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If you are using scouts for a screen, why would you equip them with sniper rifles? In my mind if I am going to pay for those sniper rifles, I am going to put them in a position that they can get a few rounds of fire without having to worry about getting stuck in melee.

If their objective is to die in place of others, then I would think they are better suited with a boltgun or shotgun.

Shotguns, baby! Accept no substitutes

Because regular scouts do nothing but die. At least snipers can plink a wound or two off a backfield character before they’re dead.

But they cost 4 pts less before they die. That's a lot more screening power. I don't care about plinking characters. I'm trying to take what they are buffing.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.

They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.

Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.

My 55 pt scout squads are what let me beat Magnus in every game I play against him, by screening him and whatever other aggressive elements they have from getting to my tanks.

Dying so other things don't is an EXTREMELY important role.

Which is why conscripts are so powerful.

How exactly do you screen a flying unit that moves twice with 5 man squads? You really can't. Conscripts take up like 6x more space on the table than scouts do. That's why they are powerful. They aren't powerful so much anymore that you only need to kill half the squad to kill the whole unit though. Scouts can't screen - they take up too little space. They can screen for a smite but that's about it. Magnus can still fly over them and assault your tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scouts took a major nerf this edition with the land speeder storm doubling in price - while losing the ability to jink - and losing it's blinding weapon. Scouts are actually at tactical squad levels of uselessness EXCEPT they cost less so are marginally less useless.

Scouts: Bubble wrap for Guilliman. 3 5-man squads with Sniper rifles and a ML. With the Guilly-buff those 12 snipers become a concern for enemy characters within 36”. 3 MLs become much more useful. Camo cloaks if you can deploy into cover.

Intercessors: If you play them, you need to be shooting the auxiliary grenade launcher EVERY turn. Its a 1 point ML.

If I’m fielding Guilly, I use scouts. If not, I use Intercessors. For SM, the troop tax really is a tax. That, or you are going to have a lot of Vanguards, Spearheads and Outriders.

The aux launcher is useful but missile launcher? Let’s keep our expectations in check. S6 -1AP D3 damage and S8 AP-2 D6 damage are considerably different beasts.

 Karthicus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.

Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.

If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.

There are no good answers here, because the marines have zero good screening units. Same reason the BA tactica thread has had no consensus for 10 years. No good answers.

Back to the troop discussion eh? I like it!

Tacs really only have a place if you spam them with heavy weapons. That seems to be the only lists using them that are actually doing well.

Scouts are the best forward screen we have, and we need a screen most of the time. Snipers I am not sold on. I think they are very expensive for what they actually do... that being said I think running 2+ squads is the only way to run them if you are running them at all.

Intercessors are my favorite personally. Not because I think that they are better, but because of how I use them. I use them as my screen, and typically with the RG tactic as a Raptors player. They do a good job of drawing fire, and if not I assault with them. They are actually decent in combat with non dedicated cc units. Plus they have decent shooting and good durability. To leverage this you need to build your list to match though. As RG it's great because I can take a couple dreads and I am usually bringing some Hellblasters or Centurions as well... sometimes both. So the Intercessors are either left alone, saving my more important stuff, or the most likely option people are actually shooting 1d weapons at them. This is good because those 1d weapons would still hurt my other stuff too, so it lets them utilize their durability.

At the end of the day I start with 3 intercessor squads, and depending on how many points I need to cut when I am done list building I start turning them into scouts.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.

Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.

If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.

It makes them a 15 point model with less survivability than a 13 point Tactical Marine, already not very survivable, for the price.

Does that help put things into perspective?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?

Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?

I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.

Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.

Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.

If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.

It makes them a 15 point model with less survivability than a 13 point Tactical Marine, already not very survivable, for the price.

Does that help put things into perspective?

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).

Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.

Personally I'm still happy with my intercessors - particularly because they ignore cover anyway so scouts only get a 5+ save against me, regardless of their cloaks.

 Captain Garius wrote:

Tacs really only have a place if you spam them with heavy weapons. That seems to be the only lists using them that are actually doing well.

This is my experience too. Tactical squads are actually a decent place to put lascannons, because of the buffer before each gun dies. That's what the guy who won heat 1 used. There's some logic in this approach as you need some troops and you need some lascannons, so why not combine them?

This is relatively difficult to counter, as the units are happy to stay back and zap away, so they need a fair bit of attention to remove. The units are also cheap enough that you can use them as screens if you need to, especially against zerging armies that lascannons aren't brilliant against in the first place.

Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).

Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.

You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.

Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.

 Perth wrote:
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.

Other choices are:

Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.

Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:



Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.

 tpogs wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).

Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.

You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.

Guilty as charged. I am indeed dismissing what 5 shotguns can do in that situation. They can kill 3 genestealers on average, if they are somehow able to get a shot off at close range. Doing this requires that they are within 6" of genestealers, which is problematic to say the least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.

This is fair comment. Cloaks definitely are overpriced. A scout with a cloak clearly isn't worth more than a tactical marine. You could perhaps argue that their scouting ability mean that they'd be worth the same amount as a tactical marine if you gave them cloaks, but certainly not more.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Perth wrote:
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.

Other choices are:

Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.

Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with.

Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.

Painting ravenguard and iron hands armies is probably a pretty similar experience, I imagine!

Ravenguard really are very strong for the sort of approach you seem to be taking. -1 to hit is better for things like those dakka dreads than the extra 6+ save. It reduces the damage you take by considerably more. Remember that you have to take the 6+ save against each wound taken. If you have a dread with 2 wounds left and a lascannon does it 3 wounds you need to take 3 6+ saves and pass two of them to survive - which is improbable. If that lascannon misses you though, all is well.

They are also surprisingly good for terminators, due to their infiltration stratagem. You get to already be there before turn one starts, so you can walk forwards and make an easy charge of 4" rather than 9".

As mentioned above, I'm not at all a fan of scouts for your troops. Ultimately you're spending 342 points on units that you can't expect to achieve much. And your double battalion plan means taking 4 HQs, which is loads.

I think you'd be better off with a different set of detachments. A single battalion gives you plenty of CPs really. On the other hand if you're taking 4 HQs and 6 troops I'd consider going for a brigade. It's achievable for marines thanks to units like attack bikes and scout bikers, though not exactly easy.

A dilemma for ravenguard is that they tend to want a lot of infantry and dreadnoughts, to maximise the use of their CTs. That tends to mean they have a lot of units and no transports, resulting in a high number of drops. That doesn't work too well if your plan is to use their stratagem to infiltrate people near them - because those guys will quite often just get murdered in turn 1.

Pretty sure you know who has first turn before you place your SftS units; going first; put them close, going second; in cover or out of LOS.

Bremon wrote:
Pretty sure you know who has first turn before you place your SftS units; going first; put them close, going second; in cover or out of LOS.

Yeah I think you're right - but of course you do still want to go first. Knowing that you're going second lets you put your units somewhere safer, but they still won't be doing what you want them to do.

Agreed, it certainly isn’t optimal.

Mandragola wrote:

Spoiler:

 tpogs wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).

Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.

You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.

Guilty as charged. I am indeed dismissing what 5 shotguns can do in that situation. They can kill 3 genestealers on average, if they are somehow able to get a shot off at close range. Doing this requires that they are within 6" of genestealers, which is problematic to say the least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.

This is fair comment. Cloaks definitely are overpriced. A scout with a cloak clearly isn't worth more than a tactical marine. You could perhaps argue that their scouting ability mean that they'd be worth the same amount as a tactical marine if you gave them cloaks, but certainly not more.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Perth wrote:
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.

Other choices are:

Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.

Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with.

Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.

Painting ravenguard and iron hands armies is probably a pretty similar experience, I imagine!

Ravenguard really are very strong for the sort of approach you seem to be taking. -1 to hit is better for things like those dakka dreads than the extra 6+ save. It reduces the damage you take by considerably more. Remember that you have to take the 6+ save against each wound taken. If you have a dread with 2 wounds left and a lascannon does it 3 wounds you need to take 3 6+ saves and pass two of them to survive - which is improbable. If that lascannon misses you though, all is well.

They are also surprisingly good for terminators, due to their infiltration stratagem. You get to already be there before turn one starts, so you can walk forwards and make an easy charge of 4" rather than 9".

As mentioned above, I'm not at all a fan of scouts for your troops. Ultimately you're spending 342 points on units that you can't expect to achieve much. And your double battalion plan means taking 4 HQs, which is loads.

I think you'd be better off with a different set of detachments. A single battalion gives you plenty of CPs really. On the other hand if you're taking 4 HQs and 6 troops I'd consider going for a brigade. It's achievable for marines thanks to units like attack bikes and scout bikers, though not exactly easy.

A dilemma for ravenguard is that they tend to want a lot of infantry and dreadnoughts, to maximise the use of their CTs. That tends to mean they have a lot of units and no transports, resulting in a high number of drops. That doesn't work too well if your plan is to use their stratagem to infiltrate people near them - because those guys will quite often just get murdered in turn 1.

I see what your talking about with the Ravenguard Chapter Tactic, but the tough decision is how much it will benefit the Terminators I would be dropping in rapid fire range to get as many shots as possible. At that point I get the feeling the -1 to hit isn't going to be as useful as the potential of a 6+ save against rapid fire Overcharged Plasma.

With most of the infantry being Scouts, Strike from the Shadows doesn't seem to be as useful. I can also see your point about the wasted points on 4 HQ choices running two Battalions, but I like that it opens up the option of turning the generic Captain into a Chapter Master to maximize the effectiveness of the Storm Bolters and Power Fists, and give me more chances to interrupt combats to swing with the Terminators as many times as possible before death. That, and I like having 2 Librarians to give me more chances to try and shut down Psychic powers that will eat through the 2+/5++ save the Terminators have, I was thinking about running Jump Pack Librarians to save a few points, but the better save seems well worth the minor points increase. And the Chaplain seems worth it if I want to send both Terminator Squads to separate areas of the battlefield, and the LD bonus.

It is a tough decision though, I will have to proxy it a few times and see how it runs. I am thinking of going Bolter Scouts on half the squads to give the ones running more towards the back a little more range.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Perth wrote:
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.

Other choices are:

Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.

Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [74 PL, 1108pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 157pts]: Force sword, Storm bolter

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 159pts]: Force stave, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [63 PL, 892pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 128pts]: Relic blade, Storm bolter

Chaplain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

++ Total: [137 PL, 2000pts] ++

Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.

I like where you're going, but I think I agree that two battalions might be a little much. After a little bit of playing around on battlescribe, this is what I came up with.


Battalion:
Captain w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Relic Blade
Librarian w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Force Staff

3x 5 Scouts

10 Terminators w/ 2x Assault Cannon
5 Terminators w/ Assault Cannon

Vanguard Detachment:
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter
4x Venerable Dreadnoughts w/ TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher

That comes out to 1870, which I just filled with three more terminators and some weapon upgrades, but you can play around with points and try to fit another Librarian in or mess with the Dreadnought weapons. I wholeheartedly recommend the Venerable upgrade though, not only is it more effective in my opinion, it's also more fluffy for this kind of list.

Mandragola wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Pretty sure you know who has first turn before you place your SftS units; going first; put them close, going second; in cover or out of LOS.

Yeah I think you're right - but of course you do still want to go first. Knowing that you're going second lets you put your units somewhere safer, but they still won't be doing what you want them to do.

I'm sorry, would you mind explaining how to use SFTS? How do you "know who will go first"? Do you avoid playing with the Chapter-Approved +1 to roll to see who goes first? Or do you rely on seeing whoever has less drops? Or does SFTS come into play after the seize initiative roll?

Thanks

Pregame rolls happen before the first battle round. Strike happens during the first battle round before the first turn. You therefore know the results of the pregame rolls before striking, but after electing to strike.

Cheers, that clarifies things for me finally

 Perth wrote:

Spoiler:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Perth wrote:
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.

Other choices are:

Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.

Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:

[spoiler]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [74 PL, 1108pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 157pts]: Force sword, Storm bolter

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 159pts]: Force stave, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [63 PL, 892pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 128pts]: Relic blade, Storm bolter

Chaplain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

++ Total: [137 PL, 2000pts] ++

Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.

[/spoiler]

I like where you're going, but I think I agree that two battalions might be a little much. After a little bit of playing around on battlescribe, this is what I came up with.


Battalion:
Captain w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Relic Blade
Librarian w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Force Staff

3x 5 Scouts

10 Terminators w/ 2x Assault Cannon
5 Terminators w/ Assault Cannon

Vanguard Detachment:
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter
4x Venerable Dreadnoughts w/ TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher

That comes out to 1870, which I just filled with three more terminators and some weapon upgrades, but you can play around with points and try to fit another Librarian in or mess with the Dreadnought weapons. I wholeheartedly recommend the Venerable upgrade though, not only is it more effective in my opinion, it's also more fluffy for this kind of list.

Adding a lieutenant to the above list would let you field it as a battalion and two vanguards - one comprising the terminators and a dread; the other with three dreads.

Vanguard dreadnoughts are pretty good. But what's really good if you're spamming shooty vehicles is to take predators. The killshot stratagem is seriously powerful. One venerable dread is probably better than one predator, but three predators are better than three venerable dreads.

Stand your captain with storm of fire and a lieutenant next to them, and watch them gun things down. Screen with intercessors, preferably.

So what I'd suggest is taking a battalion with the two HQs and scouts (though personally I hate the scouts, but whatever). Take a vanguard with the terminators and a dreadnought, and then take a spearhead with a lieutenant and three predators.

Any spare points should be spent upgrading scouts to intercessors, in my opinion.

Haven't read the whole thread (I don't really play SM); but after reading about discussions on Auspex Scan/Forewarned stratagems (shooting units after they deep strike), it got me thinking about Drop Pods.

Based on my reading of the Drop Pod Assault rule, and the stratagems; the Drop Pod is doing the deep strike, and the units inside are just disembarking [which means they can't be shot at]. The fact it happens at the same time is just a bonus.

You're still paying ~100 points for a Storm Bolter/Deathwind Launcher; but immunity to deep striking may become relevant depending on how prevalent Eldar/Dark Reapers become in general. Also, the Drop Pod takes up space on the board, which means you have to charge it to really move past it's doors (if you use them) - this could randomly delay certain enemies/shield you from charges depending on how you place it.

Perhaps taking a single Drop Pod+squad dedicated to shooting up squishy backline units could give you some flexibility in a scene where you can't/don't want to change up your army list between games.

I posted on YMDC, we'll see what they think as well. (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744062.page)

fe40k wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread (I don't really play SM); but after reading about discussions on Auspex Scan/Forewarned stratagems (shooting units after they deep strike), it got me thinking about Drop Pods.

Based on my reading of the Drop Pod Assault rule, and the stratagems; the Drop Pod is doing the deep strike, and the units inside are just disembarking [which means they can't be shot at]. The fact it happens at the same time is just a bonus.

You're still paying ~100 points for a Storm Bolter/Deathwind Launcher; but immunity to deep striking may become relevant depending on how prevalent Eldar/Dark Reapers become in general. Also, the Drop Pod takes up space on the board, which means you have to charge it to really move past it's doors (if you use them) - this could randomly delay certain enemies/shield you from charges depending on how you place it.

Perhaps taking a single Drop Pod+squad dedicated to shooting up squishy backline units could give you some flexibility in a scene where you can't/don't want to change up your army list between games.

I posted on YMDC, we'll see what they think as well. (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744062.page)

The wording is actually arrives from reserves (it's just easier to say deep strike). They can shoot your unit inside.

For what it's worth, in 7th Interceptor was able to target the unit that disembarked. I'd expect it to still be the same in 8th as the wording is similar.

An interesting point on 3 Predators vs 3 Venerable Dreads. The Predators do put out more firepower, even without the stratagem, but I'm not so sure they're an auto-take without CTs. The Raven Guard trait in particular is huge for shooty dreads, and the Salamander or Ultramarine CT is worth considering as well. Not to mention costing 100 points more.

The big nail in the coffin for Predators is that everyone knows about Kill Shot, and killing a Predator is not difficult. So you can plan on getting one turn if you go first from Kill Shot, then you're back to normal predators.

I'm not saying one is strictly better, but I think it's far from an auto choice.