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Centurions would probably be better with Grav-Cannons, RoF with no bonus to cover means stuff will drop like flies

I'd say Grav Cannon and Hurricane Bolters are the way to go. They're so expensive for no disernable reason though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd say Grav Cannon and Hurricane Bolters are the way to go. They're so expensive for no disernable reason though.

For 100 pts less, you can have a 10-man Dev Squad with 4 Grav Cannons though. Sure, fewer shots due to no Hurricane Bolters, but more Grav Cannon shots, ablative wounds, and a ton cheaper. Unfortunately, I just don't see the point behind the Dev Cent anymore.

If their base cost was the same as Assault Centurions we'd be cooking.

I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!

Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.

Does this sound like an ok idea?

The orbital bombardment stratagem look very random, too much random in fact in my opinion.
Have you had any experience using it ?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!

Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.

Does this sound like an ok idea?

For me, it seems ok.
Why are you putting the gravis captain with the aggressors and the tacticus one with the hellblaster, any reason ?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Centurion Devestator Squads?

Either with a heavy dakka load out, or with a lascannon load out for anti-tank?

How do they look hanging out with Primaris, do they fit in? Or would lascannon preds just be a better source of anti-tank?

Seems like a good matchup with ancient and apothecary.

They are too expensive. They are effective at what they do, but the platform is just too many points. You can run three Venerable Dreadnoughts with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons for 30 pts more, and have nearly three times the wounds, better WS/BS, and the ability to ignore wounds on a 6.

To be fair, the devastator centurions would have an extra shot each on average with their missiles - though they'd be less accurate so the point is kind of moot.

Devastator centurions suffer from being designed for a previous edition, in which twin lascannons were rather less good and guns didn't do multiple wounds. In this edition they have far too many guns, at far too high a cost, to be a viable infantry model. They are insane glass cannons and the obvious #1 target in any list. They pay so much for their guns, and the base platform is so expensive as well, that they each cost more than some tanks - falling somewhere between the cost of a twin-las razorback and a predator.

The one thing you can do with them is to stick them in a fortification. Even that isn't great, as it means they can't be affected by anything from outside - such as the aura from your captain.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.

Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?

That seems like a bad idea, because I'm not just taking bikes for the special weapon access. I'm taking them because, on top of those special weapons, I'm also getting pretty good Boltgun volume of fire.
If I take Melta and advance, a 44pt model is getting one half of a melta hit.
If I don't advance, I'm getting two thirds of that hit, plus three Boltgun hits. It's a massive drop-off in damage.
Plasma can't advance, but it does have significantly more range than the other possibilities, which handily compensates - I don't NEED to advance to get into range.

That is a valid point, but you won't always turbo boost. It just lets you have the option, plus this is one of the best ways to bring flames and melta gins to bear on valuable targets. Also if you want bolters take scout bikes instead. Anything that isn't flames or melta works just as well on pretty much any other platform.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
I have some questions about the armament !

1/ Melta guns, are they still worth it ?
I have rarely been able to use my melta/ combimelta properly.
The multimeltas are ok, though.
So I was wondering if the melta on tactical and veterans (footlsogging, in rhino, storm, pod, whatever). were still ok, according to you ?

The overloaded plasma rifles (very easy to reroll 1's) wound a rhino on 3+ and do 2 damage, up to 24ps.
A melta only shoots 12 or even 6 for getting special rule,and it takes at least 2 to kill a rhino, now.
Against marine infantry, both wound on 2+. The melta has a slight advantage against characters (1d6 damage), but I have never seen a plasma rifle on its own.
Plasma is very powerful and multipurpose, I do a lot more damages with it, usually.

Would you say that a squad of 4 company veterans with melta guns in a razorback is worst, better, or as good as the same squad with plasma rifles?



2/ Have you ever played a devastator squad full heavy bolters? The stratagem" hellfire shell" can be used for each model firing a heavy bolter (so 5 times here). This would give an average of 6 mortal wounds (with the cherub used).
This is a good way to destroy a vehicle / character/ elite squad, while maintaining a good anti-infantry power.
In general, have you used this stratagem?


3/ And eventually what heavy weapons are your tactical squad equipped with? I use missile launchers, I'm quite happy but I have not tested the heavy bolters nor the grav cannons yet.

1. I find melta to be situationally useful. I take it in lists where I don't want a Gunline component as an alternative to Lascannons. The biggest issue is gettin it to bear where it is needed, this is why I like it on bikers. Against almost everything it is a cheaper Lascannon with a quarter the range. Plan accordingly and it can be useful. Plasma is great, but it has limitations. Against high wound models you will want more, and they require buffs, either through refills or +1 to hit. They are a very good TAC type weapon, but comparing 4 plasma to 4 melta isn't a fair comparison, it depends some on what else is in your list, but even more on what you are using it for. That said I don't typically use transports for melta. The new disembark rules make it hard to guarantee it will get there.

2. I play Match rules, so no. Typically I avoid Heavy Bolters on devastators, or really in general. Only time I change my mind is if I am running Imperial/Crimson fists. I do tend to put them in my scout squads if I have points left over though.

3. I only ever use Grav Cannons as a heavy weapon in my Tacs. Otherwise I prefer plasma/flamer/melta because they should be mobile. Otherwise take devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Centurion Devestator Squads?

Either with a heavy dakka load out, or with a lascannon load out for anti-tank?

How do they look hanging out with Primaris, do they fit in? Or would lascannon preds just be a better source of anti-tank?

Seems like a good matchup with ancient and apothecary.

The problem with them is their price. I will never run the Lascannon/Missile combo. 6 of them are almost 1k points. Basically the only reason to take them is if you want to consolidate buffs. Juicy Interceptor Stratagem, Bolter Drill, +1 to hit... Something like that. Then they can be point efficient but it is still a struggle. I would never take them without an ancient and an apothecary though. Grav is better than the Heavy Bolters unless you are going for Bolter Drill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
The orbital bombardment stratagem look very random, too much random in fact in my opinion.
Have you had any experience using it ?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!

Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.

Does this sound like an ok idea?

For me, it seems ok.
Why are you putting the gravis captain with the aggressors and the tacticus one with the hellblaster, any reason ?

Orbital Bombardment is an attack of opportunity. People like to stick close for buffs, so it can be easy to hit 3-5 units with it. I have used it in two games, and it did work in both. Worth the command points? It is if you aren't running a list that needs a lot of them. If you are building in units to use with them though you'll probably never have it be useful though... Unless Ultras lol.

The Primaris captains are interesting. I would never take the regular one. You take captains like that to be cheap buffers, and a power armor captain does that better. I do like the Gravis one though (Captain Dad-bod). He buffs, and is a good melee deterrent. Ok short ranged gun and a lot of melee threat.

 Captain Garius wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.

Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?

That seems like a bad idea, because I'm not just taking bikes for the special weapon access. I'm taking them because, on top of those special weapons, I'm also getting pretty good Boltgun volume of fire.
If I take Melta and advance, a 44pt model is getting one half of a melta hit.
If I don't advance, I'm getting two thirds of that hit, plus three Boltgun hits. It's a massive drop-off in damage.
Plasma can't advance, but it does have significantly more range than the other possibilities, which handily compensates - I don't NEED to advance to get into range.

That is a valid point, but you won't always turbo boost. It just lets you have the option, plus this is one of the best ways to bring flames and melta gins to bear on valuable targets. Also if you want bolters take scout bikes instead. Anything that isn't flames or melta works just as well on pretty much any other platform.

The reason I'm looking at bikes is because they can fill several roles simultaneously. The Plasma is universally good against 90% of targets, and anything that it can't hurt is either so tanky that other special weapons wouldn't do the trick anyways (Stuff that needs to be killed with Lascannons or other S9+ weapons) or hordey units that the Boltguns will provide adequate utility against. They're also relatively cheap access to special weapons, point-for-point, they're pretty tanky and require either a pretty high amount of firepower (60+ bolter or lasgun hits, if you don't have cover) or else fairly strong, dedicated firepower. They are fast enough to get where they need to be, and are very damage-efficient. (Three models can put out as much firepower as nearly a full squad of Tactical Marines, at least if we pretend that tactical marines take two Special Weapons instead of a Heavy weapon.)

If I *just* wanted to spam special weapons with no consideration for anything else, I'd just... I dunno, jam Company Veterans or combi-weapon Sternguard into a Drop Pod.

Orbital Bombardment is an attack of opportunity. People like to stick close for buffs, so it can be easy to hit 3-5 units with it. I have used it in two games, and it did work in both. Worth the command points? It is if you aren't running a list that needs a lot of them. If you are building in units to use with them though you'll probably never have it be useful though... Unless Ultras lol.

The Primaris captains are interesting. I would never take the regular one. You take captains like that to be cheap buffers, and a power armor captain does that better. I do like the Gravis one though (Captain Dad-bod). He buffs, and is a good melee deterrent. Ok short ranged gun and a lot of melee threat.

Orbital Bombardment is WAY too expensive for the output. Let's say you've got six or seven units within the potential blast radius (Which is about the most you're going to get.) Well, first, you're liable not to get all of those units because the actual blast radius is randomized. So we'll say five actual units get hit, unless you spend ANOTHER command point. If we assume a couple of those units are characters at the center of a buff battery, you're going to get like... Five Mortal Wounds in total, spread across several units, and that's the ideal circumstance, where things are really, really tightly grouped.

Those three Command Points are MUCH better spent elsewhere.

I like just having orbital bombardment in my pocket. Your opponent just knowing that you have it really makes them pay attention or get punished.

What's everyone's opinion on the best unit to drop out of a stormraven with an ironclad as an in your face assault?

Which chapter are we talking about?

greatgut wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the best unit to drop out of a stormraven with an ironclad as an in your face assault?

I'm looking at sending 5 TH/SS terminators and Pedro. Crimson fists, obviously.

I'm not sending an ironclad as well, because overkill, making the SR too high priority a target and because contemptors are just always better.

<3 Contemptors.

Contemptors, venerables and ironclads are all cool enough that I want to make a vanilla detachment for BA. Ironclad chainfist/hurricane bolter combo seems more versatile and competitive than a Furioso.

 combatcotton wrote:
Which chapter are we talking about?

Playing Blood Ravens, so flexible. Considering Ultramarines at the moment

If you really want to send the dread, I'd suggest something anti horde that doesn't cost a fortune. Vanguard vets with 2 CW and maybe a power weapon or two just in case.

I would drop either Vanguard or LC Terminators of some kind. I've actually has okay luck with the LC loadout this edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I would drop either Vanguard or LC Terminators of some kind. I've actually has okay luck with the LC loadout this edition.

If using LC termies I think your best option is to use Cataphractii or Tartaros - rather than assault terminators. They are cheaper, and better.

Thing is, I found it better to give them a storm bolter rather than their second LC. Then I found it better to give them power fists than their first LC. So I'm turning my cataphractii into normal fist/bolter guys. They are pretty good against everything, tough, and don't cost that much.

I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.

Tartaros actually. Cataphractii are the slow ones with the 4++.

In any case they cost the same or less than standard assault termies, are better, and have far nicer models. So if you want lightning claws you should never use the standard assault terminators.

5 Points more for +1 move? For a unit you plan on spilling at the enemy's door step anyway?

Unless you make use of their unique weapon options this is not worth it from my point of view.

Edit: I think we are talking past each other. My statement is regarding tartarus vs. regular SB+PF termis

Would have the terminators riding in the Stormraven to better guarantee that charge, or dropping in close by?

That Cataphractii 4++ is really nice and often you are deep striking in anyway for double tap storm bolters and the 9" charge is consistent for anyone deep striking regardless of their normal move.

only reason you would ever take the normal terminators are for 3++ storm shields or the ability to reposition back into your own deployment. its good though you do abandon ANY character you deep strike with

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.

Tartaros actually. Cataphractii are the slow ones with the 4++.

In any case they cost the same or less than standard assault termies, are better, and have far nicer models. So if you want lightning claws you should never use the standard assault terminators.

I already knew that. I've got two squads of pure TH/SS and the Tartaros with all Claws. It's worked pretty decently. I typically use Asterion with them to get the reroll on charges, which frees me a different Chapter Tactic besides Black Templars (which I do with a detachment of Carcharodons). I've used Salamanders and Ultramarines and White Scars, and I'm planning on Raven Guard or Iron Hands next (both of which help on the durability end, though Raven Guard works out better because I can infiltrate stuff instead of Deep Striking and get a guaranteed 1st turn charge against dumb things like Conscripts, ergo opening up hole for the Assault Terminators to go through and the scouts. Off topic though).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

greatgut wrote:
Would have the terminators riding in the Stormraven to better guarantee that charge, or dropping in close by?

Possibly, but if I wanted to just use it as a gunboat that would interfere. Plus I do what I can to get rerolls on charges, so I'd rather drop off something less durable like Vanguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 combatcotton wrote:
5 Points more for +1 move? For a unit you plan on spilling at the enemy's door step anyway?

Unless you make use of their unique weapon options this is not worth it from my point of view.

Edit: I think we are talking past each other. My statement is regarding tartarus vs. regular SB+PF termis

It's one point on each model. Totally worth it.

Mandragola wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?

I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.

Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.

Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.

Having faced off against one, that T 9 is a pretty big deal. Its damage output varies with the main gun obviously, but since its backed up with 8 more lascannons it usually killed one or two big things a round in spectacular fashion. The only tricky bit with it is target choice, since you declare what you're shooting at and with what weapons before you roll for the Volcano Cannon. The very first game I saw it in, first turn it rolled double ones, plinking a few points off a Knight while firing its Lascannons at other things. The second turn he rolled boxcars, and plowed through the Knight like it wasn't there, but I think some of the Lascannons were wasted because he declared they would also fire at the Knight.

As we are speaking about terminators, and cataphractii, what are your feelings about them ?
I like my assault termi, but the standard ones are lacklustre, they are lacking in firepower and lacking in durability.
I have great hope for cataphractii (haven't field them yet).
The 4++ and LC instead of the -1 to hit powerfists seem very sweet.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?

I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.

Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.

Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.

Having faced off against one, that T 9 is a pretty big deal. Its damage output varies with the main gun obviously, but since its backed up with 8 more lascannons it usually killed one or two big things a round in spectacular fashion. The only tricky bit with it is target choice, since you declare what you're shooting at and with what weapons before you roll for the Volcano Cannon. The very first game I saw it in, first turn it rolled double ones, plinking a few points off a Knight while firing its Lascannons at other things. The second turn he rolled boxcars, and plowed through the Knight like it wasn't there, but I think some of the Lascannons were wasted because he declared they would also fire at the Knight.

Yep, that 2d6 roll is going to be massive every turn. I guess it's a good thing to save CPs for.

Good point on the T9. That does make it significantly tougher against nearly any weapon that's likely to be fired at it.

On recent points here;

Centurion Devastators; I've run a 3 man squad with grav cannons and missiles. Holy crap is it a lot of fire power. Drop them under a captain or Guilliman aura and laugh as power armored stuff evaporates. I ran an apothecary with them last time to erase wounds. That said....paying like 130 points a guy for T5 W3 2+ save is awful. Dakka dreads are something like twice as survivable for the points and have comparable firepower. Got my fingers crossed that the "Chapter Approved" book later this year drops their points cost by like 20 per model.

What to deliver in a Storm Raven with an Ironclad; This is an issue I've been considering myself. I love my seismic hammer ironclad (my land raider smasher!), and a Storm Raven is an absolute beat down for it's points at the moment. So, what to transport? I've tried 180 points worth of base vanguard vets. 30 attacks isn't bad, with 10 bolt pistols as well. 5 TH/SS terminators is 11 thunder hammer attacks and decent staying power. The issue with both options is....there's better units with shooting for less. I mean, my aggressor squad for 129 points can dump around the same amount of damage out as the vanguard can, but do it at an 18" range, while moving and running, so they don't even need the transport. God help you if they can stand their ground and double tap. 11 TH attacks is either over kill against a vehicle or dread or something, or not nearly enough to cut through larger units of cannon fodder. At the moment, I'm leaning towards not putting anything in the Storm Raven, better to just spend the points elsewhere and not put all my eggs in one basket.

Bikes; Love em. They are a mainstay choice in my armies these days. I run 2 3 man squads, one is double plasma and one is double melta. I also run 3 attack bikes split up as FO slots warrant. They are fast, flexible and have decent survivability for their points. I also like to run a bike captain with a shield eternal and powerfist (would be thunder hammer, but the model has a powerfist). The whole group of 10 bikes generally sticks together to abuse the captain's aura, and will throw down something like 40 bolter shots, 4 plasma, 3 multi-metla and 2 melta gun shots in ideal situations.

Assault termies, of any variant, are really poor. While they got a little cheaper, their movement severely hampers their ability to chase down anything they want to bash. You DS in or get dropped, fail that one charge, and you're sitting like ducks the rest of the game. SftS would help a lot, as long as you get that first turn.
I'd take vanguards with jump packs TH/SS, everytime, over termies.

They really don't fail the charge that often. Been using Black Templars for rerolls or Asterion, and they get there about half the time.