it for around those points (Krast crusader, BA smash captain, a couple grav tanks, a couple tank commanders, aberrants, rock saws, morty, relic shock attack + anything, lord discos, chain lord, trip-tides, crusader, I'm sure some chaos knights can do it, haywire, grots, trip fire prisims...)

Gman buff my friend. Splitting the guns is also effective. T8 isn't ideal but it's going to do it's worst numbers obviously. Stormsurge though? Ideal. Custodes bikers? Rekt. Averages on rerolls it's not uncommon to hit and wound with everything on 3's. I know. It happens almost every game I run it. ESP if you are hitting on 2's.

Gman buffs your whole army. True it is an expensive buff. It was also the best way to run the levi.

What? The Leviathan was a good unit in a poor dex, no question, but it was not some majorly underpriced monster. It is about 60% of a Knight in both cost and what it does. If an opponent can drop a Knight it can take down a Leviathan. And the 24” range sucks on a unit that gets -1 to shots on the move. Heck, the Deredeo is a better shooter per point, better range, and still has an invulnerable. The Leviathan only stands out as the only durable unit pure marines had.

Yes, it gets better with the new rules as souping in a full Knight is more costly and the dread strat, but I still doubt it’s going to need some sort of major nerf. It’s like avoiding Rotate Ion, opponents can always shoot at other things in your list that are just as dangerous and not sporting an inv and strat reduction.

bort wrote:
What? The Leviathan was a good unit in a poor dex, no question, but it was not some majorly underpriced monster. It is about 60% of a Knight in both cost and what it does. If an opponent can drop a Knight it can take down a Leviathan. And the 24” range sucks on a unit that gets -1 to shots on the move. Heck, the Deredeo is a better shooter per point, better range, and still has an invulnerable. The Leviathan only stands out as the only durable unit pure marines had.

Yes, it gets better with the new rules as souping in a full Knight is more costly and the dread strat, but I still doubt it’s going to need some sort of major nerf. It’s like avoiding Rotate Ion, opponents can always shoot at other things in your list that are just as dangerous and not sporting an inv and strat reduction.

LOL no its not. 20 ap-2 autocannons hitting on 2's for 300 points is by far the best space marine shooting platform available - it's one of the best in the game I am sure. It's pretty undercosted. Compare it to supressors. You are getting more firepower per point and about 3x the durability. Suppressors aren't that poorly priced ether. I'm not saying it should be nerfed. It is basically getting a point reduction because it's range is so low. If it had 36" or 48" range it should probably be about 40 points more expensive.

No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.

bort wrote:
No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.

Xeno at this point is trying to make everything so terribad that they return Gman to reroll all wounds.
He's wanting the codex to go back to it's old crappy mono build days.

The reroll all wounds buff was awful. It made costing units almost impossible. Let it die.

Just making gravis 3W is going to change my lists a lot, and BA don't even get all the goodies.

Martel732 wrote:
...... and BA don't even get all the goodies.

Yet. But rest assured they certainly will eventually.
In fact, having a more standardized set of unit datasheet/profile for all Marines and then having unique Chapter Tactics/Strats/Relic/etc is the right way to move forward IMO. Let BA/DA/SW keep most (or all) of their unique units, but for everything shared, keep it in the make Marine Codex.

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bort wrote:
No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.

The versatility and durability alike are what make it so good.
It has t8 4++ with 14 wounds. Basically the best defensive profile you are getting short of a land raider achilles.
It's actually best at killing heavy infantry but with 20 shots it outperforms even dedicated anti vehicle. IDK...I get a lot of crap for bringing it mos thet time. Because it just deletes units...then again - so do riptides and broadsides and obliterators and yada yada yada.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...... and BA don't even get all the goodies.

Yet. But rest assured they certainly will eventually.
In fact, having a more standardized set of unit datasheet/profile for all Marines and then having unique Chapter Tactics/Strats/Relic/etc is the right way to move forward IMO. Let BA/DA/SW keep most (or all) of their unique units, but for everything shared, keep it in the make Marine Codex.

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I'll try to resist temptation to proxy as a vanilla chapter. We'll have to see the exact nature of what happens next week.

Martel732 wrote:
The reroll all wounds buff was awful. It made costing units almost impossible. Let it die.

Just making gravis 3W is going to change my lists a lot, and BA don't even get all the goodies.

It's dead. The is plenty of flat 3 wound stuff out there too. LOL. I spam it actually. My nids spam flat 3. So does my tau. Overall it's a good buff to agressors and cents too.

Flat 3 is way less common than flat 2. It just is.

Point of hilarity:

The "build your own CT" that allows you to take a First Founding Chapter CT includes no requirement that you run that chapter as a successor to the CT that you select.

Want to run Iron Hands CT with the Smurf super-doctrine? Until they FAQ it you can, at the low price of not using named characters.

Seriously? Seems like that will be a pretty common pick until the rest of the chapters get released.

Sterling191 wrote:
Point of hilarity:

The "build your own CT" that allows you to take a First Founding Chapter CT includes no requirement that you run that chapter as a successor to the CT that you select.

Want to run Iron Hands CT with the Smurf super-doctrine? Until they FAQ it you can, at the low price of not using named characters.

Pretty sure the super doctrines are only available to the actual first founding chapter. There is no advantage to being a second founding.