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I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
Well we DO have some good relics for the generic Characters. Blade Of The Hydra, Black Mace, etc. Some of them are pretty lackluster like Axe of Blind Fury and such.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well we DO have some good relics for the generic Characters. Blade Of The Hydra, Black Mace, etc. Some of them are pretty lackluster like Axe of Blind Fury and such.
Requires chain sword, requires power mace, neither of which are options for the Prince.
Which was pretty much my problem - You can't run a CSM army with Princes as your HQ, without basically forfeiting your Relic choice (And in some cases your warlord trait options). You'd have to spend a tax of 100 extra points on a Lord or Sorcerer in order to have someone who can take a relic (meaning 500 points of your army is based on 3 models).
How many points are you playing with? It's rare for me to not have at least 3hqs in anything 1750 up.
Consider an exalted champion with the black mace to back up your prince with the rerolls to wound?
Chain axe beserkers ex champion and a Daemon Prince make a pretty unstoppable beat stick, haven't mathed it but pretty sure they'd easily take down a Knight dominus in one go...
Abaddon303 wrote: How many points are you playing with? It's rare for me to not have at least 3hqs in anything 1750 up.
Consider an exalted champion with the black mace to back up your prince with the rerolls to wound?
Chain axe beserkers ex champion and a Daemon Prince make a pretty unstoppable beat stick, haven't mathed it but pretty sure they'd easily take down a Knight dominus in one go...
Assuming this is aimed at me, adding more HQ's doesn't really solve the problem. The alternative options for Princes are still all significantly better (like 50+ points worth) than the vanilla CSM prince, but they cost the same, along with having better relics and warlord traits.
Probably going to just have to put up with it, and just run them anyway, but if I did ever play competitively then running stock princes vs any other codex prince is a massive disability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/29 22:43:54
Niiru wrote: I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
CSM daemon princes are not competitive units. I wouldn't run them at all if I was trying for pure Alpha Legion. Better to stack things that actually benefit from -1 to hit and are not totally and utterly outclassed by their Thousand Sons counterparts.
Making a daemon prince Alpha Legion is a pretty self-defeating combo tbh. Alpha Legion wants to be more than 12" away. Daemon princes want to charge.
Gunline is likely what you want. Something like a hellforged leviathan with dual butcher cannons and some -1 to hit cultist screens to disable enemy charges entirely. Throw in a lord to reroll those 1s and you'll have a firebase that almost guarantees that it will land 15-16 S8 shots every turn from 36" away.
Alpha Legion is all about maximizing the benefits of -1 to hit. If your hardest hitting unit combos don't have that, not sure what kind of results you're expecting.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/29 23:43:13
Niiru wrote: I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
CSM daemon princes are not competitive units. I wouldn't run them at all if I was trying for pure Alpha Legion. Better to stack things that actually benefit from -1 to hit and are not totally and utterly outclassed by their Thousand Sons counterparts.
Making a daemon prince Alpha Legion is a pretty self-defeating combo tbh. Alpha Legion wants to be more than 12" away. Daemon princes want to charge.
Gunline is likely what you want. Something like a hellforged leviathan with dual butcher cannons and some -1 to hit cultist screens to disable enemy charges entirely. Throw in a lord to reroll those 1s. Alpha Legion is all about maximizing the benefits of -1 to hit. If your hardest hitting unit combos don't have that, not sure what kind of results you're expecting.
Yeh, a Leviathan is on my possibility list, but I won't be huddling in a corner gunlining people... if I wanted to play a boring cookie-cutter list, I could just go Ultramarines and do it properly!
I chose Alpha legion from a perspective of the fluff of my army, the -1 to hit trait was more of a side effect, but will at least give some protection to some of my units as they cross the board (or from enemy units that are longer range).
Basically the Legions that I -wont- use are:
Black Legion
Iron Warriors
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Alpha legion is also throwing zerkers into your face with the stratagem.
Thinking of alpha as pure shooty is a mistake. The trait is also useful as a defense until you get to melee (at least against the big guns or back)
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
I'm curious too. They're one of the only Terminators to be almost worth their price.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
blackmage wrote: show me a list which had success ( i mean high level tournaments) and play a decent number of rubrics, please.
Ps: why put death hex with a casting cost of 8 to aspiring sorcerer when you can have Ahriman or a Dp with high magister, try to cast a important spell like death hex without any bonus is wrong it will go off 5/12 times, no sense, smite with 1 mortal wound is nothing just a small bonus, btw for a tournament player rubrics will remain trash, im sorry.
Yes, because everyone plays top table high level games that follow missions and restrictions that are different than the core rules of the game and require a level of specialized optimization that only exist in that meta and thus they should only look at that meta to find the best list for the locale they play.
I pointed out a rather clear restriction on Rubrics (I'd never recommend more than 20 in a 2k lists), and the CP issue making Tzaangors (and Cultists) making them more popular of a choice (because let's be honest, if you need a durable anvil unit Tzaangors aren't a reasonable choice due to their squishiness).
And Death Hex was an example, but if you'd noticed I said "as a back up" as in you take it for if you lose your HQ that is carrying Death Hex (say, late in the game where you're running lower on CP and don't want to spend it on the Familiar) and in the meantime you throw out smite instead, you wouldn't be asking why I'd be using it on a AS instead of an HQ.
What would be so bad with flamer rubrics being an actual thing?
If they wanted to prevent spam, the choice should have been to not have 10 in the box and just restrict the number, but as it is priced its utterly useless-you can't afford to put an overpriced gun on an already overpriced platform.
Rubrics needs about 2 point reduction to their base cost, soulreapers at 5 man squads and about 5 point reduction to flamers in order for them to be a viable choice for competetive games, and even then I'm not sure they'll be good enough to form the core of a competitive list.
Experiance has told me that GW's inital approach to balance tends to be using a large nerf hammer on things followed by eventual fine tuning (in this edition, in old editions they'd just over buff things to make them sell again).
I'd welcome a points decrease but to really make Rubrics a valid options (and by extension CSM), I feel the game needs to break away from CP generation being list based.
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 05:20:24
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
Talking to don via Facebook, he ssid he used them as backlune pressurr. He would drop them behind his enemy T2 after they moved forward, causing them to have to choose where to go. This also forced enemies into his pbcs.
He said the MVP in all but the finals were the terminators. Waiting to hear more, hes writing an analysis later
Hmm, Blightlords are also very well placed to leverage DG trait. 18” double tap with plasma and twin bolters. Very nice unit to drop into an upper floor and not care about a low movement.
Can I give Corruption and the Suppurating Plate to a Death Guard Daemon Prince? (He would be my warlord and I'd use the strategem for the extra relic)
My understanding is that Death Guard relics need a Death Guard warlord, but CD relics only need a Nurgle Daemon warlord, which the Death Guard prince is.
How would:
DG battalion
2 princes w/wings
3X3 nurglings
TS supreme command
Ahriman on disc
2X jump pack sorcerors one with helm of the 3rd eye
Alpha legion Battalion
Apostle
Exalted Champion
2X20 khorne berserkers
40 cultists MoS 14 cultists MoS 2x10 cultists MoS
~2000 14CP
Basically get all your spells off through Ahriman and his buds including a +3 to cast death hex with 24" range. You basically use the nurglings in to hold the table space for cheatfultrating in the berserkers and cultists.
With knights running around with a 2++ (knight astropose) death hex is a really necessary evil and Ahriman is the only F'er to reliably cast it. Plus if I start my smites off with the nurgle princes, the highest it will ever cost is 6+ from the second prince since the T-sons don't suffer a penalty. That gets me some steady mortal wounds.
edit
Im over points, would need to swap a DP or drop s few zerkers I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 16:52:55
i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
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blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
Can I give Corruption and the Suppurating Plate to a Death Guard Daemon Prince? (He would be my warlord and I'd use the strategem for the extra relic)
My understanding is that Death Guard relics need a Death Guard warlord, but CD relics only need a Nurgle Daemon warlord, which the Death Guard prince is.
Am I missing anything that prevents this?
You can't give two relics to one guy.
In addition, you can use the Extra Relics strat for any detachment, even ones you don't have a Warlord from. See the Death Guard FAQ.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
they hit on 2+ and re roll 1's (and also makes Ts unit's within 6" re roll 1's), they have 5 wounds, just for 13 more points. About cultists or you play in large numbers or pretty pointless play units of 10 expecting they do something, they take 4 dead and they risk to evaporate, the only success i had with cultists was a large horde of 40+40+40, btw just my personal experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 19:24:59
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So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
BoomWolf wrote: Alpha legion is also throwing zerkers into your face with the stratagem.
Thinking of alpha as pure shooty is a mistake. The trait is also useful as a defense until you get to melee (at least against the big guns or back)
You're right. Alpha Legion berserkers can potentially combo much better with a daemon prince too since they will contribute to his character protection in that part of the map as he buffs their hits. He would have the movement to make it over there in reasonable time while the berserkers make excellent use of the AL strat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 20:18:01
blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
they hit on 2+ and re roll 1's (and also makes Ts unit's within 6" re roll 1's), they have 5 wounds, just for 13 more points. About cultists or you play in large numbers or pretty pointless play units of 10 expecting they do something, they take 4 dead and they risk to evaporate, the only success i had with cultists was a large horde of 40+40+40, btw just my personal experience.
Well, I wouldn't need them for combat really. Not the point in the list you know. Their also are on other TS units besides Ahriman, who BTW the socerors will be near for the +2 to cast strat so already have reroll 1's. It's not just 13 points either, on a disc they cost 141 as opposed to 120 for the socerors with jump packs. That's 42 points, or 10 cultists.
Cultists unit size is a fair point, I personally prefer running one large and multiple min squads but I figured having a second squad for tide of traitors or strat use was useful in case they were wiped out turn 1. To be honest though, I usually run iron warriors and the cold and bitter trait makes moral a none issue. It is somethign to consider in this list though, your right.
fact is actual competitive lists can wipe easily 20-30 cultists so you need a lot, 10 do nothing if just camp in backfield taking obj but as soon as opponent decide to wipe them he does. Take a look for example to BAO winner list. Btw seems like a sorcerer with jump pack cost 128 non 120 and i dont find any jump pack sorcerer in Ts army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 21:08:38
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Cultists in unit sizes above 20 should never really be taken without Abaddon or some sort of plan to ignore leadership. Killing ~20 cultists is pitifully easy regardless of psychic buffs and everyone knows that tide of traitors is coming so it's unlikely they will risk letting your cultists survive through the morale phase. With Ld6 you can pretty much safely wipe a 40 man squad by killing a little over half.
I'm definitely a fan of multiple small units of 10 Alpha Legion cultists for screening a gunline and infiltrating for board control. But with larger blobs morale is such an issue that a unit of 20-30 cultists isn't actually much more survivable than a minimum unit of 10. IW or Abaddon or planning to spend CP are the ways to play big blobs.
Cultists are easily one of the strongest contenders for MVP of the CSM codex so it's important to get them right. (The other one is probably 3x3 oblits.)
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2 if you're feeling really adventurous (though in general T2 drops tend to be a little too late in the game to matter since your opponent will already have had a chance to reposition and screen optimally for your drop).
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 22:49:33
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2?
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
Thanks for the reply.
Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 22:58:05
barboggo wrote: Cultists in unit sizes above 20 should never really be taken without Abaddon or some sort of plan to ignore leadership. Killing ~20 cultists is pitifully easy regardless of psychic buffs and everyone knows that tide of traitors is coming so it's unlikely they will risk letting your cultists survive through the morale phase. With Ld6 you can pretty much safely wipe a 40 man squad by killing a little over half.
I'm definitely a fan of multiple small units of 10 Alpha Legion cultists for screening a gunline and infiltrating for board control. But with larger blobs morale is such an issue that a unit of 20-30 cultists isn't actually much more survivable than a minimum unit of 10. IW or Abaddon or planning to spend CP are the ways to play big blobs.
Cultists are easily one of the strongest contenders for MVP of the CSM codex so it's important to get them right. (The other one is probably 3x3 oblits.)
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2 if you're feeling really adventurous (though in general T2 drops tend to be a little too late in the game to matter since your opponent will already have had a chance to reposition and screen optimally for your drop).
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
infact that's the only way you have to play cultists if you want have them do something with Abbadon or IW Qg with cold and bitter
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Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
My bad, you might be right on the exalted flamer shots, I get their guns confused all the time. I'm mainly speaking from experience running them, and usually it's been underwhelming. Yeah, they're certainly not bad, but it's more like decent-for-points "utility" dakka rather than straight up hyper efficient "killy" dakka, which I think your list could use a bit more of. Right now your most efficient killy units are the 3x3 oblits (great choice) and the 2 DPs (also good). One more major threat would be a nice addition.
Could you proxy the changeling as a changecaster and use it to buff horrors possibly? Or if you have a small nurgle HQ run it as a sloppity bilepiper to let your nurglings charge and advance to really create a pain in the butt for your opponent. Bloodmasters are also basically the same models as bloodletters so if you have them, it's not a bad cheap hq choice to make a reasonably effective daemon battalion.
I think I was complaining about daemons earlier in this thread so I can totally sympathize with trying to make them work haha.
I've never run soul burner contemptors before but I have a ton of experience running single, double, and triple decimators, and from what I've seen, they go down real fast. Lots of nice mortal wounds once they're in range, but if I didn't get turn one and couldn't hide all of them, it was very common for me to lose 1 to 1.5 decimators a turn (T7, 3+/5++) before they even got a chance to shoot. And by T2 they were most definitely dead.
I strongly prefer a single leviathan with double grav or double butcher as the T8 2+ save makes a pretty big difference against all of the high shot count S7/S8 AP-1/-2 weapons that are common in competitive (reaper launchers, autocannons, butcher cannons, hive guard, etc). Forcing the opponent's S8 to wound on 4s instead of 3s is a big deal against a ton of flat 2 damage shots.
Contemptors do have the advantage of being much smaller than decimators/leviathans so if you can sneak him up all the way into kill range without getting focused then it may do some work.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 23:52:09
Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
My bad, you might be right on the exalted flamer shots, I get their guns confused all the time. I'm mainly speaking from experience running them, and usually it's been underwhelming. Yeah, they're certainly not bad, but it's more like decent-for-points "utility" dakka rather than straight up hyper efficient "killy" dakka, which I think your list could use a bit more of. Right now your most efficient killy units are the 3x3 oblits (great choice) and the 2 DPs (also good). One more major threat would be a nice addition.
Could you proxy the changeling as a changecaster and use it to buff horrors possibly? Or if you have a small nurgle HQ run it as a sloppity bilepiper to let your nurglings charge and advance to really create a pain in the butt for your opponent. Bloodmasters are also basically the same models as bloodletters so if you have them, it's not a bad cheap hq choice to make a reasonably effective daemon battalion.
I think I was complaining about daemons earlier in this thread so I can totally sympathize with trying to make them work haha.
I've never run soul burner contemptors before but I have a ton of experience running single, double, and triple decimators, and from what I've seen, they go down real fast. Lots of nice mortal wounds once they're in range, but if I didn't get turn one and couldn't hide all of them, it was very common for me to lose 1 to 1.5 decimators a turn (T7, 3+/5++) before they even got a chance to shoot. And by T2 they were most definitely dead.
I strongly prefer a single leviathan with double grav or double butcher as the T8 2+ save makes a pretty big difference against all of the high shot count S7/S8 AP-1/-2 weapons that are common in competitive (reaper launchers, autocannons, butcher cannons, hive guard, etc). Forcing the opponent's S8 to wound on 4s instead of 3s is a big deal against a ton of flat 2 damage shots.
Contemptors do have the advantage of being much smaller than decimators/leviathans so if you can sneak him up all the way into kill range without getting focused then it may do some work.
It's only 1x3 Oblits. Obliterators x3 means 3 models not 3 units lol. I can see the confusion though, as Oblits only ever come in a unit of 3 anyway so I didn't need to specify.
I don't have a changeling model yet, that and the Scribes were just picked out because they seemed the most interesting (and relatively cheap) HQ choices to take. Also considered Karanak, who is cheaper and maybe even killier, but isn't a psyker so no smites or buffs.
Current version of the list has the Noise Marines pumped up to Two units of 5, each with Blastmaster and Doom Siren, in the Rhino. The Lord is instead on a Jump Pack, with a squad of 5 Raptors as bodyguards with 2xPlasma Pistol and Chainswords all round. Model-wise it will be better, but I'm not too sure about competitiveness. Points are also now like 2120, so something needs to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So my current version. I haven't chosen what spells to give who, which is why I've just put +spell (they dont cost anything anyway, more for my own records to remember how many spellcasters I have).
1940 points.
Detachment 1 - CSM (Alpha Legion?)
Daemon Prince <Nurgle> - Wings, Warp Bolter, +Spell
Chaos Lord w/ Jump-Pack - Plasma Pistol, Blade of the Hydra
5x Raptors - 3x Plasma Pistols, 2x Bolt Pistols, 5x Chainswords.
Chaos Lord - Combi-plasma, power sword
Noise marines x6 - blastmaster, 5x sonic blaster, champion with power sword and doom siren.
Rhino - 2x combi bolters, havoc launcher
So this version is a bit more structured, being mostly Nurgle based. I know the second Prince will lose out on the Alpha Legion trait, but he gains a 5++ FnP so I think it works out ok in survivability. Also means I gain the Locus of Virulence for a couple extra mortal wounds in a game, and it unlocks Daemon stratagems.
Two lords is a bit much I know, but it fits the fluff of the army to have more characters in place (my fluff, that is), but also fits the Alpha Legion warlord trait quite well too. I have a fair few bodies on the table with cultists, and I have 100 points to spend still. I could change a Lord to a Sorcerer instead I guess.
Mostly Nurgle for all units, but I could change the Noise or Oblits to Slaanesh for the double-fire stratagem potentially. If I was going to play the Noise that way then I'd pump the unit up a bit to maybe 8/9 models.
13CP too which isn't bad, I can spend 1 on an extra relic and 2 on Forward Operatives and still have 10 to play with in-game. Edit: For 1CP I could put the Giant Spawn in reserves. Having a 10 Wound, ~9 Attacks, ~9 Strength creature burst out of the ground on turn 2 or 3 behind the enemies lines...
Edit: changed lords double pistols to a Combi plasma, and added 1 noise marine. Also added stubbers and a flamed to cultists. Still 60 points spare.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/31 05:03:19
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
