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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.

Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.

I think it all depends. People are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.

So its a bolt rifle with +6 inch range and the heavy penalty while costing 3 more points. Yeah I am not seeing the reason for taking it.

Edit: I mean it does always get two shots which ill admit is good, but at 15-18 so does the bolt rifle while being on a twice as durable model not limited to not moving.

Would you rather shoot twice at 18" or 42"?

Edit: Your edit came while I was posting lol. Yeah it's a great gun for people parked in the back, ironically being a better Sniper Rifle than actual Sniper Rifles, except it can't target characters (excluding Tyranids).

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.

Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.

I think it all depends. People are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.

So its a bolt rifle with +6 inch range and the heavy penalty while costing 3 more points. Yeah I am not seeing the reason for taking it.

Edit: I mean it does always get two shots which ill admit is good, but at 15-18 so does the bolt rifle while being on a twice as durable model not limited to not moving.

Would you rather shoot twice at 18" or 42"?

Edit: Your edit came while I was posting lol. Yeah it's a great gun for people parked in the back, ironically being a better Sniper Rifle than actual Sniper Rifles, except it can't target characters (excluding Tyranids).

Yup I edited my post to reply to your edit on the plasmas as well. Hilarious xD

I'd rather have a cheaper, durable and more mobile unit. The sniper kill team does not do enough raw damage to be worth its points IMO, but I see where you are coming from. It being heavy 2 is a big deal that edges out the intercessors heavy 1 version.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

 Primark G wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.

And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.

 Primark G wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

That's not even remotely true at 30"

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.

And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.

Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).

Can we please be mindful of the subject of this thread.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

This isn't the deathwatch veterans vrs primaris thread.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).

Alright wow I confused Ravagers with Raveners.

Yeah Ravagers are nasty. I only played DE once and I hated it. Though I don't think it's fair to compare 1 unit to another in a vacuum and say "this unit will never work because this unit in this codex just destroys them!" Dark Eldar destroy everything, that's kind of their shtick right now.

And yeah I agree with Ice_can. Maybe we can continue the conversation here?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/728413.page

I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.

 Primark G wrote:
I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.

They can still lower the price of certain units and certain weapons without buffing DW too much, even if they do wind up being good. Tacs/ASM/Devastators aren't in DW. Land Speeders aren't in DW. Predators aren't in DW. There's loads of things that can still be changed in CA that won't change a thing for DW, so I'm not ready to give up hope.

I think it’s okay to want it but if you hope too much you could be setting yourself up for disappointment.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.

They can still lower the price of certain units and certain weapons without buffing DW too much, even if they do wind up being good. Tacs/ASM/Devastators aren't in DW. Land Speeders aren't in DW. Predators aren't in DW. There's loads of things that can still be changed in CA that won't change a thing for DW, so I'm not ready to give up hope.

Not that I think GW would do this so soon after just releasing a new printed book, but let's say hypothetically DW are fine and vanilla is still underpowered and they did want to change primaris costs. They could reduce the cost of the vanilla units and then up the cost of SIA capable guns further. Ex: A 16pt Intercessor buying a 3pt gun instead of a 18pt buying a 1pt gun.

If your having trouble with deldar Pop in some some basic predators. with CA chaing the pred AC down to 40 points they cost 130 per tank and perform excellently vs light vehicles with invuln saves and elite units with invuln saves. I have found them to be effective in literally every game I've played with them, Killshot or not.

Hey fellas, any tips to taking on Mechdar, Death Guard, or Mech Dark Eldar? I'm thinking Twin Abacks, and Hellblasters as a core. I'd agree with the Predator Autocannon vs DE vehicles, but that -1 to hit hurts.

The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.

If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP

I have used Storm of Fire and it’s a good Warlord Trait - not the best but can be a boost if you’re firing a lot of ranged shots. I had a recent 500 point versus Necrons which was basically troops versus troops and it really helped.

Vilehydra wrote:
The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.

If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP

How is it making 5+ to hit ap-2? I know what the warlord trait does but how are you getting +1 to wound?

Azuza001 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.

If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP

How is it making 5+ to hit ap-2? I know what the warlord trait does but how are you getting +1 to wound?

Was referring to the killshot strategem. It provides +1 to wound and +1 Damage.

I keep forgetting about that +1 damage...thats actually not a bad deal...4 damage autocannons is pretty nuts

bort wrote:

Not that I think GW would do this so soon after just releasing a new printed book, but let's say hypothetically DW are fine and vanilla is still underpowered and they did want to change primaris costs. They could reduce the cost of the vanilla units and then up the cost of SIA capable guns further. Ex: A 16pt Intercessor buying a 3pt gun instead of a 18pt buying a 1pt gun.

Yeah, I hope they do something like that. It is totally absurd how much better the DW Primaris are. There should be some reason to use non-DW Primaris.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I keep forgetting about that +1 damage...thats actually not a bad deal...4 damage autocannons is pretty nuts

2 damage heavy bolters as well. They're like disintegrator cannons but worse.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I keep forgetting about that +1 damage...thats actually not a bad deal...4 damage autocannons is pretty nuts

2 damage heavy bolters as well. They're like disintegrator cannons but worse.

way to sell that weapon

stratigo wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I keep forgetting about that +1 damage...thats actually not a bad deal...4 damage autocannons is pretty nuts

2 damage heavy bolters as well. They're like disintegrator cannons but worse.

way to sell that weapon

10/10 Salesman

Not sure if this has been talked about, but has FW confirmed how to use the Badab characters? I was looking at Lias again because seems pretty awesome for what I am shooting for but... Raptors Chapter Tactics aren't a thing.

I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.

Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.

Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.

Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.

Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.

This is a point I've been trying to make for some time.

The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.

With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.

How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?

With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.

While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.

And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.

Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).

I don't think the math holds up regarding a single Ravager killing a 10 man Primaris unit like Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters, especially one in cover. Are there some buffs being used in this scenario? Hell, even 3 of them will really only manage 10.6 damage if they all try and focus down one unit. That's only 5 dead models. Assuming Disintegrator cannons. I haven't encountered any Dark Eldar so I'm probably missing something...

@Lemondish,

I don't think the Drukhari need to kill the primaris that quickly, as the plasma incinerator is quite inefficient against them. And they dictate range of engagement. They have time.