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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?

No? I think Deathwatch with allies could end up being stronger than most Space Marine builds, but I wouldn't say that makes me "peeved." I'm not getting upset just because someone else got nicer toys.

It is quite surreal though how much better the DW Intercessors are for mere one point.

From competitive perspective I see no reason to ever use Primaris models as anything other than Death Watch.

 Crimson wrote:
It is quite surreal though how much better the DW Intercessors are for mere one point.

From competitive perspective I see no reason to ever use Primaris models as anything other than Death Watch.

Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols. They functionally have a single attack at S4 AP-2 in melee or a poison round.

So basically at original price, when they were just mediocre, they became super functional on offense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols.

I too assumed that this would be the case, except all the reviews and say they're 19 points, so either those people made a mistake or the pistol is free.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols.

I too assumed that this would be the case, except all the reviews and say they're 19 points, so either those people made a mistake or the pistol is free.

Well if Bolt Pistols are free then my life is complete and I'll be doing Deathwatch from here on out.

Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.

Well, yeah. It is nice that Deathwatch has some solid options, but at the same time it is a shame that they basically make obsolete huge chunks of the vanilla codex...

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.

Well, yeah. It is nice that Deathwatch has some solid options, but at the same time it is a shame that they basically make obsolete huge chunks of the vanilla codex...

It isn't like those things were super viable in the first place. It just means this codex was written a lot better outside some clear issues (HQ units not getting Bikes because reasons, for example). ANYWAY...

This'll likely be my Space Marine half to whatever the Deathwatch will bring forth. I'm thinking a battalion of strictly artillery and range support while everyone else closes in. MAYBE something like this for me:

x1 Huron
x1 Lt w/ Power Fist and Primarch's Wrath

x3 5 Shotgun Scouts

x2 Quad Launcher Rapiers
x1 Thunderfire Cannon

I can always add a Damocles for another distraction and additional mortal wounds, or my ever beloved Sentry Turrets, but that's only an initial investment of 746 points. A Damocles will make that 868, and the Sentry Guns is 979. So I would get:
1. Denial to my deployment zone via Scouts and Sentry Guns
2. Access to Quake Shells as an emergency, as otherwise another Rapier would service better
3. A total of 2 Orbital Bombardments + Huron's ability to nuke a unit
4. A Rhino to throw at the enemy to make things not shoot as it has no other purpose
5. Huron giving a command point because he'd be the Warlord, though of course a Deathwatch dude can give me the possibility to recycle so...

That's a lot of anti-infantry and the several spammed mortal wounds can help down bigger targets. Then afterwards Deathwatch do their surgical strike.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?

Yes and no. The point premium for their special wargear seems well worth it. However, it's on top of units most people here consider slightly overpriced, so the end result still doesn't seem wildly good and it cuts into their numbers even further. They also give up chapter tactics for them. That stuff sounds cool, but not so hands down better than I'm pissed over it. I was more annoyed with BA than with Deathwatch so far. That was like, here, take the vanilla unit list at the same costs and add these extra super killy CC options and good named chars on top.

However, Deathwatch bikes sounded amazing if I heard it right. Vets with their 2A stats, the ability to take cc weapons (like free chainswords), the ability to fall back and charge, and special issue ammo for 27pts each instead of the vanilla bikers at 25 with 1A? That is a crazy good bonus for +2pts and implies vanilla bikers are horribly overcosted/underpowered. I was never super keen on SM biker models, but if I was, that sounds incredible.

I was also sad for the land raiders. Not sad that DW get land raiders, but sad that if GW just printed up another army book with them at the same costs, that means they aren't being lowered anytime soon.

I love how BA who join Deathwatch magically lose red thirst. Lame.

Martel732 wrote:
I love how BA who join Deathwatch magically lose red thirst. Lame.

Everyone loses something. Iron Hands suddenly lose their bionic abilities.

That said they did have a missed opportunity with the Psyker chart. A power each from Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and the Vanilla codex and then two new powers would be been kinda cool.

Deathwatch do have chapter tactics - or rather mission tactics. They reroll 1s to wound vs a chosen troop type. SIA is gravy on top.

95 points for 5 intercessors with bolt rifles and SIA feels pretty great. I wonder what would happen if you took a horde of them. You could afford 50 or 60, a couple of HQs, and have plenty left for some anti tank.

So much for a super-elite army. It wouldn’t shock me to see a deathwatch army that outnumbered an IG opponent.

Guess i know which army my pile of Primaris from the starter will be. Will be easy, paint a pad and arm silver the other a random colour with a symbol, the rest is black!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?

Every new codex that comes out leaves me more and more salty.

Mixed intersessor squads with aggressors. Please. Deepstriking dreads (come on, deepstriking leviathan dreads is ssssoooo good).

DA, BA and DW are all now firmly better than vanilla marines. Once the SW codex drops I doubt there will be any reason to run anything out of the dex (especially since they keep raising the cost of Gman who was really what made any of the competitive builds work). There maybe a spot for some RG scouts but vanilla marines are heading to the bottom of the competitive list (like I predicted way back when the eldar codex dropped...)

Good thing I don't have to repaint much of my existing army to play them as deathwatch (the only thing black templars have going for them

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Someone else got to it before I could.

Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.

Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.

Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Someone else got to it before I could.

Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.

Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.

Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.

Flakk will already hit a Fly Keyword on a 2+. You'll need it for a ground target to get the regular hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Someone else got to it before I could.

Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.

Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.

Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.

Flakk will already hit a Fly Keyword on a 2+. You'll need it for a ground target to get the regular hit.

+2, not 2+.

Ah that's how you meant it. Gotcha.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ah that's how you meant it. Gotcha.

Well yeah, that's how I wrote it.

The +2 or more can be pretty critical if you have to shoot at Alitoc multiple negative to hit modifier flyers.

But right now I would say marines are not worth it in a competitive meta.

Why do you say SM can’t cut the mustard? I’d like to know your reasons.

 Primark G wrote:
Why do you say SM can’t cut the mustard? I’d like to know your reasons.

Take a look at Deathwatch, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels. They can build a better army, simple as that. Raven Guard is the last hope for the Vanilla Codex now as Rowboat and Razorbacks only go so far now.

Blood angels are probably worse than RG at this point. But all power armor that's not DG is pretty fethed right now.

Take one look at the London GT lists with a view to winning and non of the pure marine lists are likely to make top table.

Also I actually play with my vanilla codex marine lists weekly and I can tell they are ok if I out list someone in a casual game, but against a well built and piloted list, not even 50% Forgeworld is enough to keep them viable.

I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.

Marines are actually pretty poor in close combat on a per point basis. I also find librarians to be too expensive for what they bring to the table.

 Primark G wrote:
I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.

Being jack of all trades has for a long time been marines' exact issue for ages - we're okay at everything but a master of zilch. We can be outmaneuvered, outpsykered, outshot, and/or outmeleed by the majority of other armies. The only phase we're really good at is morale... And even then, things like fearless cultists can outdo us there too.

That being said, we do have some good builds up our sleeve (mostly but not solely revolving around SftS). Although we might not be seeing much of the very top tables, marines are still more than capable of getting you most of the way there imo, and the codex probably isn't the thing holding most players back

Raven Guard is red hot garbage it has not won any major event nor shall it.

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.

Being jack of all trades has for a long time been marines' exact issue for ages - we're okay at everything but a master of zilch. We can be outmaneuvered, outpsykered, outshot, and/or outmeleed by the majority of other armies. The only phase we're really good at is morale... And even then, things like fearless cultists can outdo us there too. We have some good tricks up our sleeve (mostly revolving around SftS), but otherwise don't have much going for us

I think the fundamental issue in 40K is while army-wide flexibility is great, unit flexibility only counts for so much and you pay point premium for it. Most marines never want to be in CC, but you're paying for that S4, hit on 3+. Other armies mostly only pay for the stats they want. You buy your desired BS 3+ or your WS 3+ for cheaper than the marine. Second, the idea that Marines need to be flexible and CC those armies that can outshoot them (or shoot those that can out CC) tends to fall apart when their backup stats simply aren't good enough. S4 on a 3+ isn't that hot when you only roll 1 die per model. You paid that point premium, but aren't better off than the opponent with S3 4+ and 2x the models to strike with.

Many editions they design a lot of marine wargear around wanting to be around 12" range (rapid fire, flamers, melta, backed up by assault cannons or grav), but that's really close if you don't want to be in CC. I could be totally wrong here, but I always felt like marines were theoretically designed to be a very close in shooty-assault hybrid army, like you shoot at close range as you close, then charge in. Which makes sense then that marines could never outshoot AM or Tau pure gunlines, you're supposed to be good in CC too. Problem being, in practice, most of the army is bad in CC. This is where I always thought BA had some advantage. You're more likely to use your entire model's statline, which you already paid for.

I've been wondering, what if all basic marines had +1A? I dunno if it'd fix their effectiveness, since it's still the stat least used by most marine lists (or turn everyone into BA style?), but bolter marines getting 2 swings makes them slightly better and assault marines getting 3 with their chainswords sounds a lot more appealing. Vets and primaris could have 3 base, then remove the double chainsword option. Some chars and the handful of good assault units would probably need to stay unchanged, but you get the rough idea.

Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.

 Primark G wrote:
Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.

Totally agree. I don't think we've seen the end of Guilliman gunlines, and allies almost alway make imperium armies better. I definitely think RG are viable too though, I'm not sure why you don't