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Martel732 wrote:
I use shotgun scouts. They work fine.

Being able to advance and shoot them is a super clutch tool at specific moments. Doesn't come up often but it does!

Being S5 at short range is nice too.

Scouts exist to die so other things don't. If they do any damage at all, I consider myself ahead.

Keeping my other guns firing will cause far, far more damage than trying to use them as scalpels instead of shields.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Scouts exist to die so other things don't. If they do any damage at all, I consider myself ahead.

Keeping my other guns firing will cause far, far more damage than trying to use them as scalpels instead of shields.

Feel the same way. The only upgrade I'd consider for them is a Storm Bolter for 2 points, everything else is just wasted on a unit that is pure chaff.

I find it really interesting that there are such distinct camps favouring either scouts, tactical marines or intercessors for troops.

The guy who won heat 1 of the UKGT a few weeks ago had 4 (I think, or possibly 5) ultramarine tactical squads with lascannons as his troops. The guy who came second had 3 ravenguard intercessor squads. There were quite a lot of scouts around too.

All troop options are viable. The different units are not all the same though and can't be used in the same ways. I think that my least favourite kind is probably the 5 man double plasma suicide squad. It isn't particularly cheap, it doesn't do all that much damage and it only gets to fire once (if at all) before it gets killed.

There's definitely something to be said for a 55 point scout squad armed with whatever junk you want to give them. They open up deployment shenanigans that nobody else can really duplicate.

On the other hand, it's not actually necessary to deploy forward to bubble wrap your army. You can achieve the same result by deploying the units you want to protect further back, and putting other stuff along the front - stuff like intercessors.

Actually my favourite units for bubble wrap are flyers and repulsors.- at least against people who want to charge you - not against someone with 10 wraithguard coming out of the webway!.The great thing about them is that they can't easily be charged by people coming out of deep strike, and they are very tough to shoot dead. Nobody wants to overcharge plasma guns at a hard-to-hit flyer.

Intercessors are my favourite troops because they kill the most stuff. On the face of it they don't look all that dangerous but over the course of a game their damage stacks up. The huge advantage they have over other troop types is that they stay alive for much longer. It requires a serious investment of firepower to remove an intercessor squad that's in cover and far away, so people don't bother. So they get to keep plugging away, and sometimes step up to rapid fire and charge people. It's pretty handy to be twice as tough and do twice as much damage as any other troop option in cc as well.

And of course you can also use them as bubble wrap. The difference is that, unlike scouts or tacticals, some of them will often survive, hit back if charged, and continue to play a part in the game afterwards.

Intercessors aren't good at killing the units I care most about, and give up points FAST to 2+ damage weapons. I think they are too expensive at 20 ppm for how 8th ed plays. I think intercessor kill the LEAST stuff on a per point basis, which makes them poor.

I was in the Intercessor camp but once my opponents wiser up and started bringing 2D damage my opinion soured in a hurry, and I’ve switched to Tacticals. I may buy some Scouts yet.

2 damage weapons are all kinds of win.

They really are. I was using them extensively against death Guard to try and brute force my way past DR rolls, and that tactic goes both ways so my Primaris are basically benchwarmers now and I spent a couple hundred bucks on mini marines lol.

2D is the new ID

Martel732 wrote:
2 damage weapons are all kinds of win.

Well, or maybe just volume of fire / attacks, for those who consider Primaris Marine are tough, I think they haven't notice the feel of confronting Ad Mech Dakka robot or hordes of Tzaangors / Genestealers.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2 damage weapons are all kinds of win.

Well, or maybe just volume of fire / attacks, for those who consider Primaris Marine are tough, I think they haven't notice the feel of confronting Ad Mech Dakka robot or hordes of Tzaangors / Genestealers.

Yep, I've noticed those things. It takes exactly twice as much firepower to kill primaris guys with that kind of weapon as it takes to kill tactical marines. Scouts die more easily.

I'm not saying that intercessors are invincible. I'm saying they are tougher than other troops. They cost only slightly more than a sniper scout squad or a tactical squad with equipment.

2D weapons do exist, but if people are using them on your intercessors in the early game then that's probably a good thing, because they are ignoring your more valuable stuff. My experience is that people fire their big guns at higher-priority targets than intercessors, who end up on the receiving end of stuff like bolters, lasguns and assorted close combat weapons. The vast majority of these do 1 damage.

Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

Had a unit of ad mech destroyers 1 shot my interessors unit of 10. Then I 1 shot their destroyers with 4 lascannons from my repulsor. I guess I should call myself fortunate he didn't kill my 340 point tank and isntead killed my 204 point troop unit. In the end though he made the right choice - if those 10 interssessors got into melle he was done for. In general - Things that are good at killing intersessors are good at killing everything in the game. So because intersessors are actually hard to kill by anti infantry weapons they draw dedicated anti tank fire. This is all I need them to do really. As with everything in this game - they do a lot better the more units of them you take.

Martel732 wrote:
Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.

Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.

You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Tactical marines with a special weapon do more over the course of a game than intercessors ever will, and have ablative wounds to protect the good guns.

Intercessors cost more than a Sternguard; more durable against small arms fire but the Sternguard has almost twice the output of firepower for 1 point less. I think most opponents would call Sternguard a valuable target; they’re cheaper than Intercessors.

On another note, I tried out a pair ok Bike squads, 3 man units with 2 meltaguns each. They were gold; their movement really can’t be understated, and a Storm Bolter on the sergeant means they can put pressure on chaff as well. Playing Maelstrom having multiple fast moving units was the key to victory.

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.

Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.

My 55 pt scout squads are what let me beat Magnus in every game I play against him, by screening him and whatever other aggressive elements they have from getting to my tanks.

Dying so other things don't is an EXTREMELY important role.

Which is why conscripts are so powerful.

I can't believe people are trying to argue for Intercessors in this thread.

100 pts for 5 shots outside 15 sucks so bad though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.

Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.

We can agree to disagree. I think intercessors don't do much for their points.

Intercessors don't do much offensively in range for the points, but there's a lot to be said when the only real effective killer for them is Plasma that needs to be overcharged, Autocannons, and various AT weapons. This is why they're a better static bubble wrap whereas Scouts are one that can be placed more offensively.

Regarding melee it's a differing story. You need to inflict 2 Wounds for them to lose 2 attacks. That ain't bad. They degrade more slowly.

Offense/pt is the biggest marine problem, though. This is why i dislike primaris in general.

Martel732 wrote:
Offense/pt is the biggest marine problem, though. This is why i dislike primaris in general.

They solve the defensive problem though, which is why I like them. I have other things for offense like Sternguard.

When it comes to Ints and durability, I generally think that durability on the lowest priority target, especially on a unit with a small foot print and no deployment options, doesn't matter much when most games are decided by turn 3.

Slugfest games are where Intercessors excel, but it seems much more common that one side runs away with the game, leaving their durability under used. I'd rather have extra utility from Scouts, or extra damage from Tacs.

Edit: I am at least appreciative that this is something worth discussion and one troop choice doesn't run circles around all the others. I'm really hoping Chapter Approved doesn't come around and massively slash prices on all the new stuff to try and sell models. Some cuts may be okay, like the Redemptor, but I hope they know better than to make 15 point Intercessors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Offense/pt is the biggest marine problem, though. This is why i dislike primaris in general.

They solve the defensive problem though, which is why I like them. I have other things for offense like Sternguard.

I remain very, very skeptical. Almost every game against primaris has ended with me curb stomping them. Because they can't kill my models. The functional firepower of a Repulsor is a joke for the cost. Since I've given up on CC, primaris marines are an easy win.

Also, I play against a LOT of Nidzilla atm, and the harpy's gun makes a mockery of all things Primaris. Even their defensive advantages are only situational.

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

18 pts for a single shot is terrible utility. Is 15 that much better? It makes them die twice as fast against AP 0 weapons. I don't know. Non-ratling snipers are just trash in general. I guess sniper drones are good, too, but they are at least Str 5.

 Karthicus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

Snipers are an annoyance to get people a bit paranoid with their characters. They are disposable trash. I want them to die so other things don’t die. If they are harder to kill than Sternguard...vanguard...devastators...etc. then odds are my sacrificial units won’t be sacrificed to anything. Using them as deepstrike denial using their deployment special rules (that you’re paying for) means they get deployed forward compared to other things and means they’re the first things to be overran with melee, where their cloaks are useless.

A 15 pt model is NOT disposable trash. I can get almost 4X the board coverage with guardsmen.

We don’t all play soup. There are those who think don’t like the taste. I guess the answer to area denial in this thread is just a blanket statement that reads “conscripts”? I don’t see them in codex space marines though. I play marines, not Imperium.

Same here. But I'm illustrating why I consider marines to be a poor list in 8th. Lack of effective screens.

I think guardsmen are better than conscripts at this point at area denial. They need less babysitting and they can take a lascannon.