8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**the.cobb**

ClockworkZion wrote:
I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods..

I believe the Throne Mechanicum only permits the worship of Chaos Undivided; getting the different personalities that make up the collective consciousness that sits within the Throne to agree on worshipping one sole chaos god must be frightfully difficult.

On the tactical front, there was some discussion some pages ago post faq about using bikes. Just wondering if folks have been finding them useful?

**lindsay40k**

@blackmage

Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords

A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword

The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword

The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword

Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc

A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters

The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

Has anyone picked up a termite yet? I’ve been thinking about it (among other things) and it seems really dang solid. Only 4 points more than a Dreadclaw, but doesn’t seem to lose much in comparison if deep striking it. Can shoot, carry 2 more models, and is T8.

The Dreadclaw looks way cooler, can fly over stuff, and can move farther. Better in some ways, I s’pose, if starting it on the table, but not so much that I wouldn’t just take a Rhino. I guess I’d use my Dreadclaws for dropping brutes/contemptors and leave the termites to ferry troops?

**Slayer-Fan123**

I think they both have their pros and cons, but I can at least tell you that, as an AdMech player, I'm loving my Termites so much.

**blackmage**

lindsay40k wrote:
@blackmage

Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords

A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword

The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword

The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword

Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc

A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters

The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas

yes that's obviously clear, i was wondering what you meant with "it become regular kw after the battle begins" a faction kw remain a faction kw, a generic kw remain a generic kw, nothing change after the battle begins. Nurgle obliterators are simply NURGLE DEMONS cause they have both keywords... nothing more nothing less.

**Captyn_Bob**

Niiru wrote:
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).

So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.

However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."

So... Can't I have a detachment like this:

Chaos Lord <Emperors Children>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters>

And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?

Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).

Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.

Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...

This works, but losing out on legion traits is quite a big deal.

**Niiru**

blackmage wrote:
lindsay40k wrote:
@blackmage

Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords

A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword

The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword

The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword

Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc

A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters

The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas

yes that's obviously clear, i was wondering what you meant with "it become regular kw after the battle begins" a faction kw remain a faction kw, a generic kw remain a generic kw, nothing change after the battle begins. Nurgle obliterators are simply NURGLE DEMONS cause they have both keywords... nothing more nothing less.

Pretty sure Lindsay means that there is no such this as a 'faction' keyword or generic 'keyword' as soon as the game starts. Once the game is in progress, they all become just 'keywords' as far as any of the current rules stand.

The separation of Faction from Generic is only really relevant for certain rules that affect army formation I think, such as detachments and traits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).

So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.

However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."

So... Can't I have a detachment like this:

Chaos Lord <Emperors Children>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters>

And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?

Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).

Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.

Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...

This works, but losing out on legion traits is quite a big deal.

Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.

**akaean**

Niiru wrote:

Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.

I would argue that actually. I think the EC trait is actually one of the better ones available. Probably not as good as Alpha Legion, but at least on the same level as Renegades. Its not something that comes up often, but it has a really big impact on games when it does. When I play armies that are not EC, often times I will want to spend 2 Command Points to interrupt my opponents fight phase, and have a key unit swing. When you consider that if you are playing EC you interrupt automatically with your Prince / Infantry / Bikers, you are effectively saving 2 Command Points every time you would have spent those points to interrupt with any other faction. That is pretty great if even comes up just one time in a game- thats an entire additional Endless Cacophony, or 2 applications of Veterans of the Long War!

Even just look back at your games. Every time you have used or wanted to use the 2 CP combat interrupt strategem on a Marine, Bike, or Prince... if you were playing EC that would have been free.

**Niiru**

akaean wrote:
Niiru wrote:

Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.

I would argue that actually. I think the EC trait is actually one of the better ones available. Probably not as good as Alpha Legion, but at least on the same level as Renegades. Its not something that comes up often, but it has a really big impact on games when it does. When I play armies that are not EC, often times I will want to spend 2 Command Points to interrupt my opponents fight phase, and have a key unit swing. When you consider that if you are playing EC you interrupt automatically with your Prince / Infantry / Bikers, you are effectively saving 2 Command Points every time you would have spent those points to interrupt with any other faction. That is pretty great if even comes up just one time in a game- thats an entire additional Endless Cacophony, or 2 applications of Veterans of the Long War!

Even just look back at your games. Every time you have used or wanted to use the 2 CP combat interrupt strategem on a Marine, Bike, or Prince... if you were playing EC that would have been free.

Dont think that's a stratagem I've even considered worth using, let along actually spent 2 precious CP on it. I can see it being useful in specific lists, where your unit going first means you wiping out the opponents squad before they get a chance to do much/any damage. Otherwise you're just spending 2CP to do maybe one or two additional wounds in a fight, which is nowhere near worth it.

Though this is totally YMMV. If your list is geared up to make use of it then fine, same with the EC trait. Or if you're swimming in CP anyway. I struggle to have more than 9 CP in a list with Chaos though (and that's with the Chapter Approved buffs to CP), so spending almost a quarter of my CP on that wouldn't be very effective.

**McGibs**

If you don't think combat inturrupts are useful, it's probobly because you arent playing combat armies. I think they're invaluable.
Swinging first with a prince or dread (or berserkers) can be a HUGE deal as those units can usually destroy or cripple whatever theyre fighting, but are also sorta flimsy themselves and can't suck up much damage.

**ClockworkZion**

the.cobb wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods..

I believe the Throne Mechanicum only permits the worship of Chaos Undivided; getting the different personalities that make up the collective consciousness that sits within the Throne to agree on worshipping one sole chaos god must be frightfully difficult.

On the tactical front, there was some discussion some pages ago post faq about using bikes. Just wondering if folks have been finding them useful?

I'd argue that the machine spirit (whose ego can, and sometimes does, overpower the ego of the pilot in machines like the knight) can push the knight towards a particular god (a machine that seeks to crush the enemy in melee can fall to Khorne for example) and that's not even getting into inevitable enslaving of daemons to serve as the machine spirit.

**Niiru**

McGibs wrote:
If you don't think combat inturrupts are useful, it's probobly because you arent playing combat armies. I think they're invaluable.
Swinging first with a prince or dread (or berserkers) can be a HUGE deal as those units can usually destroy or cripple whatever theyre fighting, but are also sorta flimsy themselves and can't suck up much damage.

It's not that I don't think they're useful, its just that I think 120 points and 5CP is likely to be MORE useful.

I'm no expert player though, I may well be wrong. I'm still throwing list ideas together, and EC and Alpha Legion are still both in the running as my legion choice for various reasons.

DG are so hard to ignore though, just because they actually have a lot more good units to play with.

**ClockworkZion**

I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.

I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.

**Niiru**

ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.

I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.

I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.

**ClockworkZion**

Niiru wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.

I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.

I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.

I just can't make the basic CSM feel like they're pulling they're weight. Maybe it's the loss of stat buffs from taking marks, or the loss of the ability to buy extra attacks on regular guys without losing shooting options.....or maybe it's just how meh the Marine statline feels in 8th (especially with how the Primaris marine statline feels more like what Marines should like in this edition).

I WANT to like regular CSM, but in the end I keep looking at taking the starter box and using them as Chosen instead because I just find the balance point for the basic guys.

Heck, even the blandness of the Thousand Sons options have me more excited right now and I've only been pouring over their stuff lately because I've been looking for an excuse for yonks to build their models and with Kill Team I'm likely to pick up a box of both Rubrics and Goats. And I find it sad that a troop choice with three weapon choices is more exciting to field than the level of customization of the regular CSM, there is something wrong with basic CSM and I just can't pin down what needs to be fixed exactly to make them worth taking.

Maybe Chaos Primaris with extra spikes and tentacles. I don't know.

**Heafstaag**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Niiru wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.

I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.

I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.

I just can't make the basic CSM feel like they're pulling they're weight. Maybe it's the loss of stat buffs from taking marks, or the loss of the ability to buy extra attacks on regular guys without losing shooting options.....or maybe it's just how meh the Marine statline feels in 8th (especially with how the Primaris marine statline feels more like what Marines should like in this edition).

I WANT to like regular CSM, but in the end I keep looking at taking the starter box and using them as Chosen instead because I just find the balance point for the basic guys.

Heck, even the blandness of the Thousand Sons options have me more excited right now and I've only been pouring over their stuff lately because I've been looking for an excuse for yonks to build their models and with Kill Team I'm likely to pick up a box of both Rubrics and Goats. And I find it sad that a troop choice with three weapon choices is more exciting to field than the level of customization of the regular CSM, there is something wrong with basic CSM and I just can't pin down what needs to be fixed exactly to make them worth taking.

Maybe Chaos Primaris with extra spikes and tentacles. I don't know.

They need to be able to take chainswords again, like grey hunters still can. (well, for the moment, who knows what their new codex will bring)

**ClockworkZion**

Heafstaag wrote:
They need to be able to take chainswords again, like grey hunters still can. (well, for the moment, who knows what their new codex will bring)

I feel like it'd be a start, but I also feel like Marks should give a bonus again instead of just being a keyword. But I get that it's hard to balance stuff like that.

But yes, the ability to run a more all-rounder troop (even if we had to pay a point a model to buy that extra attack) would likely do a lot to make them worth taking on the table.

Swapping out for melee just doesn't cut it in this edition (at least not right now, maybe if they got a points drop or something), and if you take specials (namely flamers) to balance out the squad a little you lose some of your extra melee power.

Objective secured doesn't even really help them as much as I want it to as while being tougher does give a decent anvil to the army over cultists, they don't really bring enough to warrant more than MSU objective holders who don't die as fast as cultists do while you set up a turn two beta strike or combo up the board with other options with choppier units to really tear into things.

The Renegade chapter tactic actually makes this problem even worse as it denies VotLW, one of the few strategems that could make the unit better.

Basically there is just too much stacked against them at the moment to really make the basic marine worth taking as a troop.

**Iur_tae_mont**

CSM and Tacs are just in a bad spot.

Tacs at least can find a home. Space Marines have Scouts for going cheap, Tacticals for flexible weapon choices, and Primaris if they want Multiwounds.

There's at least a reason to bring tacs along because They have access to things that other Troops in their codex don't get and their troop choices don't really grow past a certain point.

But the regular Chaos Marine competes with Cultists in the same book And with cultists, Weapons don't really matter as much. 40 Autoguns That can redeploy and replenish to full strength at a whim to focus fire my opponent's table edge huggers? For 4 more points than 10 CSM with 2 Plasma?

**Abaddon303**

My personal opinion is that you should be able to take chosen as troops, at least for black legion. I don't see how they are anymore overpowered than the other cult troops available to other legions.
The fact chaos marines are supposed to be veterans of the long war and have had thousands of years to pick up new weaponry or abilities just isn't reflected in the game...

**saint_red**

So I'm sitting here looking at my 10 combi-plasma terminators and wondering if there's any way of using them post beta deep strike rules. I've used them in a couple of games where they drop on turn 2 and cast Prescience + Delightful Agonies instead of Warptime, but I find that unless they get into combat they are too expensive and get shot to pieces.

I was thinking of just running them as Alpha Legion and using the Forward Operatives stratagem, which would allow them to get into combat turn 1 and I could chuck DA on them as well. Has anyone tried this out yet? I'm thinking I might be better off with 2 units of plasma Chosen instead but I want to make my terminators work somehow.

**Abaddon303**

Well slaanesh marked with endless cacophony they should drop a knight when they come in so they can certainly make their points back but that doesn't help how quickly they die.
I think they only ever really work as a suicide bomb and it's about causing maximum damage when they come in, anything else is a bonus. Personally I've given up taking terminators which is a shame, obliterators do what they do better I feel, but 10 terminators can get more wounds out of EC strat

**ClockworkZion**

Suicide Termi-drops have long been a tradition of the CSM codex (I recall that being the tactic in 5th edition for using them). That said, they can put out more firepower than they used to be able to and can do it more reliably (VotLW), but they still go down to a stiff breeze (stiff breeze being weight of fire since that works pretty effectively without wasting anti-tank weapons on the models), and plasma (which is better than it was back in 5th as well).

So basically, we have the same old trick for them, but with the added bonus of them doing it without scatter and with higher firepower than they used to have. I'd call that a good thing.

**buddha**

Beyond wishlisting base CSMs bring nothing to the table. Cultists bring numbers and objective holders while cult Marines actually specialized enough to be killy.

My feeling has always been that there shouldn't be a CSM entry and chosen should be the base troop profile. They would at least be a reason to take a non-cult marine choice.

**ClockworkZion**

buddha wrote:
Beyond wishlisting base CSMs bring nothing to the table. Cultists bring numbers and objective holders while cult Marines actually specialized enough to be killy.

My feeling has always been that there shouldn't be a CSM entry and chosen should be the base troop profile. They would at least be a reason to take a non-cult marine choice.

Or, and this is crazy, we could buff base CSM to Chosen levels and then buff Chosen (and by extension Terminators) up a level on top of that (+1Ld and Attack, maybe another wound too, give them a special rule based on their mark (or lack of) to reflect the fact they're called Chosen for a reason....)...you know, make the CSM good but make the Chosen feel like a real elite option in an army that has a lot of specialized elites that overshadow the generalists too much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking back at the post we should probably kill the wishlisting before this thread goes further off topic. Basically to sum up that even to someone who wants to run regular CSM, they're just to lacking at the moment to see table time.

Which is frustrating because I don't really feel enthusiastic about Cultists. Largely because we don't have a good kit for them to customize the unit properly and partially because I wish we could drop some extra points for more interesting weapons instead of what they bring as is (like the option to run them like a corrupted PDF at least).

**Slayer-Fan123**

Abaddon303 wrote:
My personal opinion is that you should be able to take chosen as troops, at least for black legion. I don't see how they are anymore overpowered than the other cult troops available to other legions.
The fact chaos marines are supposed to be veterans of the long war and have had thousands of years to pick up new weaponry or abilities just isn't reflected in the game...

Chosen should've been troops along with Havocs being given a Vet statline, and Cultists should be able to protect Infantry Space Marines from incoming fire like with Characters.

**Skullphoquer**

I would not use CSM either.
But dont forget there is a black legion list outside which made it pretty well with 3*10 cms.

The only time i though about using CSM was in an AL list, like 2*20 CSM with forward operation/VotlW/endless kakaphonie.

**ClockworkZion**

Skullphoquer wrote:
I would not use CSM either.
But dont forget there is a black legion list outside which made it pretty well with 3*10 cms.

The only time i though about using CSM was in an AL list, like 2*20 CSM with forward operation/VotlW/endless kakaphonie.

Black Legion do give them a fair amount of bonuses since they seem to be geared towards mid-range shooting with decent survivability if in cover on an objective, but sadly they just don't really bring much else to the table. AL lets them take objectives early and hold them reasonably well but outside of getting a leadership buff (+2 if you go unmarked with the icon) or go AL for infiltrating and getting a -1 to hit at range early game/versus gunlines and the ability to double shoot with MoS I just don't see much that works for them over.

**Niiru**

Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?

Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP
- FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.

So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.

Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.

(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).

**MinMax**

Niiru wrote:

Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?

Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP
- FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.

So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.

Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.

(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).

I would recommend running a NURGLE detachment, rather than going out of your way to form a Death Guard detachment. Characters rarely care about Legion Traits, Bloat Drones don't get them to begin with, and you could easily toss in a Spawn to round out a NURGLE Outrider Detachment on the cheap. You can even toss in a handful of Nurglings to shove back enemy infiltrators and deep strikers early in the game.

**Niiru**

MinMax wrote:
Niiru wrote:

Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?

Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP
- FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.

So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.

Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.

(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).

I would recommend running a NURGLE detachment, rather than going out of your way to form a Death Guard detachment. Characters rarely care about Legion Traits, Bloat Drones don't get them to begin with, and you could easily toss in a Spawn to round out a NURGLE Outrider Detachment on the cheap. You can even toss in a handful of Nurglings to shove back enemy infiltrators and deep strikers early in the game.

...I do currently have a daemons detachment with nurglings in it for that reason... I didnt think you could field Drones outside of a death guard detachment?

Is it actually 'legal' to run a Nurgle detachment? I'd need a HQ, which would probably have to be a Prince (my list runs two princes, so I'd need to slot them and their points in where I can), which -would- feel the pain of losing out on a legion trait.