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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
   
Made in us
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Sioux Falls, SD

So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
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str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.


I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.

Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


I don't have the codex in hand yet, but I'm near positive Battlescribe is mispricing those. It lists the unit of 3 with plasma for 258, but I think it should be 174. Still really expensive for me to get too excited about, but a heck of a lot better. Edit: Okay, I guess the cost is comparable to a unit of vet bikers with plasma guns and it gives an option in a force slot I never like having to fill. I'm not rushing out to buy them, but they seem like they'd have uses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 05:11:55


 
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.

Depends what you're needing. I wouldn't use regular Tactical Marines over Intercessors to be honest, and with Deep Striking and charging, it's kinda hard to choose between Reivers and Vanguard for me (as much as Relic Blades and Power Weapons call to me).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ultimentra wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.


I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.

Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.

You can't reject the logic just because.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 05:59:04


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Lost Carcosa

str00dles1 wrote:
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain.


Repulsors can only transport Primaris Infantry. Cassius and generic Chaplains can't get in it. You would have to use a Primaris Chaplain.

Standing in the light, I see only darkness.  
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.


Probably boils down to the fact that people who don't like unit X are more likely to complain about them on the internet, than people who like unit X are likely to give them praise on the internet.

I think most of the Primiaris Units are fine:

- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 09:12:40


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Sioux Falls, SD

What's the thought on the Vindicator now? Still overpriced for what it does at 135 pts?

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 MinscS2 wrote:

- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.


The last part of your sentence is untrue at least: I run a full dreadnought army, have double the amount of models I actually need for it and have been doing breakdowns of units, options and so on for my blog: The main thing I can say for the Redemptor is, if monobuilded to the dakka variant, it's solidly okay for it's points.

It has the most heavy bolter equivalent shots of any dread, but the worst skill stats of a high end dread and only one weapon with a longer range than 24 inches. Factor in a fist baked into the base cost you can't chose to not take, it has a lot of incentive to move and end up shooting at BS4+. It also hurts the most of any degrading dread from degrading stats as a result.

Point for point equivalents amongst other dreads tend to lead to either more efficiency, or more flexibility.

Again, it's not bad: But I'd strongly contend your point that it offers anything new or unique.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/31 12:08:58


 
   
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Indiana

Anyone have a complete list of the points cost changes?

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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 dmthomas7 wrote:
Quick question since I haven't seen the book yet. Korsarro Khan, are his rules identical to the index or is there actually something lost by running him on a bike from the index?

He is exactly identical to the foot model in the index. So if you don't have an issue with the difference of the foot model vs the bike model, you good to go. You even get WS chapter tactics, and access to that sweet stratagem, which is excellent for the Khan on the bike.


 Leth wrote:
Anyone have a complete list of the points cost changes?


I'm pretty sure the rumor section has some info like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 12:57:51


Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
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str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


I generally agree, but i think only primaris can go into the repulsor.

I'd almost think you'd be better off keeping aggressors or hellblasters inside than reivers, but i mostly just don't like reivers that much.
   
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 ultimentra wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.


I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.

Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.


I own all the current models, have it all painted and have played over 15 games with primaris. I don't mind max, and I don't play in tourneys. For the time and money invested though, if im given 2 options and one of those options is terrible, im not going to be stupid and take it "just because". Its already gimping playing pure primaris and needed to be Ultramarines to have a chance of winning, forced to take Roboute.

You average is 12 shots. For 240 I can take 4 with the HB getting 24 shots. STR 5 to STR 7 really doesent come into play that much to make a difference. If you are trying to kill vehicles, better at taking hellblasters and overcharging with rerolls in cover. Im guaranteed 24 shots every time, while I could get 6-18 shots with plasma. Im sure this weekend you will proxy them and rush back on here to go "SEE THEY ARE AMAZINGS!" but really they are not. Its a bad configuration when there are far better options.

bort wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.


I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.

As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent


I don't have the codex in hand yet, but I'm near positive Battlescribe is mispricing those. It lists the unit of 3 with plasma for 258, but I think it should be 174. Still really expensive for me to get too excited about, but a heck of a lot better. Edit: Okay, I guess the cost is comparable to a unit of vet bikers with plasma guns and it gives an option in a force slot I never like having to fill. I'm not rushing out to buy them, but they seem like they'd have uses.


For 3 of them, its 258 points. that's from the codex I have.




 MinscS2 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.


Probably boils down to the fact that people who don't like unit X are more likely to complain about them on the internet, than people who like unit X are likely to give them praise on the internet.

I think most of the Primiaris Units are fine:

- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.


Following is all based on a pure primaris play experience with Robby

Intercessors - I agree. Given that the GL is 4 points, always a must take. Good to slowly advance and hold ovjectives while having the chance of dealing minor anti tank

Reivers - From the games ive had with them I disagree. If they had -1 to their weapon, id call them good. As is, very lackluster as a CC unit. The fail of not being able to deepstrike and grenade the unit is also disappointing. I will try them with the Prim Chaplain in a Repulsor to make a final call, but its a shooting game, so weak CC isn't much use.

Aggressors - Agree, they are amazing .Always have done a great job in my games and that's without being near Roboute for full rerolls. Being able to advance with no penalty is fantastic. and their points is so low for as much shots as they get

Hellblasters - A very good anti tank. Since its all about shooting, a solid blob of 10 with heavy blasters is a nightmare for tanks. Best used with Rob for full rerolls, but when doing so a nasty 36 inch death bubble to anything they point at. Expensive at 350 but still worth it

Redemptor - Ive only used it with mass dakka. Its been, meh. I don't think its plasma has much use as hellblasters in cover can deal more consistent damage. And aggressors fill that mass dakka role. I like how it looks, but it just hasn't done much besides be a bullet catcher and dead on turn 2

Repulsor. - At first yea, its pretty expensive. It can shoot a ton though and fly lets it not be locked down like normal LR can be. that said, I honestly only think its use is CC reivers with Chaplain. that's what im going to try.

Other things like most characters are good. ancients are also great to stick near the blob of Hellblasters. Half the time even if your reroll overcharge craps out, you get to get another shot off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 12:57:01


 
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




MinscS27274639524371c4b28275dc8d51b75166db9f0ffee562.png wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
I think most of the Primiaris Units are fine:

- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.


Following is all based on a pure primaris play experience with Robby

Intercessors - I agree. Given that the GL is 4 points, always a must take. Good to slowly advance and hold ovjectives while having the chance of dealing minor anti tank

Reivers - From the games ive had with them I disagree. If they had -1 to their weapon, id call them good. As is, very lackluster as a CC unit. The fail of not being able to deepstrike and grenade the unit is also disappointing. I will try them with the Prim Chaplain in a Repulsor to make a final call, but its a shooting game, so weak CC isn't much use.

Aggressors - Agree, they are amazing .Always have done a great job in my games and that's without being near Roboute for full rerolls. Being able to advance with no penalty is fantastic. and their points is so low for as much shots as they get

Hellblasters - A very good anti tank. Since its all about shooting, a solid blob of 10 with heavy blasters is a nightmare for tanks. Best used with Rob for full rerolls, but when doing so a nasty 36 inch death bubble to anything they point at. Expensive at 350 but still worth it

Redemptor - Ive only used it with mass dakka. Its been, meh. I don't think its plasma has much use as hellblasters in cover can deal more consistent damage. And aggressors fill that mass dakka role. I like how it looks, but it just hasn't done much besides be a bullet catcher and dead on turn 2

Repulsor. - At first yea, its pretty expensive. It can shoot a ton though and fly lets it not be locked down like normal LR can be. that said, I honestly only think its use is CC reivers with Chaplain. that's what im going to try.

Other things like most characters are good. ancients are also great to stick near the blob of Hellblasters. Half the time even if your reroll overcharge craps out, you get to get another shot off.


I think reivers should be quite effective when used as you would use intercessors, with the carbine and without deep strike. They are two pts cheaper with the same statline and a comparable gun, and represent the cheapest infantry wounds in SM. I don't have any experience with the grenade launcher but it doesn't seem game-changing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 13:10:50


 
   
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Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
   
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jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

   
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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
   
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PDX

Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.

   
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For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.

The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).

If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.

Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.

Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.

Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.

I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.


Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 13:53:19


 
   
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jcd386 wrote:
Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.


If they are armed with the ccw i agree, but with the carbine they are comparable to intercessors and represent cheaper wounds. They are actually fairly difficult to kill efficiently, at least in comparison to other SM units.
   
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Oshawa Ontario

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.


The 1/3 is correct, with rerolls.

12 shots out of the unit on average (6D3 = 12 avg).
2 rolls of 1 on average.
rerolling the 2 ones nets you an over heat every third turn with a captain.

So, our 258 point squad is now what, 360+ for 12 plasma shots with an 18" range? Feels kinda bad. Wouldn't a 10 man Hellblaster squad with the heavy blasters be a better choice? More strength, more reach, able to camp objectives, more wounds, able to get consistent cover saves.

Hell, 3 Las/plasma + HK + stormbolter razorbacks seem like a better choice as well.

I think you could manage 2 5 man devastator squads with 4 plasma cannons each for 360 points as well. 8 Plasma cannons is 16 shots per turn avg, but on a more frail platform obviously.

Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!

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I have to agree that the plasma inceptors are just terrible. They're better at killing themselves than the enemy.

   
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PDX

 Carnage43 wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.


The 1/3 is correct, with rerolls.

12 shots out of the unit on average (6D3 = 12 avg).
2 rolls of 1 on average.
rerolling the 2 ones nets you an over heat every third turn with a captain.

So, our 258 point squad is now what, 360+ for 12 plasma shots with an 18" range? Feels kinda bad. Wouldn't a 10 man Hellblaster squad with the heavy blasters be a better choice? More strength, more reach, able to camp objectives, more wounds, able to get consistent cover saves.

Hell, 3 Las/plasma + HK + stormbolter razorbacks seem like a better choice as well.

I think you could manage 2 5 man devastator squads with 4 plasma cannons each for 360 points as well. 8 Plasma cannons is 16 shots per turn avg, but on a more frail platform obviously.


I am not arguing for them - just that they had options. Honestly, I won't run the Plasma versions anyhow. Especially with those stupid helmets. I think the Bolter versions are probably the best of the two Inceptor options. Like you said, Marines do Plasma well enough with Heckblasters and whatnot. No sense in wasting it on these guys.

   
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jcd386 wrote:
For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.

The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).

If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.

Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.

Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.

Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.

I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.


Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.


Why do you think hellblasters/agressors are better in the repulsor?

I suppose its based on chapter?

For UM, best to take heavy hellblasters and use them as a firebase with bobbys rerolls. turn 3-4 you might move up as hed move by then to go after objectives so you wont overcharge that turn, but besides that they don't need to move much. Don't see much reason to take rapid fire.

Same with agressors. Start 12 up, advance for total of average 8 more. Your now 20 in, hopefully in cover and have threat of 18 so should be able to hit most things. I don't consider using the flamers, as that's a worse option.

Overall, don't think there really is a unit that's "must ride repulsor!" but the best (and its a bad over all point sink option) is the reivers+chap.
   
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sossen wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.


If they are armed with the ccw i agree, but with the carbine they are comparable to intercessors and represent cheaper wounds. They are actually fairly difficult to kill efficiently, at least in comparison to other SM units.


I've just never been that scared of 10 Bolter shots.

And i would generally rather have a more dangerous fragile unit (tac squads) than i would an infective hard to kill one. Plus they really arent that hard to kill with heavy bolters, assault cannons, etc, and actually easier to kill with autocannons, oc plasma, grav, etc than a similarly pointed tac squad is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
str00dles1 wrote:
Spoiler:
jcd386 wrote:
For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.

The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).

If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.

Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.

Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.

Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.

I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.

Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.

This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.


Bring a Captain along?

He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.


Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.

And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.


Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.


Why do you think hellblasters/agressors are better in the repulsor?

I suppose its based on chapter?

For UM, best to take heavy hellblasters and use them as a firebase with bobbys rerolls. turn 3-4 you might move up as hed move by then to go after objectives so you wont overcharge that turn, but besides that they don't need to move much. Don't see much reason to take rapid fire.

Same with agressors. Start 12 up, advance for total of average 8 more. Your now 20 in, hopefully in cover and have threat of 18 so should be able to hit most things. I don't consider using the flamers, as that's a worse option.

Overall, don't think there really is a unit that's "must ride repulsor!" but the best (and its a bad over all point sink option) is the reivers+chap.


Mostly because those units are more expensive and more likely to be targeted by effective enemy shooting in the first couple turns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 14:13:03


 
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

Has anyone done the math on which Hellblaster variant is the best? I think it is probably between the Assault and Rapid Fire variant. The Heavy variant suffers from, well, being heavy, but also being single shot.

5250 pts
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Ship's Officer



London

I was up at Warhammer world this weekend with my Imperial Fists, for the Fate of Konnor campaign. They had a 3-game 1500 point (combined) doubles event on Saturday and 3-game singles 1700 on Sunday. I went with a friend who used ravenguard for the doubles and iron hands for the singles.

In total we won 8 of the 9 games we played. I contrived to lose the ambush mission against Ynnari, but actually shouldn’t have. We were playing the ambush mission and he won by getting a star weaver full of harlequins off the board, but it had to advance to do so and shouldn’t have been able to, as it has been locked in cc. Neither of us remembered that rule at the time – which is fine. That kind of thing happens in new editions. He stole initiative as well 

Anyway we learned some lessons from the games, as follows:

Intercessors are great. They are the good troops choice that marines have been waiting for forever. My friend had 2 squads of 5 and a squad of 10 in his 750 point RG army and they were rock solid – very hard to shift and killed stuff quite a lot. My imperial fist ones were quite nasty due to ignoring cover. The auxiliary grenade launchers helped quite a bit. In future I’ll definitely give sergeants power swords, as intercessors are actually fairly decent in cc, and this might well tip the balance. Actually I think the cost of power weapons now justifies giving them to pretty much all sergeants. If anything, the fact that intercessor sergeants can have power swords makes reivers even more pointless than I already think they are.

I think the intercessors benefited from being in quite mechanised armies. They’d be quite vulnerable to heavy weapons, but people needed to fire those at vehicles. Small-arms fire doesn’t do an awful lot to intercessors – particularly raven guard ones in cover.

The Ravenguard stratagem also won us at least one game. We were able to have the RG captain deploy on the relic, screened by a unit of 10 intercessors. Even though our opponents had first turn, and a lot of nasty dakka, the captain was unmolested. He was able to “advance” away with the relic while my imperial fists came and counter-attacked the people who’d been picking on the RG intercessors.

By contrast, normal tactical squads just seemed rubbish. I had a 5-man tactical squad with a storm bolter and plasma gun in the singles, and they were only 20 points cheaper than 5 intercessors would have been. I only own 5 intercessors though, and the tacticals can ride in my storm eagle.

Contemptor dreadnoughts are also really good. They are an awful lot better than normal dreads because of being faster, stronger (S14 means they tend to wound vehicles on a 2+) and more accurate. The invulnerable helps too. You can be seriously aggressive with these things. Their shooting isn’t great but they don’t spend many points on their guns. Instead they just give you a really efficient way of hitting things with a dreadnought close combat weapon – which then results in those things dying in a very messy way.

On the other hand I wasn’t that impressed by my Deredeo. The weak AP meant that it tended to fail to kill most things. It was very good against elder and necron skimmers but poor against anything with a 3+ save. A quad-lascannon Mortis Contemptor would be cheaper. The one really good thing it did was to attract a lot of hate for some reason, most of which it shrugged off without too much bother. People really kept gunning for it – charging in with helldrakes, deep-striking terminators and so on. It tended to just soak things up and then wander off, while other people pounced on whoever had been trying to kill it.

I used Lysander on both days. He is another model that does a single job, really well, without spending many points on other stuff. He seemed to keep on running into Typhus and assorted other nurgle lords, and he was always standing at the end. A duel against a Solitaire resulted in nothing much happening at all. Any time he got next to something without a really good invulnerable, it died. I often held onto 2CPs to use the stratagem to attack again if a character dies – but he never died. He did get down to 1 wound in a game vs 4 blight drones and 3 lords of contagion. Exploding blight drones are annoying.

Cataphractii were kind of cool too. I had them ride around in a storm eagle in the singles games, but they might not have really needed it, as they can just deep strike instead. They aren’t too expensive and they are seriously tough. I tended to have them engage as many units of plague marines as they could (did I mention 4 of the 6 games involved plague marines?) and then slowly grind them into a paste.

The Storm Eagle was quite fun. I’m not sure if it was actually required as a transport, because most of the guys inside could deep strike anyway, but it dropping off Lysander and the Cataphractii won me one of the games – in which it also shot Belokar dead. Flyers are actually quite good at assassinating characters, as they are often able to get close to them and also usually can’t be hit back by those characters – should they survive.

I used 3 inceptors with assault bolters in the singles and found them a very good unit to have. They can always get a shot without dying, because you may as well always deep strike. Like the intercessors, they benefit from being a lower-priority target for heavy weapons if there are lots of big scary tanks and dreadnoughts around. It helped that Lysander tended to be around them, so they often got rerolls of 1s.

I actually don’t think I always used the inceptors quite right. They are dedicated anti-infantry unit and I sometimes fired them at things like blight drones. My instinct is that their S5 makes them better at this than intercessors, but it really doesn’t. I should tend to have inceptors fire at infantry and intercessors shoot tanks – or just bring more lascannons.

I do think plasma inceptors would be good, based on the performance of the bolter-armed ones. It’s a really big deal to be able to deploy to hit the thing that you need to die, and to have been tucked up nice and safe in the carrying case before that. I think hellblasters on the ground would tend to be focussed down and quite often die before they fired, but inceptors wouldn’t have that issue. And it would work particularly well for me if I could keep them near to Lysander.

My friend used 3 predators with autocannons and lascannons, and a cataphractii captain with the storm of fire warlord trait. This caused absolute carnage. The autocannons quite often got the extra -1ap from storm of fire, as they were getting +1 to wound, and the lascannons would tend to wound on a 2+.

He also played against Roboute Guilliman twice (the Imperial side was oversubscribed on day two, so he was made to be a traitor!). He won the games but felt that RG was seriously under-costed. He certainly does seem to do serious amounts of damage to things, and the buffs he hands out are incredible. It’s a particular bonus to plasma gunners, who can even shoot at flyers without too much concern about blowing themselves up.

In terms of tactics one thing I found is that assault is not dead, so long as it’s mass-assault. If you send just a unit or two forward then the enemy can just take whatever losses they suffer, fall back with whoever’s in combat and then blow your guys away. And whoever’s up front will get smited a bunch of times as well. But if you can tie up several units then the enemy firepower really drops away, as everyone has to fall back. That results in an enemy turn in which loads of their army does nothing much at all, and that means you win.

I’m not sure what to do in future. So far I’ve just got the primaris guys from the starter set, who I’ve been using as troops to go with my 30k Imperial Fists. That has worked well, but if I buy any more guys I think I’ll need to think a bit about whether to stay as Imperial Fists. Ignoring cover is good, and so is Lysander, but it’s not the strongest. On the plus side I’ve got yellow to look good and that’s pretty satisfying. I quite like the idea of painting them as the greyshields from the dark imperium book, so I’d have guys of all the original 9 legions using ultramarines CTs, potentially led by RG. Not sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 15:41:36


 
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Has anyone done the math on which Hellblaster variant is the best? I think it is probably between the Assault and Rapid Fire variant. The Heavy variant suffers from, well, being heavy, but also being single shot.


I did some math vs marines, terminators, rhinos, and land raiders.

Unsurprisingly:

At over 24" range, heavy is the best.
At 24" range, assault is best.
Inside 15" rapid fire is the best.

So it really depends on how close you think you can get.

I don't have the points for the weapons in front of me, but assuming the three are similar, i would lean towards the assault version if footslogging and rapid fire if riding in the repulsor.

The heavy guns only kill 2.7 out of cover marines, do 4.4 wounds to a rhino, 3.7 to a land raider, and kill 1.85 terminators, and have to overcharge to get those numbers vs all but the Marines. None of these are very good numbers imo.

The assault kill 4.4 marines, do 6.6 to rhino, 3.7 to lr, and kill 2.9 terminators, overcharging vs all but marines.

Long range Rapid fire kills 2.7 marines, 4.4 rhino wounds, 2.7 lr wounds, and kills 1.85 terminators, over charging vs all targets.

Close range rapid fire doubles the above numbers to 5.5, 8.8, 5.5, and 3.7.

Hopefully that's useful.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




jcd386 wrote:
I did some math vs marines, terminators, rhinos, and land raiders.

Unsurprisingly:

At over 24" range, heavy is the best.
At 24" range, assault is best.
Inside 15" rapid fire is the best.

So it really depends on how close you think you can get.


This basically means that heavy straight up has the worst damage potential, only really having range to call on. Doesn't surprise me at all really.

I'd suggest plasma cannon Devastators for that role, much better rate of fire.
   
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Doh, I priced Inceptors with 1 gun and they have 2, dont they? Yeah, that makes them less appealing. Much as I like double the shots I was assuming, I dont like putting that many points in to only 3 guys, especially who can die to a supercharge.
   
 
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