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bort wrote:
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

Just making it only require 2 would actually allow you to be able to actually use it outside of turn 1 first player.

But quite frankly Imho dreadnaught or FW does everything a predator does better and with more survivability.

Primaris marines are deadweight with the amount of D2 D3 and Dd3 weapons.

At this point though a tournament level list for imperium isn't even trying if you don't have a IG brigade and the 3 shield captain bikers. Leaving you with little to actually use marines for bar the obvious scouts.

Martel732 wrote:
@Lemondish,

I don't think the Drukhari need to kill the primaris that quickly, as the plasma incinerator is quite inefficient against them. And they dictate range of engagement. They have time.

Well of course - the ravagers and the fortis kill team aren't the only two units on the board, though.

They aren't, but I think Durkhari scale better than marines anyway. Their jets in particular are much more cost effective than marine fliers.

BA finally get all the marine fliers in time for them to all be crap.

I think deathwatch primaris could make a decent battalion. That’s not the same as saying they’d make a great army. Clearly the codex lacks a lot of cool stuff.

Luckily, they don’t have to be a whole army on their own. It’s possible to source stuff from all the other books if you want, including the other marine ones.

So maybe they should add in some dark angel hellblasters or black knights with Sammael and a talonmaster. Maybe some custodes captains and some manticores. There are tons of good options available to fill in around what certainly looks like a decent troops choice.

bort wrote:
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.

There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.

 SputnikDX wrote:

bort wrote:
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.

There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.

The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.

I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.

Vilehydra wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

bort wrote:
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.

There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.

The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.

I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.

All of the formation-ish stratagems I feel like are cool but really not optimal. It's an interesting attempt to make unoptimized things have a purpose, but some of them just require so much investment they almost reach redundancy. Three librarians just to spend 1 CP for +1 power at a +2 attempt? Has anyone honestly even tried using this?

 SputnikDX wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

bort wrote:
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AM cp batteries even more.

I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.

The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.

There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.

The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.

I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.

All of the formation-ish stratagems I feel like are cool but really not optimal. It's an interesting attempt to make unoptimized things have a purpose, but some of them just require so much investment they almost reach redundancy. Three librarians just to spend 1 CP for +1 power at a +2 attempt? Has anyone honestly even tried using this?

The Librarius Discipline psychic powers are ......... maybe ok but not many of them looks great. But may not be great. So I think the use of this stratagem have doubt in if it is worth to bring 3 Librarians, whuch is overcosted in 8th edition.

Veil of time buffs units in combat, but marine units are quite bad in it compare to other factions (except maybe IG and Tau). Might of Hero is good on single beatstick, it is the only power I like because I like Dreadnought

Psychic Scourge and Fury of Ancient is mortal wounds but very situational. No better than smite although now with the limitation of smite these power may be raised in usefulness compare to before.

Psychic Fortress is ok to protect key unit. It is the only power that can increase the survivabilty. It is a good one if fighting Tzeentch, Nidz, and maybe Eldar. However with the nerf to Smite ots value decreased. Also not a aura is ....... lackluster.

The Null Zone is "the best" one, but between the warp charge and its 6" range aura, its use is heavily limited. Enemy can easily mitigate its effect. The only successful experience among my almong my so many games using marine was in one game when enemy have a Soul Grinders and 2 Daemon Princes charged into my gunline, I advanced Tiggy towards them, pop this power, and counter charge Guilliman and a Contemptor into them to chop them into pieces. But that is the only success among my almost several dozen games.

Yeah, Librarian discipline is a bit limited, I agree. Null Zone and Might of Heroes are both great though. Might of heroes is so flexible! I love throwing it on a leviathan or repulsor for a T9 model, or to buff a melee monster.

Null zone is great for one major reason: it encourages these crazy cinematic moments when the librarian breaks ranks and charges the enemy, to get it in 6", for some classic death-or-glory shenanigans.

I've never been to a big tournament like an ITC, but at a local RTT death guard have been running rampant. Most of our events are run at the 1.5k level, does the community think aggressors are too expensive at this point level?

Also are they only good as Raven Guard due to their stratagem or would you consider running them as another chapter. (I'm one of those guys that has a custom paint job so I can choose my chapter before the event)

 Sonminiser wrote:
I've never been to a big tournament like an ITC, but at a local RTT death guard have been running rampant. Most of our events are run at the 1.5k level, does the community think aggressors are too expensive at this point level?

Also are they only good as Raven Guard due to their stratagem or would you consider running them as another chapter. (I'm one of those guys that has a custom paint job so I can choose my chapter before the event)

I think you'd have to have a good reason to run them as anything else, but that goes for all units, really, as RG have the most obviously useful chapter tactic. Even if you don't get first turn for the strat, you can hide them in cover somewhere and the -1 to hit will help them survive long enough to do things.

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.

Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.

Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.

This is a point I've been trying to make for some time.

Yes, I remember this.

Is the meta really changing where you play ? I barely see any difference month after month in my gaming environnement. I mean, usually, people tend to stick to their army lists for their purchases, and they have like a 1 year delay between the writting of the list and the final purchase.

Yeah,there's a LOT more autocannon type weapons. I've dumped lascannons out of my lists for the most part. Not enough good targets anymore.

Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.

Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.

Vulkan He'Stan, traveling (on foot) with:
Herath Shen
5-6 Aggressors with Flamestorm Gauntlets (by the way, does Vulkan's "firing flame weapons" mean only in the shooting phase, or does it work for 'firing' the melee stats of a Flamestorm Gauntlet as well?)
Should this unit have something like an Ancient as well? A Librarian, perhaps?

3 squads of Tactical Marines, with Assault Cannon Razorbacks
5-man squads seems to be the way to go from what I've seen, rather than Combat Squadding them to leave the Heavy Weapons back on a hill or something?
Thinking Combi-Melta on the sarge, and either a Multi-Melta or Meltagun in the squad; is the Salamanders tactic enough to account for the moving and firing penalty here?
Do these units benefit enough from a Lieutenant or something similar (Librarian for extra 'shooting'?), or at 5-man is it just not worth investing more?

2-3 Ironclad Dreadnoughts (or 2 and Bray'arth Ashmantle) in Lucius Pattern Drop Pods
Dropping down in the back lines second turn to wreak havoc while the rest of the army advances
If they're trying to be in combat most of the time, keep the pair of CC weapons, or is the Wrecker reroll not worth it?
Was thinking dual Flamers, but it's not like they can use them when they come out of the pods
Assault Launchers since they're going to barreling into things
I haven't looked enough at the number of wounds other things have; Seismic Hammer's extra damage worth the hit penalty, or should you always switch it out for the chainfist? Worth keeping with the Salamanders tactic?
Do Hunter-Killer Missiles tend to be worth the points?

Heavy support firepower; either:
1-2 squads of Lascannon Devastators with a banner-toting Ancient (Chapter? Company? They seem very similar, am I missing something?)
-or-
1-2 Lascannon Predators
Unsure which of these is preferable. The Devastators are a bit cheaper and benefit from Chapter Tactics. The Predators would draw some anti-tank fire from the Razorbacks and, as the turns progress, Dreadnoughts, and are more durable. Again, Hunter-Killers or no? And generally no extra ablative bodies for Devs, right?

Does it need something else? A couple of light aircraft? An anti-air tank? More anti-personnel in the form of a trio of extra-flamey Land Speeders? More troops for holding objectives?


I realize the list isn't very specific, like I said it's just a skeleton of one, and I'm sure some of it depends on the local meta, which I'm not sure what that is yet, but some general advice would be great.

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.

Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.

I exclusively play Salamanders,

Vulkan really isn't worth it anymore unfortunately, he is slow and his reroll all melta/flamer is a 6" bubble. There is just no effective way to deliver him and his shortrange payload to a target. Also, you may reroll flame/melta hits and wounds any time you fire them.
Herath Shen is not a bad HQ pick, as he's 2 points cheaper than a captain and acts as an improved and upgunned apothecary, but his effectiveness only really comes into play if you have tanky multi-wound models. Also his plasma pistol won't kill himself if it overcharges, only does a MW.

Flamestorm Aggressors, I've never played them but I haven't heard anything really good about them. The biggest problem is the short range and they can't fire from deepstrike, meaning that if you keep them in reserve they won't be able to shoot until turn 3, and that is if they survive. I have heard that the dakkaggressors are decent. Normal aggressors don't benefit much from salamander CTs anyways.

Tac squads keep them cheap. I generally just drop a 5 man with a lascannon in cover. Every time I fire the unit the lascannon is already fired first to leverage the re-roll to hit and wound. The other bodies act as decent chaff (2+ save in cover) and provide limited anti-chaff. Meltaguns just aren't worth it. Razorbacks just aren't tough enough to guarantee enough get into range.

Ironclads are not bad. I generally run them as Ravenguard for the -1 to hit which makes them pretty tough to take out. Because I run RG, I generally keep both CC arms for wrecker (Chainfist is the best, 4 damage will shred things. Had one Ironclad rip down a knight that had exactly 16 wounds left in CC, I did use one re-roll however). If your running Salamanders, having a hurricane might be useful to help with chaff or you could go both CCW and your still able to mitigate a miss in the fight phase.

Bray'arth is really fun, but honestly not that great. If your bringing him in a dreadnought drop pod he'll run you 480 points. He is super tough, and if your fighting an immobile gunline he will absolutely tear it apart, but there are a lot of gunlines that are quite mobile like tau or deldar. If you are going to run him, add in a jetpack librarian with veil of time and might of heroes. If you get both off, he'll have 5 attacks at Str 18 and be toughness 10 (which is critical against lascannons) and be re-rolling advances and charges. You may have more success if you do back him up with two ironclads because that's a lot of high toughness models right in the enemy players face. Remember that Bray'arth is also a character that has fewer than 10 wounds. If your using a drop pod to bring him in it can also act as a bunker with some smart positioning.

If your dreadnoughts hit the deck right in front of them, pop smoke. That -1 to hit will seriously increase the survivability against shooting heavy armies.

For heavy support I generally run 3 Dakka preds with a LT and captain for re-roll support. I'm a big proponent of the predator AC over the LasTurret because of the proliferation of multi-wound models with invuln saves. I use HB sponsons, but have been unimpressed with them so far and may either drop them or switch back to lascannons.

There is something to be said for running a couple dev squads with a single HB and ML and a cherub. You pop the hellfire strategem AND the cherub, as per the FAQ the hellfire strategem affects both shots. If a target has fly, you may then pop the flakk missile strategem. This will get you a 2d3 MWs hitting on 2+ (because of signum) and if a target has fly it can deal an additional d3 MWs on a 2+.

On a sidenote, gunboat dreadnoughts are great with the salamander CT.

This is only my experience with 8th Ed Salamanders. Unfortunately marine meltas and flamers are just not that great because we lack any system to effectively deliver them which makes me a sad Salamander. I encourage your friend to experiment though, he may find things that I've missed.

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.

Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.

Jumping off the post above me as well I agree with him for the most part. Vulkan is really expensive just to walk around with aggressors, though if you can get them into a good place and pop the stratagem you will cook anything alive at full strength. I usually run Vulkan and Shen alongside hellblasters a flag and some aggressors while my dreads and transports head up the board and tacs do their thing inside or out.

Special note of the Hellblaster Relic Flag Combo. I NEVER regret bringing it

Im in favor of 3x 10 man tacticals and combat squading . The combat squad stratagem is nice if you can get first turn and need one less drop to get the +1. Lascannon/Missle Launcher and a Plasmagun and go from there. Ashmantles really cool for stupid games but Id leave em at home and take a leviathan or contemptor heck both! I tend to go dread heavy just cause I like em so much but they always do well, just expect one to fall on the way up.

Its sad that if you play fluffy you've got some work cut out for ya. I always have fun despite that!

I just played a game with Brayarth in a drop pod today against a shadowsword and 2 baneblades. He took two shadowsword shots to the face at BS 5+ and took two wounds and killed the shadow sword (dealing about 20 wounds) and put the other baneblade from 25 wounds to 4. He was supported by a JP librarian with MoH and VoT. I had some good luck, but damn it was amazing to see him soak that fire.

While melta is thematic for Salies, plasma is in a very good spot right now. With their tactics allowing re-rolls, you can overcharge with confidence, without having to hug your captain for a buff aura.

In that vein, Saly ironclads probably don’t need to bother with the paired CC weapons for the re-roll. I think you will get a lot more milage out of the hurricane. IMHO there is 0 reason to take the hammer. -1 to hit is not worth going from 4 to 5 damage.

In general everyone benefits from having buff bubbles around, both captains and Lts. That said MSU salamanders need them the least. You have one or two notable guns in the squad, and they can use the chapter tactics for the same effect. But the HQs will boost the rest of the squad, and can hand out the buffs to things without chapter tactics (like razors and other tanks)

Agressors are very short range, but can crank out a ton of fire within that. I’d worry about them being vulnerable to outmaneuvering and long range fire. They do own the turf they are on until removed though. Cost a chunk for that privilege though.

Both LC devs and Preds are viable, with pros/cons. One thing to consider is sticking a ML in with the LCs for a dev squad to take advantage of the stratagem. Same could be said about a HB.

As for other stuff:
I’ve been unimpressed with my speeders lately, but will admit to not fielding them as often as I used to. Plus the -1 to hit for moving firing has not done kind things to most of their loads. Granted the HF doesn’t care, so might be the best option.

What you have listed is a pretty good mix of firepower. What to add to that depends a lot on who you expect to face and individual playstyle preferences. The one thing I might suggest is a bare bones scout squad or two for screening and board presence.

Pondering taking Chapter Master upgrade and Storm of Fire Warlord trait take 2:

PreFAQ I asked about these in context of a pure marine list with 7 CPs to start. Chapter master seemed too expensive and my list was mostly buffing things with high base AP, so Storm of Fire was overkill.

Now, I've got an AM battalion, starting from a base of 14 CP, and have a whole bunch of Aggressors who can benefit from Storm of Fire.

Warlord:
Storm of Fire is a +8% bonus to pretty much all my shooting. Sounds quite good, right? But that means giving up Grand Strategist, which works out to about +6 CP over the course of a game (even more coupled with the Aquila). Given the AM battalion costed 10% of my points to begin with, trading away those CPs for +8% back seems a poor deal...Except for the fact that Space Marines don't exactly have superb strats. Eventually you just can't buy an effect as large as +8% at the equiv cost of 1CP/turn (no free 6 CP over 6 game turns).

Chapter Master:
Chapter master gives a +14% bonus to my BS3 shooting, of which, I do have a lot. +14% for 3 is an even better deal than +8% for 6. Chapter master seems a solid buy now.

Here we are, I've talked myself into the merits of both, and I look at my CP use:
-1 CP relic
-3 CPs chapter master
-4 CPs SftS
...D'oh, now I'm all the way back down to 6 CPs before the game even started, which won't cover multiple Hellfire+Flak, let alone rerolls.

...Although, 2D3 mortal wounds is close to the same as +8% more normal shooting wounds from my list, so maybe that's just paying 2/turn to do more flexibly what storm of fire grants me for 1/turn...

TL;DR; Version: I think chapter master is worth it with this many CPs, while Storm of Fire is a...maybe?...

Isnt CM 3CP? Seems expensive when you could take Shrike or Lias Issodon instead...

Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG . I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.

Oops, yes, it’s 3. Doesn’t change my conclusion, but does explain better why originally I never bothered :p. Will edit.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG . I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.

Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.

I think it depends how much you think you need CP once the game starts, but shrike existing makes it an easier choice.

Shrike + a Lt warlord with storm of fire seems like the way to go to me.

Another thing to note with the FW special characters is that they technically cant be locked to the Parent Chapter warlord trait. So you can feel free to take Storm Of Fire for Lias for those Aggressors. They like Lias for that movement bonus. Assuming they don't die of course.

Hmm, good points. Named master + SoF is the least efficient in terms of CP midgame, but does have the upside of paying points for the bonus you can buy and then still getting the SoF bonus you can't really pay points for.

As much as I'd prefer Lias' gun, the fact he's nearly double in cost rules him out without making use of the special deployment.

Shrike is a viable route, that's basically paying 40pts and losing a thunder hammer wound in CC for 3 CPs if I replace a smashcaptain.

Shrike vrs a smash captain actually math hammers out to be relatively close depending on what your throwing him at as to which one is better.
The biggest decider is if you have another assualt unit to benifit from winged deliverance.

Ice_can wrote:
Shrike vrs a smash captain actually math hammers out to be relatively close depending on what your throwing him at as to which one is better.
The biggest decider is if you have another assualt unit to benifit from winged deliverance.

I'm figuring with all those bolter shots that my biggest worry is high toughness units, which is unfortunately where the thunder hammer does math better. I closed the calc, but I think it was like 3/4 a wound vs T7 4++ and a bit over a wound vs T8 3+. And no, no other assault units anymore, which was why I dropped Shrike in a prior iteration.

Yeah shrike as a solo assualt units isn't giving the benifit to another unit that makes him worth it.
To be honest it really depends on your meta, the rest of your list and what you need your assualt element to be able to tackle.

bort wrote:
Hmm, good points. Named master + SoF is the least efficient in terms of CP midgame, but does have the upside of paying points for the bonus you can buy and then still getting the SoF bonus you can't really pay points for.

As much as I'd prefer Lias' gun, the fact he's nearly double in cost rules him out without making use of the special deployment.

Shrike is a viable route, that's basically paying 40pts and losing a thunder hammer wound in CC for 3 CPs if I replace a smashcaptain.

Well did you really want to charge with an HQ you were using to buff those units in the first place?

But yeah, with Lias you'd have to use the ability at least once to make up for the cost of a Drop Pod. I'm sure you can think of at least one unit you'd like to put in a Drop Pod but not ever pay for a Drop Pod...