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 lindsay40k wrote:
2K points and you can’t afford six minimum units of Cultists, Brimstones, or Nurglings? Fewer, if you’re going with a horde or two?

Well as Alpha legion I'd generally take at least 1 big unit of 30+ cultists. So for a battallion that ends up being 50 cultists (200pts). I also have a battallion of Daemons with 3x3 Nurglings (so 162pts). Plus the 4 HQ's that requires, and assuming you actually take decent HQ's and not the cheapest options... probably hits a total of about 850pts.

Which isn't expensive, but other than the HQ's most of those models aren't going to do an awful lot.

But also, that ends up at 13CP. Which I said I could manage at most. But people are saying they get 10+ CP using the 1CP detachments... and I don't see how they're managing it. And 15+CP...

I mean maybe people are taking 3 battallions, I know I'm possibly in a minority when I say that painting 90 cultists isn't of much interest to me. I only wanted 30 at most, but its looking like I need to have a minimum of 50 in order to get the battallion.

Unless I only run 3x10 squads, and don't have an infiltrated big unit.

Which is why I asked the question. If 10 is enough, then I could run one battallion and a couple of Vanguards. If most people are running 15+, then I would have to decide if running the extra cultists is worth it.

I have the points, obviously, but I would rather spend them on say... daemon engines.

Nurglings are awesome, for objective capping early on.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Nurglings are awesome, for objective capping early on.

Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.

I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.

I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.

Niiru wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Nurglings are awesome, for objective capping early on.

Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.

I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.

I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.

My anecdote ALMOST says otherwise! I once had a Daemon Prince swing at a tank-did 2 wounds.

Nurglings swung, a min squad of three-did 2 wounds as well.

In other words, don't discount the little buggers. While they might not do MUCH damage, every bit helps. And honestly, if you can tie up a Leman Russ or something with them, they've done their job amply.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Nurglings are awesome, for objective capping early on.

Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.

I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.

I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.

My anecdote ALMOST says otherwise! I once had a Daemon Prince swing at a tank-did 2 wounds.

Nurglings swung, a min squad of three-did 2 wounds as well.

In other words, don't discount the little buggers. While they might not do MUCH damage, every bit helps. And honestly, if you can tie up a Leman Russ or something with them, they've done their job amply.

Agreed, which is why I'm taking 3 units. They'll tie up a unit (or 3), or get in the way, or maybe scratch off some wounds here and there. At the very least, they'll prevent my characters being targetted for a turn or two. If that's all they do, it's still good enough!

Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?

Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.

I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.

Dactylartha wrote:
Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?

Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.

I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.

Haha, I like the Ork Kommando conversions myself...

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/uploads//monthly_09_2012/post-10406-1348157539.jpg


Not yet sure how I'd do my stealthy nurglings though. I'd need to fine suitable-sized models to use, so probably tiny robots or something.

Edit: Ooh... I could dig out some Servo-Skulls. 3 or 4 to a base, add some tendrils...

I think it's going to be a toss up between servo-skulls in a trio (kind of like Magneton for the pokemon lovers out there), or going more of a wraith/ghost style cloaked and spectral figures. I think the skulls might work better though...

Niiru wrote:

Here's another one to add to my "which would you choose" questions:


5x Chosen, 5x Plasma Guns, Rhino = 230 points

2x Squads of 5 Renegades Marauders (2 Plasma Guns, 2 Shotguns, Chief with Plasma Pistol and Powerfist), Chimera = 252 points.


Same number of plasma shots at rapid fire range, but marauders have 1 less shots at 24" because of the pistols. But the marauders have 4 powerfist attacks too, and 4 shotguns (for whatever they're worth). Also they have some ablative wounds, where the chosen would start losing plasma guns immediately.

Seriously considering a Renegades vanguard, as I'm reading Legion and I'm seeing how using elite 'normal' human operatives is a pretty fluffy option. (Basically how people normally use Cultists for Alpha, but more so).

As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.

I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.
Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.

You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.
If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).

Stratagem wise of course the Chosen have the edge but why field them anyways when havocs can get plasma guns too and are cheaper and the leader of them can get a combi plasma anyways?
However consider that through the vanguard you now have access to other goodies, such as R&H Heavy weapons squads (6 mortars, even at the terrible BS they have, is nothing to sneeze at especcially for 48 pts.), or leman russes, or the unmovable 51 man blob made of mutants and an enforcer, Ogryin berserkers are also a decent unit if you can guarantee their arrival at your terms (Valkyries).

Niiru wrote:Well as Alpha legion I'd generally take at least 1 big unit of 30+ cultists. So for a battallion that ends up being 50 cultists (200pts). I also have a battallion of Daemons with 3x3 Nurglings (so 162pts). Plus the 4 HQ's that requires, and assuming you actually take decent HQ's and not the cheapest options... probably hits a total of about 850pts.

Which isn't expensive, but other than the HQ's most of those models aren't going to do an awful lot.

But also, that ends up at 13CP. Which I said I could manage at most. But people are saying they get 10+ CP using the 1CP detachments... and I don't see how they're managing it. And 15+CP...

I mean maybe people are taking 3 battallions, I know I'm possibly in a minority when I say that painting 90 cultists isn't of much interest to me. I only wanted 30 at most, but its looking like I need to have a minimum of 50 in order to get the battallion.

Unless I only run 3x10 squads, and don't have an infiltrated big unit.

Which is why I asked the question. If 10 is enough, then I could run one battallion and a couple of Vanguards. If most people are running 15+, then I would have to decide if running the extra cultists is worth it.

I have the points, obviously, but I would rather spend them on say... daemon engines.

I too can't be arsed painting a ton of models (that's why a get a friend to paint them cheap). I run a battalion of min units of cultists, a battalion of Khorne Daemons with some Bloodletter bombs and I run a battalion of min Berzerker units with some terminators on the side (the terminators are a whopping 300pts though, so I could probably drop them for something more usefull... But I won't); that gives me 18CP, 8 of which I spend to throw the Daemons into Deepstrike. It's a nice list, very good for board control.

Dactylartha wrote:Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?

Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.

I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.

If you really wanted to be stealthy with them, you could always use the old metal Nurgling models that have a tiny profile.

Not Online!!! wrote:


As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.

Why get rid of the plasma pistols and power fists? If they pop out 12" away from an enemy (which they would need to be) then the pistols are just extra plasma shots (otherwise they'd be shooting autoguns which are worthless). And the Power Fists mean they can charge in and actually do some damage with their multiple attacks.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but as they get fists and pistols cheaper than other armies, it seemed like a useful upgrade.

I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.

Yeh they were all going to be stalker, to match up with the Alpha Legion theme.

Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.

You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.

Because of having to fill out a vanguard, the detachment actually has a Commander and an Enforcer, both with Plasma Pistol / Power Fist, all in the same chimera. So there would be 12 Plasma shots and 8 power fist attacks coming out of it. Though I could remove the fists, but that would then mean the enemy would just charge them and then destroy them as they're pretty weak in combat without fists.

If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).

No, the transport wasn't part of the question really, it's only different because CSM only has the Rhino and Renegades only have the Chimera. Wasn't a choice either way.

MHF I'm not looking for small profile nurglings, i just want some comical posed nurglings that are about the same size. It'll be long-term project though.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.

Why get rid of the plasma pistols and power fists? If they pop out 12" away from an enemy (which they would need to be) then the pistols are just extra plasma shots (otherwise they'd be shooting autoguns which are worthless). And the Power Fists mean they can charge in and actually do some damage with their multiple attacks.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but as they get fists and pistols cheaper than other armies, it seemed like a useful upgrade.

I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.

Yeh they were all going to be stalker, to match up with the Alpha Legion theme.

Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.

You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.

Because of having to fill out a vanguard, the detachment actually has a Commander and an Enforcer, both with Plasma Pistol / Power Fist, all in the same chimera. So there would be 12 Plasma shots and 8 power fist attacks coming out of it. Though I could remove the fists, but that would then mean the enemy would just charge them and then destroy them as they're pretty weak in combat without fists.

If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).

No, the transport wasn't part of the question really, it's only different because CSM only has the Rhino and Renegades only have the Chimera. Wasn't a choice either way.

While yes power fists are cheap they are still stuck on a t3 s3 modell which is unboostable strength wise. So waisted points imo since you anyways don't want to go melee with them in order to profit from stalker.
Same goes for the plasma pistol, which is decently cheap but kinda to close for my taste.
If you get rid of both of these you could get another marauder squad barebones or with sniperrifles, which fits the theme aswell as gives you the full vanguard without the need for the barebones enforcer.
Frankly the barebones enforcer itself is a full min squad of marauders in points or even a command squad with a Heavy weapon up to a mortar and he does only one thing, keeping the rabble in line which you don't seem to intend to field.
Even worse he will shoot your marauders if they are to close which hurts since the d3 losses are then guaranteed.

Granted if you intend to field a 50 Mutant blob then ofcourse i'd reccomend him for the psychopath he is, for militia and the elites however he is not worth it.

Edit ;
If you want a melee detterent get the power Maul instead.
Also marauders are shock troops, they won't stay on the field, except the snipers, since their damage is a one time cqc thing.

Not Online!!! wrote:

While yes power fists are cheap they are still stuck on a t3 s3 modell which is unboostable strength wise. So waisted points imo since you anyways don't want to go melee with them in order to profit from stalker.
Same goes for the plasma pistol, which is decently cheap but kinda to close for my taste.

I mean true, it would only make their attacks S6, so as you say later a power maul would be a cheaper alternative. Will do the maths on that one, but I think you're right.

For plasma pistols though, I'm not sure on your thinking. The Plasma Gun guys will want to be at 12" anyway in order to rapid fire (though they do have the option of being at 24" away too, but 12" is literally twice as good). So if they're aiming to be 12" away anyway, the pistols are at their optimal range as well.

Unless you're saying Plasma Marauders should be staying at 24"?

Have actually been considering swapping a couple of the Plasmas for Meltas... but not sure.

If you get rid of both of these you could get another marauder squad barebones or with sniperrifles, which fits the theme aswell as gives you the full vanguard without the need for the barebones enforcer.
Frankly the barebones enforcer itself is a full min squad of marauders in points or even a command squad with a Heavy weapon up to a mortar and he does only one thing, keeping the rabble in line which you don't seem to intend to field.
Even worse he will shoot your marauders if they are to close which hurts since the d3 losses are then guaranteed.

I did consider the snipers, as CSM doesn't have any as standard, but I didn't think that 2x sniper shots per turn was really worth it. That's pretty much 8 shots per game, so 4 actual hits, per turn... so on average zero mortal wounds and only 0.8 dead space marines. Per game. So it seemed like a waste of a unit, when the whole unit can't even snipe a single space marine in a game, let alone actually kill a character (which they will never do).

Also the Enforcer won't kill the Marauders. The enforcer ability only comes into effect when you roll for morale, and the marauders never roll for morale as their own special rule overrides it. So the enforcer is basically just another Commander.

Granted if you intend to field a 50 Mutant blob then ofcourse i'd reccomend him for the psychopath he is, for militia and the elites however he is not worth it.

Edit ;
If you want a melee detterent get the power Maul instead.
Also marauders are shock troops, they won't stay on the field, except the snipers, since their damage is a one time cqc thing.

I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.

The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.

Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.

The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.

Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.

Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!

So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?

And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.

The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.

Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.

The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.

Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.

Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!

So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?

And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.

The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.

Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.

Small matches (500-750) they do good walking and kemp bushes with the full 10man.
If you go higher get a bawsk of anykind. (autocannon chimera makes the squad potent at anti light vehicle, flamers for when you want a discount hellhound)

Melta paratroopers are 2x 6 marauders with a plasma pistol and 2 meltas and shotguns in a valkyrie with rocket pods. They strike hard and are somewhat annoying to remove. Chimeras with something like that inside are a tad to easy to stop personally. Leading to much annoyment since a combat range of 12" is really terrible if you are stuck in your deployment Zone. Grav insertion also is really nice for when you need to get to that 6"Mark.

Sniper marauders always get their point back, for me atleast, and also do surprisingly well at finishing off that annoying charachter with his aura.

Why bother with tripple mortars when we get 6 per heavy support squad? IG field fire support, we field grand batteries, now go out there and Shell em!

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.

The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.

Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.

Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!

So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?

And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.

The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.

Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.

Small matches (500-750) they do good walking and kemp bushes with the full 10man.
If you go higher get a bawsk of anykind. (autocannon chimera makes the squad potent at anti light vehicle, flamers for when you want a discount hellhound)

Melta paratroopers are 2x 6 marauders with a plasma pistol and 2 meltas and shotguns in a valkyrie with rocket pods. They strike hard and are somewhat annoying to remove. Chimeras with something like that inside are a tad to easy to stop personally. Leading to much annoyment since a combat range of 12" is really terrible if you are stuck in your deployment Zone. Grav insertion also is really nice for when you need to get to that 6"Mark.

Sniper marauders always get their point back, for me atleast, and also do surprisingly well at finishing off that annoying charachter with his aura.

Why bother with tripple mortars when we get 6 per heavy support squad? IG field fire support, we field grand batteries, now go out there and Shell em!

I may price up a valkyrie and see...

And haha the triple mortars was a minimum for a single detachment slot, if I was going all out on mortars it would be at least 9 (3x3 for a spearhead). Not sure I'll ever actually do that though.

My main interest in renegades was to make a kind of... chaos mercenary elite strike team kind of a unit. Pretty much like the Jokers in the Legion book (though my idea for having a kill team like this happened before I started reading the book, but I'm now near the end and it's made me want one even more haha).

Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...

Edit:
Hmm, I'm sure the Valkyrie is always the better option, but part of me is wishing the Arvus Lighter was a better choice. Simply because it's a cross between a drop-pod and a shuttle.

Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...

Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....

The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.

Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...

Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....

The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.

Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?

Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.

Can't think of anything from daemons.

Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).

Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...

Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....

The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.

Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?

Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.

Can't think of anything from daemons.

Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).

Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.

Plague marines would also be an option, the Champion with a plasma gun and two of the assult 2 24" guns i never seem to remember the name off.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...

Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....

The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.

Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?

Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.

Can't think of anything from daemons.

Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).

Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.

Plague marines would also be an option, the Champion with a plasma gun and two of the assult 2 24" guns i never seem to remember the name off.

Blight Launchers. You can also give them plasma guns instead for triple-plasma.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to take a break from my 'strike force' plans ...

Daemon Princes.

So I have one with a Skullreaver Axe, because I mean... I have made a model with a big axe, and it seemed suitably scary.

Also plan to take one from CSM with Intoxicating Elixir and 2xTalons, to be my Alpharius.

Considering a second Daemons Codex one though, and I found a couple powers options that seemed interesting, so thought I'd ask some opinions.


1)
Prince of Nurgle - Corruption Sword + Talon, Fleshy Abundance. (or Miasma)
Healing D3 wounds a turn on top of 5+fnp would make for a very tanky prince. (Same with Miasma really).

2)
Prince of Slaanesh - Soulstealer Sword + Talon, Hysterical Frenzy.
Fighting twice with a Prince just seems pretty nasty. I could have him accompanied by some Warp Talons, and cast it on them instead, depending on the situation.


2b)
Same as above, but Cacophonic Choir for power, with Night Lords or Nurgle Icon Raptors. Would be for a leadership bomb style army though, so for my current list its really between 1 or 2 above. Just wanted to note this power seemed pretty cool.


Thoughts?

Thinking about getting into summoning, it's not something I've tried before. My black legion army is purely either Khorne or Slaanesh. Looking at my options it has to be Bloodletters over Daemonettes right?

I run a slaanesh prince and a Khorne ex champ alongside my bereserkers. My initial berserker charge (usually turn two/three) invariably ends with much of the berserker squad being eviscerated by the following turn but my champ and prince are normally still standing. It seems strong to then summon daemons to replenish my close combat troops and an 8" charge with the instrument isn't too long a punt.

Only having to roll a 4 on 3 dice and then an 8 on 2 dice, 10 Bloodletters and instrument at 80pts putting out 21 S5 attacks is pretty tasty to clean up whatever the berserkers left alive...?

The only thing with going for bloodletters is i can't buff them in any way whereas my prince could buff daemonettes...

Summoning, in its current form, is worthless.

You still pay the points, so no gain there, and the act of summoning itself means you are not moving (something a chaos char rarely wants to do), taking a risk to your summoner AND it might still fuzz and not get you what you want.

And the issue it-most daemons are just not different enough from each other. especially inside a given god. tzeentch being an outlier here with some daemons being pretty darn different from others.

Too many loops, for too little gain.
The only cases where its even for consideration are
1-TS summoning tzeentch daemons with thier stratagem. as said, tzeentch daemons are actually varied a bit so it might help.
2-WB undivided char, so you got stratagem backup and a wide array of options, then again-why are you playing WB? (honestly, WB are so bad its not even funny.)

Good luck trying to make Summoning work, Word Bearer here 95% given up on side of Narrative. Especially since Daemon detachments gained extra Loci, and Battalions yielded +2CP. It’s far, far better to commit to Daemons at the army list stage. Almost all situations where a summon is useful, it’s when you’ve taken pink Horrors, nobody shot at them, and you dropped like some cheeky Flamers in front of a melee-only unit just to actually use your reinforcement points

 lindsay40k wrote:
Good luck trying to make Summoning work, Word Bearer here 95% given up on side of Narrative. Especially since Daemon detachments gained extra Loci, and Battalions yielded +2CP. It’s far, far better to commit to Daemons at the army list stage. Almost all situations where a summon is useful, it’s when you’ve taken pink Horrors, nobody shot at them, and you dropped like some cheeky Flamers in front of a melee-only unit just to actually use your reinforcement points

Which is where I almost decided to use summoning (for a flamer unit), but you have to give up a turn of movement to summon something, and instead you can just spend 1CP and deepstrike those flamers whenever you want, without needing a character standing around. I can even deepstrike the flamers without having to pay the 'tax' of having a tzeentch HQ to summon them.

Summoning isn't very useful these days, outside of a few very specific situations. (Can't think of any offhand but I'm sure there are some).

Yeah. Keep an eye on Sigmar 2.0 - they’re doing some creative stuff with Summoning in that, and I’d expect 9ed or CA to roll out something similar. Right now, it’s not worth it.

Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.

 Eldarain wrote:
Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.

Is AOS points-free summoning?

I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.

If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.

Niiru wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.

Is AOS points-free summoning?

I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.

If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.

It is now yes. But the armies that make use of it have a separate mechanic dictating how much and when they can summon. Nurgle has to accrue Contagion points by occupying each deployment zone(3 each) and getting D3 per tree each turn. A unit of Nurglings is 14 points and the GUO is 24 I think so it constrains the old systems easily spammed nature.

 Eldarain wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.

Is AOS points-free summoning?

I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.

If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.

It is now yes. But the armies that make use of it have a separate mechanic dictating how much and when they can summon. Nurgle has to accrue Contagion points by occupying each deployment zone(3 each) and getting D3 per tree each turn. A unit of Nurglings is 14 points and the GUO is 24 I think so it constrains the old systems easily spammed nature.

I mean that's fine, cos it's not really points free. Or .. I mean it doesn't cost 'points', but it does cost a different form of currency which is self-limiting, and so it can be balanced via the normal points/detachment system.

So if they made it that you gained summoning points by making kills, or by holding objectives, then it means you have to earn your summons, and your opponent has the ability to interrupt or prevent you.

No spamming, leads to some new game dynamics and tactics, I think it could work for 40k too.