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Interesting. I hadn't heard how the AoS new summons worked.so thanks. I like it, but I wonder if the single way an army gets summon points also pidginholes them into a cookie cutter tactic that is predictable. I hope not, because I really hope summoning makes a return as an actual threat that's not just cheesy spamming to get boots on the ground.

Dactylartha wrote:
Interesting. I hadn't heard how the AoS new summons worked.so thanks. I like it, but I wonder if the single way an army gets summon points also pidginholes them into a cookie cutter tactic that is predictable. I hope not, because I really hope summoning makes a return as an actual threat that's not just cheesy spamming to get boots on the ground.

I think it might be OK if it's something that army should be doing anyway.

Like if it's something generic like holding objectives, that's what all armies should be doing, so it doesn't affect tactics much. Other than armies who jump onto objectives last turn I guess... But nurgle armies can grab and sit on objectives because they're tough to shift. So it wouldn't make them any more predictable than anyone else.

Lets hope they do something for chaos in chapter approved anyway, as summoning needs some work, and warp talons (and to a lesser extent raptors, and other jetpack/deepstrike units) are pretty much useless at the moment.

Unless you're Custodes of course. They can deepstrike 3" from the enemy, so no charge problems with them.

Sounds a little bit like how Khorne Daemonkin worked in 7th edition. The Blood Tithe table was perhaps the most fun thing about that army.

Okay thanks, interesting to hear about AoS. I'll see if I can find the rules somewhere. Looking forward to chapter approved, I feel there's a lot about the CSM army that needs addressed although I imagine every army player feels that way...

Abaddon303 wrote:
Thinking about getting into summoning, it's not something I've tried before. My black legion army is purely either Khorne or Slaanesh. Looking at my options it has to be Bloodletters over Daemonettes right?

I run a slaanesh prince and a Khorne ex champ alongside my bereserkers. My initial berserker charge (usually turn two/three) invariably ends with much of the berserker squad being eviscerated by the following turn but my champ and prince are normally still standing. It seems strong to then summon daemons to replenish my close combat troops and an 8" charge with the instrument isn't too long a punt.

Only having to roll a 4 on 3 dice and then an 8 on 2 dice, 10 Bloodletters and instrument at 80pts putting out 21 S5 attacks is pretty tasty to clean up whatever the berserkers left alive...?

The only thing with going for bloodletters is i can't buff them in any way whereas my prince could buff daemonettes...

Well Summoning can be done by all Chaos Charachters right?
Technically nothing is stopping you from taking a 170 pts battalion of R&H for the sweet 5CP and (ab)using the 2 charachters for summoning. I do use it sometimes as a stopgag meassure with 10 bloodletters for plugging holes in my line that melee troops can lead too, which they do decently enough but massive summoning is quite out of favour as of 8th.
If that is worth it is up to you and as was pointed out WB are quite frankly one of the worst Legion buffs you could be picking.

Whilst we’re rabbitholing away from tactics per se - Knights Armiger converted to Decimators: appropriate scale?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Whilst we’re rabbitholing away from tactics per se - Knights Armiger converted to Decimators: appropriate scale?

To big, also normal decimator looks way diffrent.

Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).

That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.

 McGibs wrote:
Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).

That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.

It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.

I do like what i see here, altough the background of decimators does not really have variants, i could see this as a prototype for them.
Nice work.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).

That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.

It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.

I do like what i see here, altough the background of decimators does not really have variants, i could see this as a prototype for them.
Nice work.

While technically this is true, I think most people would be fine with this as a decimator, as it's a suitably chaos-looking walker.

However it probably is closer to a Contemptor, which is a Helbrute, so you could decide to run it as one of those. They have a very similar statline to Armigers.

Frankly the Decimators saddens me personally, since their background is in some cases not really explored, which seem produced in one sector on a somewhat industrial scale, seem to work individually as mercenaries/ pirates etc.
We don't know who produces them albeit it seems the dark mechanicus has a hand in it. They also seem more like the footsoldiers for said producer, leading to the conclusion that there is a relative big ammount of them avilable to sell them to the highest bidder.

I kinda would like to see a Dark mechanicus branch which uses them as troop choices, then again i'd like a dark mechanicus army anyways.

Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).

12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.

My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.

I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"

But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.

And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.

I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?

Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?

weaver9 wrote:
Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).

12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.

My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.

I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"

But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.

And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.

I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?

Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?

You run double petards, the most broken weapon Chaos can field (except ofcourse psykers but those are debatable since psy is anyways really strong in 8th). Infact it seriously needs a nerf for them in my opinion. I'd personally reccomend you to switch up the loadouts. Take one with a butchercannon+ claw loadout or lazer claw loadout. Your oponnents will realize that those things aren't as broken. (infact such a loadout is barely worth the points sadly) Frankly the Decimator could use some reajustments probably.

Petards are 60pts a pop. A double Soulburner Decimator runs you 210 points, and averages 4-5 mortal wounds/turn if you factor in a re-roll aura.

They're already competitively non-viable. If anything they need the points reduced a little to make them feasible.

 Ap0k wrote:
Petards are 60pts a pop. A double Soulburner Decimator runs you 210 points, and averages 4-5 mortal wounds/turn if you factor in a re-roll aura.

They're already competitively non-viable. If anything they need the points reduced a little to make them feasible.

Which should be noted, for about the same cost, you could take 2 sorcerers which are far less vulnerable and are able to do more.

Decimators are fun, I have 2 for my DG, but they are just better dreads with all that means in this edition.

 buddha wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
Petards are 60pts a pop. A double Soulburner Decimator runs you 210 points, and averages 4-5 mortal wounds/turn if you factor in a re-roll aura.

They're already competitively non-viable. If anything they need the points reduced a little to make them feasible.

Which should be noted, for about the same cost, you could take 2 sorcerers which are far less vulnerable and are able to do more.

Decimators are fun, I have 2 for my DG, but they are just better dreads with all that means in this edition.

It's interesting how I hear they are non competitive (which I acknowledge they are, as no one uses them competitively), but then also get this visceral gut reaction from people saying they're broken/overpowered.

Is it that players at a certain level strategically are more able to deal with them?

Regarding this... I felt the same about them an avg of 6 mortal wounds a turn wasn't the most impressive. But taking 3 of them nets you an avg of 18.6 mortal wounds a turn. Which... smite spam in chaos really can't touch. Just feels like it scales better.

Downside is sorcerers can be denied and smite can fail, and has to target the closest enemy. They are safer but less reliable feeling.

Again obviously they are not competitive, otherwise we'd be seeing them more. Just trying to unwind this mystery because they are working well for me thus far.

They're mid-ranged enough that they can easily be tied up in combat by any disposable unit. That 210 point investment doesn't look so hot when a 54pt unit of Nurglings can trap it in combat and prevent it shooting every turn, with no hope of the Decimator fighting its way out without outside support.

Even ignoring the obvious close combat weakness, Double Petard Decimators average about 42pt per wound caused, which is terrible damage efficiency.

They're not particularly durable if they get focussed down, since that disables their regen, so you deal with them the same way you deal with a lot of the current high toughness invul-save-based metagame threats: A bunch of mid-strength, mid-AP, multi damage weapons.

Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.

I wasn't being literal, I know it's not ACTUALLY a hellbrute. But it's a WS/BS 3+, T7, 8W 3+ save walker, which is the standard statline of a hellbrute/dread (Yes, it's got some extra gubbins on top, like daemon saves and wound regens). The decimator is a dreadnought equivalent, or DEQ, if you will.

I think saying it is a helbrute flat out is bad wording. It's a...DEQ? Dread Equivelent?

Either way, it's closer to a Daemon Engine than a Helbrute.

That's why I said "hellbrute statline". Which it has. The only different stat is movement 10" instead of 8"
Daemon Engine can be anything. A defiler, a maulerfiend, a blood slaughterer, a plague drone, a heldrake. There's no consistent statline for a daemon engine.

ANYWAY, moving along.

Dactylartha wrote:
Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

It largely depends on what you’re facing. Against BS5+, Miasma halves your incoming shooting damage. BS4+, it’s no different. (Actually, ever so slightly inferior - they can throw a reroll at a key miss of a high damage weapon, whereas you could only reroll a single DA roll against a single wound.) Against BS3+ (and better), DA prevents more actual damage. I prefer DA as it also protects against Mortal Wounds, which on a T8 2+ unit is a concern. It also can’t be denied by ‘ignore negative modifiers to hit’ malarkies.

I prefer Miasma on an Advancing Defiler or Rhino, where the modifier compounds, and DA on something that doesn’t want to forfeit its shooting - which would certainly describe a Land Raider

I mean, almost every daemon engine (aside from big daddy LOS) is toughness 7, regens wounds, has a 5++ save and the Daemon keyword. Those are a lot of similarities.

Dactylartha wrote:
Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.

weaver9 wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.

Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.

Dactylartha wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.

Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.

I would say no. 9/10 you'll go slaanesh, and 8 cp will go quick in chaos.

Finally got to play with the 3 leviathan 3 DP army at 2k
Was against IG. The grav leviathan got popped turn 1 after killing a few guardsmen, but the two melee leviathans were able to kill 2 leman russ's each, plus a bunch of smaller things. They definitely held their own and soaked a ton of shooting

Dactylartha wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?

I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.

Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.

I’d sooner commit at the list building stage and use the reroll when the spell fails

weaver9 wrote:
Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).

12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.

My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.

I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"

But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.

And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.

I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?

Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?

Knights currently is the measuring stick if something works; as it stands, a knight will gut multiple decimators a turn, especially if they have the house that outflanks. Yes, they are good, but not competitive compared to butcher contemptors, levithans, and other options. Plus the variable shots really limits them.

Of course this is all objective, if your club cant handle decimators, dunno what to tell em lol

Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.