Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's the question though: Should marines have to ally in Custodes just to get a decent CC unit?

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I don't think the 5++ brings a lot to the Marines, unless it is something AP-3 ignore cover. Otherwise, putting your Devastators in backline ruins already give them a 2+ save (4+ Sv VS AP-2 or 5+ VS AP-3, which are majority of "anti Marine" weaponary have), that is going to make that 5++ Vexilla a waste of points.

This. Marines in cover already get a 5+ save against lascannons, and better against everything else. A 5++ bubble does very, very little for us. It would be far better to spend the points on more guys with guns, to shoot the enemy dead first.

That's not to say that Custodians in general are bad. They just have no place standing at the back. Sit them on jetbikes and have them poke at stuff with lances.

Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

 Primark G wrote:
You don't even know do you?

What sort of demented reply is that? Of course he doesn't know, that's why he asked. I know you and Martel don't see eye to eye but come on.

A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

I've never used the Laser Destroyer but it seems okay at least. I've never actually run the math on it though so we ought to prompt someone to do that. I'm at work so I can't!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You don't even know do you?

What sort of demented reply is that? Of course he doesn't know, that's why he asked. I know you and Martel don't see eye to eye but come on.

This is the guy that thinks Tactical Marines are good. You expect any good advice coming out of someone with that thought process?

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

So my son is working on his Iron Hands army after painting up Battle for Vedros and Dark Imperium. Here’s what he has painted so far:

Captain in Gravis
Captain with bolter and relic blade
2 Primaris LTs
Primaris Apothecary
Primaris Ancient
Repulsed
2 Intercessor Squads
1 5-man Tactical Squad
Dreadnought with Multimelta
Razorback with TLHB or TLLC
Boltstorm Aggressors
Hellblasters

Unpainted:
Bolter Inceptors

The current plan is to put the Gravis Captain, Aggressors, LT, and Apothecary in the Repulsor and drive it into the enemy. The other captain, LT, and ancient stay in the back with the Hellblasters and other heavy weapons. The Intecessors and Tac Squad bubble-wrap as best they can.

Where should he go next? We think he needs more anti-tank firing, so either devestators or centurion devestators. I don’t play Space Marines, so my experience is pretty limited on how to expand up to 2000 points.

Iron Hand venerable dreads are tough nuts to crack (2x 6+++s if my understanding is correct). 2+ bs with lascannon+auto cannon (index version) is good for around 170 points or you could run a couple dev squads (2 naked, sarge w/ storm bolter, 2 lascannons or a las and a ML to use ML strat) as anti-tank.

You need something to take the focus off of your repulsor or something to take advantage of your enemy focusing on that one (unless your boy plays on boards with a spot to hide it out of LOS)

The multimelta on the dread probably isn't the best bet. Does he have a las-cannon arm for it? I guess you could run it up the board with the repulsor (would probably work better if there were 2 of them). With a LC it could kick it back with the hellblasters and use the re-roll strat (wisdom of the ancient, re-roll 1s w/in 6" for 1 cp) allowing that captain to be replaced and provide some counter charge ability if anything gets too close (or you could replace the CCW on it with ML or cannon and go full dakka)

I'm a fan of the dakka ceptors. They may not be the most efficient unit but they lend themselves to fun gameplay.

Please don't buy centurions, please. Unless someone is giving them to you or your boy loves the sculps they are real life expensive and on the table terrible (at least IMHO).

Martel732 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

this isn't the blood angel thread. Blood angels get gak normal space marines don't. What custodes do or do not add to blood angels isn't helpful for not playing blood angels. And considering the best blood angel lists tend to rely on blood angel specific units, it's not a helpful thought process to have with space marines.

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

Mandragola wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

You also need scouts and you really want screens (eg, imp guard).

stratigo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

this isn't the blood angel thread. Blood angels get gak normal space marines don't. What custodes do or do not add to blood angels isn't helpful for not playing blood angels. And considering the best blood angel lists tend to rely on blood angel specific units, it's not a helpful thought process to have with space marines.

I think a lot of the same issues can be extended to regular marines.

If you use the 5++ vexilla remember units must be wholly within the bubble and there is a strat you can burn for 1 CP that adds 6" to its radius.

Mandragola wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

Sorry, I misspoke: I meant keeping everything necessary within the 6" range of the ancient (since it's models not units), the buff range of the captain and lieutenant, and potentially the apothecary. It seems to me that it could be tricky getting enough units in cover to still take advantage of the ancient and other characters, but I definitely see your point regarding just buying more guns rather than trying to protect the ones you have better. The lists I'm thinking about have a couple contemptors in them as well to help deal with assaulting units, but you're right that the vexilla doesn't do much to save the gunline from an assault. The vexilla probably has some uses in a list like this, but it's not the be-all end-all.

Marines are more than codex: devastators in cover.....lol.

Gman, aggressors and assault plasma hellblasters, while potent, sorely lack the inv for the marines. Played multiple games tonight where i thought, god damn that vexillia would be handy....

I guess they aren't static devastators in cover though so what would I know..

Continuing to decry a very powerful option because it doesn't buff devastators is embarassing and laughable. You are allowed to play marines without them... Shock horror.

Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

 Porphyrius wrote:
Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

I mean I'm figuring Aggressors would be an excellent candidate, but allying in Custodes is something I don't really want to do. Heaven forbid Marines function mildly on their own, right?

I'm not trying to say that it's a must-take or something, just an idea I had. I totally get not wanting to ally in other factions, in fact I don't really plan to use allies very often myself. Still, I like the look of the minis (and GK for that matter) so I'm trying to find combos that can work.

the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

So, again, I'm going to ask, what do these guys give marines/BA/DA/SW or power armor armies in general that they don't already have for cheaper?

Martel732 wrote:
So, again, I'm going to ask, what do these guys give marines/BA/DA/SW or power armor armies in general that they don't already have for cheaper?

Honestly? The bikes are amazing at killing anything t6 or lower, even hordes. There's a reason hurricane bolters are a great weapon.

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Ice_can wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Good point on the range. The jump from 36 to 48 is pretty huge I've noticed.

Now I just need to find a decent elites unit to unlock the Sicaran. Really wish Deathwatch wasn't arbitrarily cut off from so many codex units. Thinking maybe just a Primaris Apothecary and/or some Vanguard vets. The Vindicator at least doesn't require me to purchase from the even more limited HS options under DW, though even if it did, QHB Rapiers aren't the worst tax unit.

The other FW toy I was considering to patch up DW's awful AT options was a Xiphon, but at 240 points, they seem a little too fragile.

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Good point on the range. The jump from 36 to 48 is pretty huge I've noticed.

Now I just need to find a decent elites unit to unlock the Sicaran. Really wish Deathwatch wasn't arbitrarily cut off from so many codex units. Thinking maybe just a Primaris Apothecary and/or some Vanguard vets. The Vindicator at least doesn't require me to purchase from the even more limited HS options under DW, though even if it did, QHB Rapiers aren't the worst tax unit.

The other FW toy I was considering to patch up DW's awful AT options was a Xiphon, but at 240 points, they seem a little too fragile.

What IS the actual Mathhammer though on those units? If we assume I run a Chapter Master next to them, how are they running in terms of inflicting wounds on the types of vehicles we can expect?

I'd actually like to do this later if nobody else will. My laptop with Battlescribe is missing its charger though!

stratigo wrote:
the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

Wrong the 5++ is huge compared to no save whatsoever.

 Primark G wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

Wrong the 5++ is huge compared to no save whatsoever.

But for how many points and how often?

 Porphyrius wrote:
Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

Ive had incredible success (8w/1l in a hardcore competitive group) running 2x Dakka repulsors, tiggy, 8-10 aggressors (banner if 8), gman and an intercessor seargant as my patrol requirement at 1500 (most local tournies run this points level currently).

But for the rest of the year its going back to 2k, so im looking at a DS termi vexilia for when the aggressors get out. T5 2w isn't very survivable, especially when they type of guns that are pointed at them ignore their armour save or pull it to a 6+ and do multiple damage a shot anyway.

The list doesnt score too well at 1500 (unless you know how to place objectives properly) so I also am running lots of objective capping units at 2k.... the list is actually very mobile eventually, with the mobility of the additional units I can have scoring options progressively throughout the game, have good defence (main weaknesses are smite and gunlines, an evesor helps tiggy against psychic and tiggys -1 to hit on one tank, t9 on the other tank and the 5++ to the aggressors helps against the gunlines and then the tanks, aggressors and gman do the heavy lifting.