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2017/10/03 20:17:48
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
After reviewing the Librarian powers and Primaris character equipment further, I think I'll start with something like Kantor, a Captain, and a Lieutenant.
It's a shame the Primaris LT can't take a Power Sword and a gun. I'd pay 10 more points for the extra wound and attack over a "regular" LT w/ Power Sword, but I don't expect him to be in combat *that* much and the ability to take a Master-crafted Boltgun on the normal LT seems nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 20:18:03
2023/04/13 20:40:21
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
Looks like a pretty fun list, if I had to pick something you are pretty low on high end AT. Making the swap from Aggressors to the Vindicator might help a bit, you also might favor a second dev squad over a Hellblaster squad, depending on your local scene.
I"d be a little worried about a Rhino being able to get your Sternguard where they need to go, but with two Razorbacks and a Vindicator it might have enough distractions to make it.
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2017/10/04 04:47:49
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
My favourite aspect of collecting Warhammer is that I get to fill my room with models of muscular men without my peers' judgement.
2017/10/04 04:56:15
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I guess I would have to do the math on what is better, my squad of Hellblasters or my Missile Launcher Devastators Squad. I imagine once the Hellblasters get in RF range, they eclipse the Missile Launchers. They will probably be near one of the HQs as well, so they will be rerolling some of their hits and wounds.
As for the Vindicator, I can't really make up my mind. I will probably run the list both ways and see if it even does anything effective. I worry I might be sacrificing anti-horde potential with not a lot gained.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
The issue is that I don't really have the points for a Lascannon Predator. A Twin Lascannon Razorback might be a good option. It would leave me with 21 pts to do who-knows-what with though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 05:03:04
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess I would have to do the math on what is better, my squad of Hellblasters or my Missile Launcher Devastators Squad. I imagine once the Hellblasters get in RF range, they eclipse the Missile Launchers. They will probably be near one of the HQs as well, so they will be rerolling some of their hits and wounds.
As for the Vindicator, I can't really make up my mind. I will probably run the list both ways and see if it even does anything effective. I worry I might be sacrificing anti-horde potential with not a lot gained.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
The issue is that I don't really have the points for a Lascannon Predator. A Twin Lascannon Razorback might be a good option. It would leave me with 21 pts to do who-knows-what with though.
Could trim some units here or there. Maybe some Sternguard or something like that. TBH I haven't been too fond of the apothecary either.
Edit: You can take some more HK Missiles to fill out some more points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 05:38:42
My favourite aspect of collecting Warhammer is that I get to fill my room with models of muscular men without my peers' judgement.
2017/10/04 05:53:01
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
My Sternguard are going perform Ultimate Sternguard Attack Pattern at least once before I ever consider trimming them down. I need them to be near Pedro(reroll to all misses) and the Lieutenant(reroll 1s to wound), get the Targeting Data Skull buff from the Rhino Primaris(+1 to hit), and trigger Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship. Possibly give the Captain Storm of Fire for extra AP. Maximum Bolt Death!
I actually already trimmed out two 5-man Sternguard Squads to make room for the two Hellblaster Squads. They seemed like they were a better option than 5 Combi-Melta and 5 Combi-Plasma.
To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
2017/10/04 12:46:31
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Mandragola wrote: To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
I agree in part, though I think Casvalremdeikun (phew!) was suggesting this as more of a "that would be so cool to pull of once for fun" rather than a serious strategy.
I've been using a suad of 9 Sternguard in a drop pod together with a Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait to great effect. It's pricey but not that pricey and you're pretty much guaranteed to get the alpha strike off for only one command point (diregarding bolter drill, which I find underpowered). I use this unit to put pressure on the enemy center of gravity while the rest of my army shoots/advances at it. I'm currently experimenting with deep striking a second unit along with them, like some Terminators or Vanguard Veterans, and that's showing promise too.
As you can see, this leaves me a little bit over half a list to build!
Clearly, I need a 3rd heavy. I'm leaning towards a Devastator squad with Lascannons or a Predator with Lascannons. In the case of Devs, is it worth taking extra wounds?
Some thoughts on the options I'm considering:
1) Aggressors - If I'm understanding correctly, these put out 6+D6 shots per model and would bring a lot of anti-Horde to the table. I don't think I'd run the Flamer variant.
2) Dreadnoughts - I've always been a fan of Dreads, both fluff and rules-wise. At the time I quit playing, Dakkadreads were the norm. It looks like the Assault Cannon might be a better option now?
3) Sternguard - I like these conceptually, but they seem expensive for what they do. I'm not sure I need more Boltguns either (even with AP-2).
4) Bike squads - These look great this edition, especially as an anti-Horde option. It looks to me like each bike would get 5 shots w/n 12" and I like their ability to rapidly respond to threats. In a way, I'd view these as competitors to Aggressors.
5) Devastators - Classic. My main question is whether I'd take extra wounds. Unfortunately, I don't think Missiles look very viable now, especially compared to Lascannons. Back in my day, we always took 4 Missile Launchers!
6) Predator - I've always been a fan of this tank and the changes to vehicles make it even more appealing. I can't imagine not taking the Twin Lascannon over the Autocannon. I think I'd go ahead and take Lascannon sponsons as well.
7) Razorback - The twin Assault Cannon variant looks like the way to go now. I always enjoyed playing Las/Plasbacks, so I can see taking a couple of these, even if it bothers me conceptually that they can't even carry Primaris Marines...
8) Flyers - I got out of the game before these became options. I'd be curious for feedback as to their viability.
9) If I were to take several vehicles, I could even see taking a Techmarine (or swapping it in if I don't need a 4th detachment HQ). I'm glad they made his repair rule more viable than when I last played.
Does it sound like I'm on the right track? I'd appreciate any advice.
2017/10/04 13:43:38
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Mandragola wrote: To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
Pedro Kantor does not force anything. You *CAN* reroll 2s, not *MUST*. Sternguard work fine on their own. What I want to see is what happens when all of those things stack together. This combo requires way too much positioning to ever get off. Ultimately, they will probably be mostly on the receiving end of Bolter Drill at any given time. The Rhino is more likely going to be in support of the Hellblasters so they can overcharge with impunity.
Ahh ok. If it's an optional reroll then that's different. I was thinking of Celestine forcing seraphim to reroll passed saves.
I'm still not a fan of sternguard - I'd just field intercessors - but if it works for you then fine. The various buffing characters make more sense if there are other units they can buff as well.
2007/10/01 05:01:19
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Mandragola wrote: Ahh ok. If it's an optional reroll then that's different. I was thinking of Celestine forcing seraphim to reroll passed saves.
I'm still not a fan of sternguard - I'd just field intercessors - but if it works for you then fine. The various buffing characters make more sense if there are other units they can buff as well.
I have both. The Sternguard are more for heavy infantry.
Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/10/04 19:41:48
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Don't mind slayer, he's the resident X unit is garbage guy. (Tacs, Pods, Bolter Scouts, ect)
Drop pods can be effective up to moderately competitive games provided they are carrying something like Sternguard or two Grav Dev squads that need to get in close, and are too high priority to make it there by Rhino.
They aren't my favorite, but an option for specific cases.
I can also vouch for the Stormtalon and Stormraven, great units. Although the raven might get nerfed in chapter approved.
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2017/10/04 21:24:55
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
Sternguard are one of the few units that Drop Pods actually work for. Unfortunately Drop Pods just aren't worth the extra points over a Rhino. They have no mobility and are fragile comparatively. Offensive capacity is better on a Rhino as well.
Perth wrote: Don't mind slayer, he's the resident X unit is garbage guy. (Tacs, Pods, Bolter Scouts, ect)
Drop pods can be effective up to moderately competitive games provided they are carrying something like Sternguard or two Grav Dev squads that need to get in close, and are too high priority to make it there by Rhino.
They aren't my favorite, but an option for specific cases.
I can also vouch for the Stormtalon and Stormraven, great units. Although the raven might get nerfed in chapter approved.
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
Sternguard are one of the few units that Drop Pods actually work for. Unfortunately Drop Pods just aren't worth the extra points over a Rhino. They have no mobility and are fragile comparatively. Offensive capacity is better on a Rhino as well.
Drop Pods add at minimum a 10 point tax on Sternguard and at max 20 points. It isn't worth the cost in its current iteration. Needs to be around the cost of a Rhino or slightly lower.
With Storm of Fire they can do quite a number on transports as well. Mine have even accounted for a couple of Ghost Arks
I forgot to address this.
I haven't fully committed to making Pedro my Warlord(the CF trait BLOWS GOATS). The Power Fist Captain would more than likely have Storm of Fire though if he is my Warlord. It'll be good for both the Sternguard and Intercessors (whichever he ends up closer to).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 23:10:56
I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 00:35:00
2017/10/05 08:24:13
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Your deciding what can and can't be discussed on this forum marks you as one of the great men of our age and I salute you. Have an exalt!
tpogs wrote: I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 08:27:17
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
I mean, they're 75 points for 18 s4 shots, 7cc attacks, 18' movement, 6 wounds, and t5. What's not to love. There are definitely more efficient things in the codex (Razorbacks) but the Scouts have been consistently good and fun picks in friendly games for me.
General Helstrom wrote: Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Sorry, I have no recent experience with these guys. Last time I ran any was in 4th or 5h. A little slower than the scouts but they can be kitted out to be more killy and or of course a bit more durable with their 3+. Funnily enough they're worse in CC because they lack the Scout bikers CC weapons. But Alas, they also cost a lost more once you buy those special weapons and in this edition I'd rather spend those points on Devs or another unit that I can huddle around my Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
2020/10/05 13:57:00
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I really want to see my speeders drop like 10pts, there's just no point taking them over Scout Bikes or a Stormtalon right now.
That would be nice. I'd also settle for power of the machine spirit or something similar. I have 2 or 3 typhoons that I just can't justify running, but a lot of that has to do with how overcosted missile launchers are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 14:51:13
2017/10/05 14:57:09
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Your deciding what can and can't be discussed on this forum marks you as one of the great men of our age and I salute you. Have an exalt!
tpogs wrote: I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Right now we need to be coming up with strategies on the best ways to deal with Guard, and talking about garbage units isn't the way to do it. It isn't up for discussion because theres no results to make any of those units worth talking about again. Not like they were worth talking about in the first place. Now if a few people placed in the top 20 with Drop Pods it would be worth talking about. That hasn't happened.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
I mean, they're 75 points for 18 s4 shots, 7cc attacks, 18' movement, 6 wounds, and t5. What's not to love. There are definitely more efficient things in the codex (Razorbacks) but the Scouts have been consistently good and fun picks in friendly games for me.
General Helstrom wrote: Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Sorry, I have no recent experience with these guys. Last time I ran any was in 4th or 5h. A little slower than the scouts but they can be kitted out to be more killy and or of course a bit more durable with their 3+. Funnily enough they're worse in CC because they lack the Scout bikers CC weapons. But Alas, they also cost a lost more once you buy those special weapons and in this edition I'd rather spend those points on Devs or another unit that I can huddle around my Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
Well Bikers can take Chainswords, and with melee buffers like Tyberos, Khan, and Helbrecht it's better than the Bolt Pistols. Plus you don't get Bolt Pistol shots with the better weapons anyway so why wouldn't you switch?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 14:59:09
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/10/05 16:55:32
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Right now we need to be coming up with strategies on the best ways to deal with Guard, and talking about garbage units isn't the way to do it. It isn't up for discussion because theres no results to make any of those units worth talking about again. Not like they were worth talking about in the first place. Now if a few people placed in the top 20 with Drop Pods it would be worth talking about. That hasn't happened.
Good thing we have you to decide that for us. Otherwise this thread might be about all kinds of tactics! Your leadership is inspirational, sir. Inspirational.
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
Ha, I can see the amusement value in a thunder hammer wielding scout biker! I can also see it not being very effective though
I like the idea of a barebones squad, maybe with a storm bolter like Flood suggested because that is one of the best ways to spend 2 points in the game ever. Cheap and really fast and versatile. Excellent way to take down flights of Tau drones too I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 16:55:48
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Tarantula Sentry Guns are FA aswell...
A Twin Heavy Bolter Tarantula is 27pts, so 81pts for filling your FA needs in a Brigade
The Twin Assault Cannon Tarantula is 45pts and doesnt have any targeting restrictions, though it is probably limited by the 24" range on a immobile plattform
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 18:07:27
2017/10/05 19:08:42
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Tarantula Sentry Guns are FA aswell...
A Twin Heavy Bolter Tarantula is 27pts, so 81pts for filling your FA needs in a Brigade
The Twin Assault Cannon Tarantula is 45pts and doesnt have any targeting restrictions, though it is probably limited by the 24" range on a immobile plattform
Yeah the Assault Cannon has a superb statline, but the range kills it for me. I'm sticking with the Heavy Bolter one for now.
Which really does merit discussion. Guard is coming out, and really to prepare for tournaments we have several armies to be wary of. Guard with their meat shields are gonna be tough, because we can't get the real damage dealers through that aren't Devastators or Predators. Now, while a little expensive for the job, Tarantula Turrets can provide a wall against Deep Strike attacks and typically have good weapons against those, assuming they live.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/10/05 23:11:04
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 23:11:39
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