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Mandragola wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Wumbaz wrote:
Is anyone really sure about how chapter mix-ups are handled rulewise?

An Example - ill take 2 Detachements of pure Imperial Fist Marines, 1 Detachement consisting IG Conscripts, Ultramarine Captain and IG Weapon Teams..

So.. my Captain is Ultramarine and i want him to be the Warlord - so i gain the Ultramarine Warlord Trait. Cause of my Imperial Fists Detachements i get their Chapter Tactic which is just affecting the 2 Detachements .. not the Ultra Captain.

Is that a legal composition?

Yes. This is legal. You can also give the Ultramarine a Ultramarine relic, and the IFs a IF relic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also take named chapter masters and then upgrade a captain to be another one as long as he is a different chapter than they are.

Not quite. Your warlord unlocks relics. You get a space marine relic if your warlord is a space marine. You don't get one relic per detachment.

You can have two chapter masters but you can only use the stratagem once. You can have say Shrike and then upgrade an imperial fist guy to CM.

In the example above, the imperial fiats obviously wouldn't benefit from the ultramarine captain's aura. And he wouldn't get his chapter tactic due to not being in a detachment of only ultramarines - though he'd have access to the sanctic halo if you wanted. So it's a legal set up but not an especially useful one.

Personally I'd keep all my marines in marine detachments and maybe have something like an inquisitor, tempestor prime or (most logically with conscripts) commissar lord lead an allied detachment.

I'm right, but maybe i wasnt clear enough. The second or third relic would be from the strategem, not one per detachment. They're isn't anything saying you can't give relics to another SM chapter model.

You can have all / any of the named chapter masters + one more upgraded one. Obviously their auras only effect their chapters, though.

What are the thoughts on hunter-killer missiles when you've got a so-so chance of going first?

6pts for 1 shot doesn't compare too bad vs 25pts for a regular missile launcher which isn't likely to live to shoot 5+ times, in my mind. Knowingly going second I wouldn't bother, I'd assume my vehicles would be shot up, but I'm surprised they don't show more in low deployment count lists or lists assuming a roll-off for first turn.

I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.

sossen wrote:
I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.

Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.

bort wrote:

sossen wrote:
I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.

Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.

Its a Heavy weapon(right?)

i figure the best places to put them are on land raider since they benefit from potms and on tanks that are not moving.

bort wrote:

sossen wrote:
I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.

Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.

They are probably pretty good if you have a lot of vehicles, as most of them are likely to shoot. The most I guess you would probably be able to put in a list is 8 or so, so i guess you might not miss the 40 points for a pretty reasonable alphastrike.

You can't really compare them directly to a 25 point missile and say the missile costs too much unless it shoots 5 times, as the devastator unit does a lot of things that a hunter killer cant, like shoot more than once, hold an objective, soak up enemy fire, etc. Obviously both things have their place.

What're everyone's thoughts on the FW Relic Dreadnoughts?

Relic Contemptors with two Twin Lascannons looks very solid; for about 10% more than a 4 Lascannon Devastator squad, you trade a one time extra shot and a small amount of survivability (5 single wounds vs 12 combined) for a 5+ Invuln, 6+ FNP, better immunity to small arms fire, and better accuracy on the move and standing still.

Relic Doredeos seem like nice, all around autocannon boats that happen to get an extra advantage vs flyers; that said, they can be a bit short range, and immobile at times - however, you can trade the Missile Launcher for a Pavaise - 5+ Invulnerable saves for surrounding units? Yes, please. As an Ork player, I'm loving the idea of a dakka boat+KFF dreadnought. Plus, couple that Pavaise with the Relic Strategem, you have a very nice centerpiece for your army. However, I'm concerned about an autocannon's actual damage output - 2damage doesn't scale nicely into vehicle wounds, especially when the save is only -1. Relic Leviathans offer a lot more damage output (20 Autocannon shots vs 8) at -2AP instead of -1AP, but the range is 12" less, and doesn't get the +1 vs flyers (both relevant considering how mobile flyers are); at a minimal price increase - but they also get a survivability increase too... that said, Relic Doredeos are Elites instead of Heavy Support, which offers alternative options for list building.

Relic Leviathans are essentially a Land Raider+Terminator rolled into a dreadnought; as someone who loves all three units, the thought sounds fun, and they have all sorts of great weapon combinations. Admittedly, they're very expensive in any loadout - they'll be a primary target, and you'll have to get real lucky with your invulnerable saves to make it out alive against the enemy army.

Of course, as Relic units, you can only take a limited number (3 per detachment at most); and requires you to take other same-role units, which is its own issue.

However, one thing I'm REALLY thinking about is - as dreadnoughts, they get access to Chapter Tactics.

Raven Guard (plus potentially Smoke Launchers) can add a lot of survivability if you run a shooting Relic dreadnought, and Salamanders increases the damage output (moreso for Lascannon Relic Contemptors than ones with more dakka); one of the major concerns I was seeing was if dual-ranged weapon dreadnoughts got tied up in melee - normally, I'd overlook the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, but here it looks like it could shine especially; being able to fall back and unleash hell could turn the tides.

The Imperial Guard one gives a little more punch versus models in cover, but compared to the others, probably isn't as useful. The Iron Hands tactic grants FNP, effectively turning Relic Dreadnoughts into mini Leviathans. That said, it's still a 6+. The rest are decent if you run Relic Dreadnoughts in melee configurations, but I'm not sold on that concept without a reliable way to deliver them to the front lines.

What works better generally, Jump Infantry or Bikes?

I'm torn on whether to restart BA or WS as an Imperium faction. Bikes move faster (even more when WS) but Jump units can Fly which seems handy...

 Frozocrone wrote:
What works better generally, Jump Infantry or Bikes?

I'm torn on whether to restart BA or WS as an Imperium faction. Bikes move faster (even more when WS) but Jump units can Fly which seems handy...

Do you want Toughness or deployability.

thats pretty much the difference besides minimum squad requirements and weapon options.

oh and fly special rule for getting up and over things

I would like to ask for advice on dealing with tau lists using deep striking crisis suits, spammed drones and Y'vahra riptide, the forge world variant of riptide suit.
As usual, I was running a following 2K Iron Hands list with multiple dreadnoughts and non-transport tanks.

Common Faction Keywords : Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Iron Hands

1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ
Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)

- Troops
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-melta & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Meltagun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-melta & Chainsword, 1xSpace Marine : Meltagun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Chainsword & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Lascannon & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)

- Dedicated Transports
Drop Pod(Storm Bolter)

2) Spearhead Detachment
- HQ
Techmarine on Bike(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 2xServo-arm, Power Axe, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Boltgun)

- Heavy Support
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter)
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon)
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon)
Thunderfire Cannon(Thunderfire Cannon, 2xServo-arm, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Bolt Pistol)

3) Vanguard Detachment
- HQ
2 Primaris Lieutenants(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Power Sword & Bolt Pistol, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol)

- Elite
Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter)
Venerable Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer)
Redemptor Dreadnought(Redemptor Fist, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xStorm Bolter)

Total : 2,000pts
Command Points : 8


My opponent was running a following tau list.


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [99 PL, 2000pts] ++
+ HQ +
Commander [7 PL, 178pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, MV1 Gun Drone, MV7 Marker Drone
Commander [7 PL, 170pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, MV7 Marker Drone

+ Elites +
XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [26 PL, 439pts]: 6x MV1 Gun Drone, 2x MV7 Marker Drone
. Crisis Shas'ui: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Drone controller
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 200pts]: 2x Fusion blaster, Fusion collider, 2x MV5 Stealth Drone, Target lock

+ Fast Attack +
Tactical Drones [4 PL, 62pts]: 4x MV1 Gun Drone, 3x MV7 Marker Drone
Tactical Drones [4 PL, 54pts]: 3x MV1 Gun Drone, 3x MV7 Marker Drone
XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [22 PL, 458pts]: Advanced targeting system, Drone controller, 2x MV84 Shielded Missile Drone

+ Heavy Support +
XV107 R'varna Battlesuit [19 PL, 439pts]: Advanced targeting system, Multi-tracker


The game was Big Guns Never Tire mission from Eternal Wars.
While this meant I had an edge in controlling objectives, it also meant my opponent had greater source of kill points, as I had 4 heavy support choices.
My opponent had fewer drops than me, and he took the first turn as I failed to seize the initiative.

Long story short, I conceded at the end of 2nd battle round as I was nearly tabled.
His commanders and crisis suits decimated a dreadnought, two vindicators on the turn they were set up on the battlefield.
Y'vahra alone wiped out the venerable dreadnought and the redemptor dreadnought easily.
R'varna did not perform well, but it rarely mattered as my army was already crippled.

I heard about the drone saviour protocol before, and tried to whittle down as many drones as possible.
After the devastating tau alpha strike however, my firepower wasn't enough to remove many drones.
When I conceded at the end of battle round two, I only had a drop pod, a librarian and a thunderfire cannon.
Both riptides had 2 wounds chipped off.
My opponent had lost less than ten drones total.

There might be some actions I could have taken to mitigate the alpha strike.
Bubble wrapping vindicators with dreadnoughts and other units, for example.
If my vindicators survived, I might have had the chance to unleash linebreaker bombardment.
However I am not sure how many bodies I need to reliably protect my tanks, against at least 8 18" fusion blasters.

Using Auspex Scan to intercept deep striking crisis suits might be an alternative.
But then again it might be ineffective, as the crisis units contain drones to soak up the wounds from lascannons and demolisher cannons.
Not to mention my units suffering -1 to Hit rolls when using Auspex Scan.

If I were to face similar tau list again soon, what list and tactics would be effective?
Currently, my space marine collection includes tactical and devastator squads with meltaguns, grav cannons, drop pods, and heavy support tanks of all kinds.
But I do not own special characters, rhinos, razorbacks and most of the primaris collection.
And unfortunately, I do not have enough money to add much more into my collection for a while.
Therefore, I do not think using typical space marine build involving Guilliman is feasible.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
I would like to ask for advice on dealing with tau lists using deep striking crisis suits, spammed drones and Y'vahra riptide, the forge world variant of riptide suit.
As usual, I was running a following 2K Iron Hands list with multiple dreadnoughts and non-transport tanks.

Common Faction Keywords : Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Iron Hands

1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ
Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)

- Troops
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-melta & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Meltagun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-melta & Chainsword, 1xSpace Marine : Meltagun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Chainsword & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Lascannon & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)

- Dedicated Transports
Drop Pod(Storm Bolter)

2) Spearhead Detachment
- HQ
Techmarine on Bike(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 2xServo-arm, Power Axe, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Boltgun)

- Heavy Support
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter)
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon)
Vindicator(Demolisher Cannon)
Thunderfire Cannon(Thunderfire Cannon, 2xServo-arm, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Bolt Pistol)

3) Vanguard Detachment
- HQ
2 Primaris Lieutenants(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Power Sword & Bolt Pistol, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol)

- Elite
Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter)
Venerable Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer)
Redemptor Dreadnought(Redemptor Fist, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xStorm Bolter)

Total : 2,000pts
Command Points : 8


My opponent was running a following tau list.


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [99 PL, 2000pts] ++
+ HQ +
Commander [7 PL, 178pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, MV1 Gun Drone, MV7 Marker Drone
Commander [7 PL, 170pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, MV7 Marker Drone

+ Elites +
XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [26 PL, 439pts]: 6x MV1 Gun Drone, 2x MV7 Marker Drone
. Crisis Shas'ui: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Drone controller
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 200pts]: 2x Fusion blaster, Fusion collider, 2x MV5 Stealth Drone, Target lock

+ Fast Attack +
Tactical Drones [4 PL, 62pts]: 4x MV1 Gun Drone, 3x MV7 Marker Drone
Tactical Drones [4 PL, 54pts]: 3x MV1 Gun Drone, 3x MV7 Marker Drone
XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [22 PL, 458pts]: Advanced targeting system, Drone controller, 2x MV84 Shielded Missile Drone

+ Heavy Support +
XV107 R'varna Battlesuit [19 PL, 439pts]: Advanced targeting system, Multi-tracker


The game was Big Guns Never Tire mission from Eternal Wars.
While this meant I had an edge in controlling objectives, it also meant my opponent had greater source of kill points, as I had 4 heavy support choices.
My opponent had fewer drops than me, and he took the first turn as I failed to seize the initiative.

Long story short, I conceded at the end of 2nd battle round as I was nearly tabled.
His commanders and crisis suits decimated a dreadnought, two vindicators on the turn they were set up on the battlefield.
Y'vahra alone wiped out the venerable dreadnought and the redemptor dreadnought easily.
R'varna did not perform well, but it rarely mattered as my army was already crippled.

I heard about the drone saviour protocol before, and tried to whittle down as many drones as possible.
After the devastating tau alpha strike however, my firepower wasn't enough to remove many drones.
When I conceded at the end of battle round two, I only had a drop pod, a librarian and a thunderfire cannon.
Both riptides had 2 wounds chipped off.
My opponent had lost less than ten drones total.

There might be some actions I could have taken to mitigate the alpha strike.
Bubble wrapping vindicators with dreadnoughts and other units, for example.
If my vindicators survived, I might have had the chance to unleash linebreaker bombardment.
However I am not sure how many bodies I need to reliably protect my tanks, against at least 8 18" fusion blasters.

Using Auspex Scan to intercept deep striking crisis suits might be an alternative.
But then again it might be ineffective, as the crisis units contain drones to soak up the wounds from lascannons and demolisher cannons.
Not to mention my units suffering -1 to Hit rolls when using Auspex Scan.

If I were to face similar tau list again soon, what list and tactics would be effective?
Currently, my space marine collection includes tactical and devastator squads with meltaguns, grav cannons, drop pods, and heavy support tanks of all kinds.
But I do not own special characters, rhinos, razorbacks and most of the primaris collection.
And unfortunately, I do not have enough money to add much more into my collection for a while.
Therefore, I do not think using typical space marine build involving Guilliman is feasible.

There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.

Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.

Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.

If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option

the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns

madtankbloke wrote:
There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.

Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.

Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.

If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option

the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns

Thank you for providing your insights.

Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.

Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands

1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ
Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)

- Troops
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 1xSpace Marine : Lascannon & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-plasma & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Plasma Gun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)

- Fast Attack
Land Speeder(Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon)

2) Spearhead Detachment
- HQ
2 Primaris Lieutenants(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Power Sword & Bolt Pistol, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol)

- Heavy Support
Predator(Twin Lascannon, 2xLascannon, Storm Bolter)
Thunderfire Cannon(Thunderfire Cannon, 2xServo-arm, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Bolt Pistol)
Whirlwind(Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher, Storm Bolter)

3) Vanguard Detachment
- HQ
Librarian(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Stave, Bolt Pistol)

- Elite
Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter)
Venerable Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer)
Redemptor Dreadnought(Redemptor Fist, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xStorm Bolter)

Total : 1,999pts
Command Points : 8

Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.

Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.

Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.

Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.

If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option

the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns

Thank you for providing your insights.

Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.

You can use you tactical marines as screening units as well, you just need to trim some of the toys off them to get costs down (those combi weapons for example). The melta-guns are take it or leave it IMO. They will be great if they survive the opening volley, but I wouldn't place odds on that.

Also, welcome to Alpha strike, the edition!

Another thing that drives me nuts with your list is the number of HQ choices. My 1500 point army only uses 1 detachment (vanguard) and 1 HQ. You've got 5 guys here. Captain runs 110ish, Libby is probably 90-100, Techy is ~100? and the lieutenants are about 130ish together? That's 420+ points on guys that can get vaporised by 1 fusion blaster. I'd encourage folding some of your detachments together (cause who needs command points if you have nothing to use them on?), pitch all but 2 of the HQ (Cap and techmarine?), and use those ~200 points to build your screen.

Also wanna note; I think Vindicators are mediocre. Decent staying power for their points, but weak sauce damage output.

All your vehicles should run storm botlers and hunter/killer missiles if able. 8 points for 4 bolt shots and a krak missile is.....really nice. Those storm bolters are great for thinning out drones, and those missiles can bury suits afterwards. Again, it's alpha strike edition so you want to cram as much firepower into the first 2 turns as possible and HK missiles are a great buy for that purpose.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Another thing that drives me nuts with your list is the number of HQ choices. My 1500 point army only uses 1 detachment (vanguard) and 1 HQ. You've got 5 guys here. Captain runs 110ish, Libby is probably 90-100, Techy is ~100? and the lieutenants are about 130ish together? That's 420+ points on guys that can get vaporised by 1 fusion blaster. I'd encourage folding some of your detachments together (cause who needs command points if you have nothing to use them on?), pitch all but 2 of the HQ (Cap and techmarine?), and use those ~200 points to build your screen.

You have a point about cutting out unnecessary characters in the list.
However I found lieutenants' tactical precision aura to be very useful, especially when my high strength weapons usually wound targets on 3+.
I will include them in the list for a while.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.

Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.

Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.

If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option

the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns

Thank you for providing your insights.

Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.

Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands

1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ
Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)

- Troops
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 1xSpace Marine : Lascannon & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-plasma & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Plasma Gun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)

- Fast Attack
Land Speeder(Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon)

2) Spearhead Detachment
- HQ
2 Primaris Lieutenants(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Power Sword & Bolt Pistol, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol)

- Heavy Support
Predator(Twin Lascannon, 2xLascannon, Storm Bolter)
Thunderfire Cannon(Thunderfire Cannon, 2xServo-arm, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Bolt Pistol)
Whirlwind(Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher, Storm Bolter)

3) Vanguard Detachment
- HQ
Librarian(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Stave, Bolt Pistol)

- Elite
Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter)
Venerable Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer)
Redemptor Dreadnought(Redemptor Fist, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xStorm Bolter)

Total : 1,999pts
Command Points : 8

Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.

Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.

Just an option mind you, but I remember back in the day buying a single box of cadian imperial guard and then using bits from the box to make them into space marine scouts with a lot of success for cheap. I used to run 2 full scout squads from that set and they worked well and none of my opponents ever had an issue with them. Granted I had to do a lot of converting but still I thought they looked better than the scout options for the time. (This was back in 4th so YMMV). Also this assumes you have bits lying around to do this with.

Gl though, I hope you let us know how it goes next time. Pinko Tau must pay lol.

Been using the following as a core force, and messing with bits and bobs.

JP Captain with TH/SS
Emp Champ

5x Crusader, 4x Neophyte, 2x PS, Flamer, Combi flamer
Rhino, 2x SB
5x Crusader, PG, Combi PG, Plas Can
Razorback, AC, SB
5x Crusader, PG, Combi PG, Plas Can
Razorback, AC, SB

Predator, AC, 2x LC
Predator, AC, 2x LC

Tried adding a BT chapter master with storm of fire and the BT helm last night. Makes a good mini-guilleman. Having PF/SS (Would take TH but model is PF) and being on a bike means he can move quickly to cover any area within his fire support bubble, and can deal with most threats.

Played a ven dread, wasn't impressed. Think you need 2+, and they need to be gundreads or melee dreads. Gundreads seem mostly overshadowed by preds, though there are advantages to dreads (No diminishing stats, chapter tactics, etc). Pairs of white scars contemptors could be pretty scary, if you have enough target saturation to keep them safe.

10x Van Vets with JP and 1x relic blade have been pretty solid. Been keeping them out of LOS and using them as a counter assault unit. They're not particularly expensive, and throw out a pretty solid amount of attacks, especially when supported by a JP captain.

LRC puts out a lot of shooting, is durable as hell, but becomes an expensive mobile wall once it gets charged. Not sold on it, but has potential.

Had 2x5 company vets in the aforementioned LRC, with the captain and a chaplain. The ability to eat wounds for the chars helps with snipers, they have 4 attacks (Either from 2 chainswords or the bolt pistol shot, depending on kit) for 16 ppm, which is pretty efficient for SM. Considered giving a bunch storm bolters, 3A each and 4 shots at 12" for 18ppm seems pretty fair.

Thoughts right now on a possible 2k list;

Captain on bike, PF, SS (Storm of Fire, Chapter Master, Black Templar helm relic)
Captain with JP, TH, SS
Emperor's Champion

5x Crusader, 4x Neophyte, 2x PS, Flamer, Combi flamer
Rhino, 2x SB
5x Crusader, PG, Combi PG, Plas Can
Razorback, AC, SB, HKM
5x Crusader, PG, Combi PG, Plas Can
Razorback, AC, SB, HKM
5x Crusader, PG, Combi PG, Plas Can
Razorback, AC, SB, HKM

2x2 Company Vets, Power Sword on Sgts
3 Cenobyte Servitors

Tarantula Twin Heavy Bolter Turret
Tarantula Twin Heavy Bolter Turret
Tarantula Twin Heavy Bolter Turret

Predator, AC, 2x LC, HKM
Predator, AC, 2x LC, HKM
Whirlwind, Vengeance launcher, HKM

Battalion means I have 12 CP to start, 3 for the chapter master, and I can spend 1 CP to throw the Shield Eternal or Armor Indom on the JP captain. Points are tight for upgrades, I stripped everything off the melee crusader squad to fit all the elites and HKM on all my fire support vehicles. I could cut the 6x HKM and get 36 pts, which would let me upgrade the company vet sgts to thunderhammers, maybe throw a flamer in the crusader squad or some storm bolters in the vets?

Thoughts?

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.

Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.

Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.

If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option

the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns

Thank you for providing your insights.

Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.

Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands

1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ
Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)

- Troops
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Intercessor Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols, 1xIntercessor Sergeant : Power Sword, 4xIntercessor)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 1xSpace Marine : Lascannon & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)
Tactical Squad(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xSergeant : Combi-plasma & Bolt Pistol, 1xSpace Marine : Plasma Gun & Bolt Pistol, 3xSpace Marine : 3xBoltgun & 3xBolt Pistol)

- Fast Attack
Land Speeder(Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon)

2) Spearhead Detachment
- HQ
2 Primaris Lieutenants(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Power Sword & Bolt Pistol, 1xPrimaris Lieutenant : Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol)

- Heavy Support
Predator(Twin Lascannon, 2xLascannon, Storm Bolter)
Thunderfire Cannon(Thunderfire Cannon, 2xServo-arm, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Bolt Pistol)
Whirlwind(Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher, Storm Bolter)

3) Vanguard Detachment
- HQ
Librarian(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Stave, Bolt Pistol)

- Elite
Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter)
Venerable Dreadnought(Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer)
Redemptor Dreadnought(Redemptor Fist, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2xStorm Bolter)

Total : 1,999pts
Command Points : 8

Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.

Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.

Although scouts are great, anything else can work okay as well. I think this is actually one of the few things Primaris are okay at as well, since they are quite cheap for how durable they are, even if they don't cover as much room and can't deploy as fancy. You can also deploy against the board edge or even in the corner if you are really in danger of a turn one problem.

The main thing is to spread out the infantry so that your tanks don't get punked on the first turn. Once you survive that with most of your good stuff still alive, you can fall back and kill the deep strikers.

Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?

The only thing i can think of is the captain might be more likely to suicide charge something big and will want the hammer more than the chapter master who needs to be alive to give rerolls...but i would try to find the points for both to have TH since he is on a bike and might be fighting stuff.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?

Model has pf atm, and with CM sitting back to babysit, finding the 4 pts for TH is not a major concern.

How are people gearing their non-primaris LTs? Specifically ones with JPs? Bare bones, or tricked out?

IMHO their primary job is as a buff-bot, so I’m loath to toss them into a meat grinder. But while not the meanest of beatsticks, they do have an OK stat line. My low end thought was their MC bolter and a power sword. Worth upgrading to a combi a/o fist/TH? Pistol?

While magnets are always an answer, I like to build mins with their primary wargear first.

Opinions?

I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?

 Nevelon wrote:
How are people gearing their non-primaris LTs? Specifically ones with JPs? Bare bones, or tricked out?

IMHO their primary job is as a buff-bot, so I’m loath to toss them into a meat grinder. But while not the meanest of beatsticks, they do have an OK stat line. My low end thought was their MC bolter and a power sword. Worth upgrading to a combi a/o fist/TH? Pistol?

While magnets are always an answer, I like to build mins with their primary wargear first.

Opinions?

I've been liking power axe or sword depending on how many points I have left (I always equip my HQs last when building a list), and maybe a storm bolter. Ive also toyed with just leaving him with a chainsword and upgrading it to the teeth of terra relic if I think he'll actually see action (especially in lists with 8+ CPs). Also yes to magnets.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?

Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.

PandatheWarrior wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?

Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.

Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.

 Crimson wrote:

PandatheWarrior wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?

Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.

Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.

Ofc, it's at the end of the line.

PandatheWarrior wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PandatheWarrior wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?

Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.

Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.

Ofc, it's at the end of the line.

I think I prefer the fragstorm launchers to the storm bolters. There honestly isn't much in it though, so go with the storm bolters if points are needed.

Definitely krakstorm launchers rather than auto launchers. You're pretty unlikely to want to pop smoke, so the extra shots are worth having.

I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.

 Crimson wrote:
I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.

It honestly bothers me

i kinda wish it was a single all or nothing "frag storm" system rather than 5 frag storm options

it feels like a cluster feth.

 Desubot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.

It honestly bothers me

i kinda wish it was a single all or nothing "frag storm" system rather than 5 frag storm options

it feels like a cluster feth.

Agreed. It's like they designed the thing to slow the game down. You get a ton of S4 shooting essentially, but it's all got different ranges, some is -1ap, some gets +1 to hit planes and so on. So many different dice rolls to make, and so much chance to just forget some guns.

On top of which, we have to have a conversation about which of two basically identical guns to take (the storm bolter or fragstorm). Few decisions in 40k will make less difference than which of these S4 ap0 guns with about the same number of shots at about the same range.

I think on balance I'd go with the fragstorm, because it will take less time to play the thing if it just has several fragstorms and no storm bolters. And it's probably a good thing that all of its firing comes online at 18", which is a safer place to be than 12". I'm not really arguing that they are better, just that you'll hate them less than stormbolters, and probably remember to fire them more often.