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 vaklor4 wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.

As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.

For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.

I guess I see it from the flip side; I faced 2 of the AC Armigers, and against PBC's (the main target in the matchup here) it showed where the AC Armigers shortfall... this was facing AdMech with the reroll 1's house trait.

Over the course of 3 turns, they did 3 wounds to a demon prince and 6 wounds to a PBC before both biting it. AP -1 hurts them, but not only that, T8+ targets are rough for them, especially with FNP (my saves weren't even that hot....) I guess we will see how it pans out.

I find a pair or even 3 Armigers to be tempting in a DE heavy meta for the following reasons
- Perfect guns for shooting DE vehicles, huge range allowing you to out-range ravagers
- Move and shoot at full capacity, allowing you to hide behind LOS blockers turn 1 to stay safe from alpha strike
- Long range shooting threat that can be present around turn 1, mitigating the significant deep strike limitation of obliterators
- Relatively point-efficient
- Actually not half bad when shooting at Riptides and Necron vehicles, which is a great boon since Chaos in general is already well equipped to fight imperium

 blackmage wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.

As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.

For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.

but im not going to play a pure renegade list, just a superheavy detach with nurgle demon battalion+Ts supreme command, i just would like to switch my Dg outrider (3 drones+Dp) with double gatling Ik+armiger+armiger, im thinking about double cannon im not attracted by a model with ab 3+ and a weapon with d3 shots, im looking to improve match up against armies like De.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think there's merit behind the Autocannon Armigers. Predators are limited in Rule of Three and, if that stays, Armigers are an excellent substitute.

and armigers have +1 wound tsi 5++ move 14" no penalty to fire heavy weapons and moving and cost less, can deal some damage in CaC, not comparable. In any case rule of 3 will remain is not a beta, they wont delete it, 100% sure.

If only the Armigers could get a reroll from the Lord or Captain huh?

I think if you want to use shooty Amigers, then the key thing is to not use them to shoot T8 targets. (Hard against an all knight army, but there should be other types of targets in any other sort of army). Like actually, Shooty Amigers should be fine against a DP because at least its a 3+ to wound rather than 5+.

Defilers are very interesting. I loved Defilers. But I didn't see many being used in any sort of lists at all. Maybe now with knight lists in the meta, we will see Defilers used more often. One thing about Defilers, they take up a heavy support slot, but they are definitely NOT the equivalent of other heavy support slots in terms of shooty firepower.

If we want to bring say two defilers, we will need to make sure we have other stuff which can shoot down big targets. After all, those two Defilers aren't going to be able to walk up and take down a Castellan or a Shadowsword on turn 1. (If they can, the opponent is playing his army wrong).

Maybe a list with two Defilers and a renegade Castellan...

i dont bring armigers to deal with Ik's, they help a lot against De for example, wounding their veichles at 3+ and delivering 3 wounds for each failed save, couple of failed save and ravagers start hitting at 4+, and that can be achieved by a single armiger.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think if you want to use shooty Amigers, then the key thing is to not use them to shoot T8 targets. (Hard against an all knight army, but there should be other types of targets in any other sort of army). Like actually, Shooty Amigers should be fine against a DP because at least its a 3+ to wound rather than 5+.

Defilers are very interesting. I loved Defilers. But I didn't see many being used in any sort of lists at all. Maybe now with knight lists in the meta, we will see Defilers used more often. One thing about Defilers, they take up a heavy support slot, but they are definitely NOT the equivalent of other heavy support slots in terms of shooty firepower.

If we want to bring say two defilers, we will need to make sure we have other stuff which can shoot down big targets. After all, those two Defilers aren't going to be able to walk up and take down a Castellan or a Shadowsword on turn 1. (If they can, the opponent is playing his army wrong).

Maybe a list with two Defilers and a renegade Castellan...

Bingo. Armigers can work well in a low toughness meta, so it really depends on what you see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
i dont bring armigers to deal with Ik's, they help a lot against De for example, wounding their veichles at 3+ and delivering 3 wounds for each failed save, couple of failed save and ravagers start hitting at 4+, and that can be achieved by a single armiger.

Don't forget that DE has access to - hit shenanigans, especially if its a Ynnari/DE, or Eldar/DE force. Altaioc especially.

I look forward to seeing how Armigers do, but I'm sticking on the PBC train; yes, they are low range, but extremely durable and don't suffer from hit penalties (plus, I wanna run my Trees more)

yes they have -x that's right i need to see how armigers deal with it.

Well they do have the 2 CP re-roll stratagem, but that is the extent of synergy available to Armigers for dealing with this. And since re-rolls happen before modifiers it is slightly less effective at 2 CP compared to what Daemon Engines can do with Daemon Forge. But if you don't have a big Knight, you might as well use it for the Auto Cannon Armiger to land a few more hits on target if you really have to shoot at the -2 target.

So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?

 CountEjacula138 wrote:
So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?

I put combi-bolters on mine, and just have counts-as plasma, there is literally no point in the amount of effort it would take to make a combi-plasma squad of termies.

And for melee options, I generally go either axe or fist. Fist for the most anti-tank, and axe if im just dropping them as super elite units.
But in general, Terminators are pretty strictly garagehammer tier. Bad against a LOT of things, and really expensive to field.

I do really hate that I bought some RIGHT before they took Turn 1 Deepstrike away. Still I'm trying to make them slightly viable since I play IW and they're fond of their termies.

I suspect Terminators might be mainly of use in games on large tables. Something where a flyer or similar can jump onto a neutral objective T1 and then you can teleport onto it T2. Units with staying power, teleporting into a ruin or suchlike, with some firepower to project and some melee teeth to bare at ground forces trying to dislodge them.

Riding in a Land Raider is looking a bit more attractive. Could Warptime it in your opponent's face, cast an endurance spell on it, and then jump out and start punching corpse-botherers.

 CountEjacula138 wrote:
So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?

At this point I'm on board with terminators strictly for the fact that I like the models. Expectedly, they've never performed well for me, not for their price tag at least. I'm strongly considering purchasing a bunch of lightning claws and throwing them on my World Eater's Terminators - double claws on each. I'd likely have them riding in my land raider, ready to pop out when things get to close or the opportunity is right. I'd be looking at 4 attacks with each model, rerolling failed wounds.. not too shabby on paper.

10 World Eaters terminators. 2 units of 5. Champions modeled with chainfists, combi-bolters, and an Icon of Wrath. The other 4 modeled with combi-bolters and power axes. I haven't finished them yet, but will probably either count their guns as combi-plasma or just run 'em as bolters. Also purely for love of the models. The FW upgrade kits are so cool.

 CountEjacula138 wrote:
So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?

Competitively, Termies are poop on a stick. They cost too many points and are far more fragile than their 2+/5++ 2W statline would suggest.

Now, for casual play, they are certainly cool. I've got a unit of DG Blightlords that I converted to have 4 Combi-plasmas and a flail, and in addition to being awesome models they were super fun to play with. And DG terminators are probably the best Terminators in the whole game thanks to T5 and Disgustingly Resilient, but they are still overcosted for what they do.

In casual games i like to use Powermaul Terminators (in a Renegade Chapter). While overcosted, they're definitely fun against anything T3. Dropping them last minute, after the opponent used Tide of Traitors or is defending an objective with some units far away from the battle, these guys drop their hammers & wound on 2+. Expensive - too expensive in fact - but still very fun.

I suspect my Terminators are mostly going to be used for Prospero

They’re Word Bearers in Indomitus pattern, and they’ve got combi-plasmas that aren’t WYSIWYG, but they’re easy enough to narrative in the crate of board games I take to various socials

Hmm. Dual Lightning Claws any good? Loyalists sometimes use them, but they play second fiddle to the THSS guys, and they don’t have the opportunity cost of a combi-weapon...

What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....

To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)

I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...

Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.

What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)

Would fiends of Slanesh prevent the Knight from both shooting melee dudes in contact with it and falling back?

Dactylartha wrote:
Would fiends of Slanesh prevent the Knight from both shooting melee dudes in contact with it and falling back?

they can only prevent fall back, btw normal knight cant shoot if engaged in melee, those are forgeworld knights.

 blackmage wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Would fiends of Slanesh prevent the Knight from both shooting melee dudes in contact with it and falling back?

they can only prevent fall back, btw normal knight cant shoot if engaged in melee, those are forgeworld knights.

Skarbrand does the same in an Aura, but than again .. it's Skarbrand. He just deletes Knights in close combat.

 blackmage wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Would fiends of Slanesh prevent the Knight from both shooting melee dudes in contact with it and falling back?

they can only prevent fall back, btw normal knight cant shoot if engaged in melee, those are forgeworld knights.

So a single fiend forces the Knight to step on it if the fiend survives into their turn? Seems like a good trade.

I have a headless (unpainted) Skarbrand. His aura can be beaten, but I plan on bringing him most games after he's finished.

i doubt 1 fiend survive 12 str8 d d3 attacks

 blackmage wrote:
i doubt 1 fiend survive 12 str8 d d3 attacks

No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?

Dactylartha wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
i doubt 1 fiend survive 12 str8 d d3 attacks

No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?

You can split attacks quite easily as long as they are declared prior to rolling. Knight would kill both quite easily. The problem I think is that maybe you are forgetting that the knight attacks the fiend after it swings during your fight phase. Also the overwatch will be brutal (like charging the conflag cannon...), and then you get to swing (do not damage with the fiends) and eat an entire set of attacks from the knight.

orkswubwub wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
i doubt 1 fiend survive 12 str8 d d3 attacks

No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?

You can split attacks quite easily as long as they are declared prior to rolling. Knight would kill both quite easily. The problem I think is that maybe you are forgetting that the knight attacks the fiend after it swings during your fight phase. Also the overwatch will be brutal (like charging the conflag cannon...), and then you get to swing (do not damage with the fiends) and eat an entire set of attacks from the knight.

Warp Talons against the conflag cannon would do wonders.

I don't think you can split attacks from a single weapon.

orkswubwub wrote:
What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....

To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)

I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...

Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.

What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)

Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.

I have 14 missile launchers in my list just in tac and small havoc squads. Its sensible against all opponent types for sure. Also after seeing Dark Eldar maraud around in venoms and raisers I cant see this tren reversing itself. Gotta reduce that protection to ashes or else. Knight just accentuate what we already know.

Dactylartha wrote:
I don't think you can split attacks from a single weapon.

you can split them, read carefully below