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You can do that, no problem. Dont know why you would want to but you can do that.

 orangebrushminiatures wrote:
anything stopping us from warptiming say for example a unit of 40 cultists who infiltrated? 9" free move, 6" move, further 6" w/warptime?

The obvious counter to alpha legion infiltrate now is to just sit as far back as you can from them to prevent them wrapping you up, but if you also have oblits/bloodletter bombs they will be forced to screen which is what your infiltrators want.

Nothing stopping that, provided you have a sorcerer close enough to cast WT on them (without fail/denial) on your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
So if everything counts as in cover for 2cp that makes predators 2++ sitting in the open? I like those apples a lot!

As for charging, looks like your right Dactylartha. Charging has to be straight on, or ground path to target as it were. :(

The strat says they get the benefit of cover - does that count for units that normally would have to be ON cover AND 50% obscured? (at work, don't have my codex handy).

Azuza001 wrote:
You can do that, no problem. Dont know why you would want to but you can do that.

To get further and tie up the opponent no?

I don't disagree, i just would not use cultists that way myself, thats all i ment.

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
15 bare-bones raptors = 255 pts. With icon and 3 special gear dudes ~300 pts, only a little cheaper than possessed, but a lot more maneuverable.

Seems like a fun trick that I'm not going to buy and paint 2 more boxes of raptors to try out (before it gets FAQd out anyway). Probably not anyway. If I had the models I'd probably go with it.

I don't see why they'd FAQ it out now, every fly unit in the game has been able to do this for over a year now and they haven't done anything about it yet.

And it's in no way overpowered... it's literally the whole point of having a <FLY> character (being able to jump over enemies/obstacles)

So this is quite hilarious - FLY units can't charge over models anymore. Only moving in the movement phase:

Page 177
– Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.’

Or am I missing something like when you charge, HI, you move as if it's movement phase?

So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.

Hey uh, if there is any good news in this faq for someone who plays mostly with an elite khorne army... I would really love it if you pointed it out.... because yea. Skullreaver DP just got a lot harder to play.

Any ideas on how to make renegades and heretics playable?

Dactylartha wrote:
So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.

Don’t forget that your pile in moves can go in lateral directions.


It’s not great, but it’s there.

I’ll further add my support to the takes that no more head stomps, dragon punches, or overhead leaps - along with an apparently still unresolved grey area on whether you measure the diagonal displacement when you FLY - makes Warp Talons plunge to greater depths of unviable gimmickry :(

 lindsay40k wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.

Don’t forget that your pile in moves can go in lateral directions.

Spoiler:

T = an inch of a single solid tank model
- = half an inch or so of open space
P = possessed

Charge

T
T
T
T
T
T - - P
- - P P
PPP

Pile in

T
T
T - P
T - P
T - P
T - P
PP

Consolidate

P
TP
T
TP
T
TP
TP
P

It’s not great, but it’s there.

I’ll further add my support to the takes that no more head stomps, dragon punches, or overhead leaps - along with an apparently still unresolved grey area on whether you measure the diagonal displacement when you FLY - makes Warp Talons plunge to greater depths of unviable gimmickry :(

Your illustration shows the only thing assault armies really have going for them; the so called "wrap tricks", whereby you completely wrap an enemy model or unit and thus prevent it from falling back (and also prevent your opponent from shooting your unit). It is great, and a unit of infiltrating AL Cultists can still pull it off, at least if you can get Warptime off on them.

I will agree, that the changes to FLY units just bone things like Heldrakes, Raptors, Warp Talons, etc. even harder than they were before. Heldrakes were already on the edge of being bad, now they are garbage. Someone mentioned Skullreaver Princes; they just became mostly unviable as well, as your opponent will just screen them out.

Neat graphic, it's fun to see the pile in illustrated like my old DOS games. It certainly might be possible with some free space around the tank and a good charge roll.

I don't know what Khorne daemons can do to clear chaffe for a prince to land next to a titan. Overwhelming number of attacks, maybe? Ally with Tzeentch psyker to try to treason away the screen? (Would love to see that done lol).

I see on other threads the charge distance seems to be ruled as measured diagonally, but i don't know how if they don't say it explicitly.

Hmmm, with the new FAQ and the new strategem that gives +1 cover save to the one going second, Infantry like marines and CSM got a boost. I wonder if CSM marines will come back.

I mean, a cult troop marine with a 2+ save is pretty durable, and if you want to waste a lascannon shooting at it, be my guest. Lets take a whole line of 20 berserkers running up the board. Even if they start second you are shooting at marines with 2+ save. Ordinary fire simply won't do much to them.

Compared to cultists which are gonna die in droves (even with this new strategem). There is a huge difference between a 3+ armor save vs a 2+ armor save. And stuff like Berserkers are more likely to start out in the open anyway, because they want to run up the board. Even if they are embarked in Rhinos, the said Rhinos are now 2+ save, which is pretty nifty.

On the other hand, the FAQ made Chaos gunline armies a lot stronger. Go second and get extra protection for your long-range weapons. You won't have to worry much about close combat until turn 3.

If you take a lot of lascannons, Prepared Positions is actually a force multiplier. You have an advantage trading shots at range. While it's not a huge advantage, it could certainly keep an important unit on the table an extra turn to get in it's shots.

Something I noticed about the changes to Forward Operatives: it only applies to matched play games. If you're not playing matched play, Alpha Legion can still infiltrate.

Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)

Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.

Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)

Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.

Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.

Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world

Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(

Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.

And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.

So MEQs, vehicles, and medium to high AP guns are the main things of ours to *benefit* from this FAQ. Anything else better off than it was a week ago? *Any* good news for Daemon armies?

 lindsay40k wrote:
So MEQs, vehicles, and medium to high AP guns are the main things of ours to *benefit* from this FAQ. Anything else better off than it was a week ago? *Any* good news for Daemon armies?

We have MEQ snf vehicles. So, yes?

The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.

Dactylartha wrote:
Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(

Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.

And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.

I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.

My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.

Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.

That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.

2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(

Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.

And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.

I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.

My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.

Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.

That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.

2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.

I like the way your thinking. Also there is nothing saying you have to use that 9" move to move forwards. You can use it to reposition havocs into better los without giving up their first turn move, or to shift a flank to the center making your opponents deployment less effective. Its different from before yes, but still has uses that can be found.

 Zid wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)

Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.

Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.

Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world

Thunderwolf lords are even less mobile. They can't even jump onto a crate to get things. They also cost much more and hit softer. Don't expect to see less smash captains. He took a slight hit along with everything else. The CP "nerf" is a joke too, that NOVA list literally never even needed all it's CP's, it finished some games with more I heard. All that army needs is 1-2 turns powered up to table or at least cripple the other guy, which it still easily does. While the Smash captain has less reach in assault, it's a double edged sword because he was only there for the mirror match really, now the screen on that Castellan blocks everything, and nothing gets near it until turn 2 earliest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.

Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.

Can't do forward operatives with a tank, sadly.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.

Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.

It was called cheat-filtrate? When? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've been on these forums + 1d4chan + bolter&chain for months reading everything that came up about Alpha Legion tactics and games, and never saw this term once before.

Also you can't infiltrate tanks.

So all you get is a 9" boost. Which is... ok. But if you go second, you're in no-mans-land getting totally wiped out, because instead of being able to infiltrate into a defendable location, you have to run at the enemy if you want any hope of getting into combat before turn 3.

It's a straight nerf, into the ground. You're now better off just taking rhinos, and if you're doing that then there's no point being Alpha Legion (or ravenguard) anymore. Unless you're just taking a turtled-up gunline in a corner of the map, but then if you're doing that then you weren't infiltrating anything anyway.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(

Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.

And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.

I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.

My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.

Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.

That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.

2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.

Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?

How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?

On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.

Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?

It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(

Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.

And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.

I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.

My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.

Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.

That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.

2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.

Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?

How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?

On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.

Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?

It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.

Heldrakes still don't kill enough for their points, between their baleflamer and melee. Mind, the reason they have piss poor damage is because of the rest of its kit and stats, but I guarentee it's a FANTASTIC distraction now. They won't see how badly it actually damages, they only see it zooming up hard.

Speaking of Iron Warriors and their ignore morale WT - is it even remotely viable to throw 20-man units of regular CSM into list? Say, 40 cultists (for screen and Tide), 2x20 CSM and oblitriples for 1500 points list?

Fearless is great but bolters still blow.

I know my drake is overcosted but i love him. He is always a first turn charge into armor or another shooter and gives me my d6 flamer shots against parked devastators with las, while only needing to be 48" away from the closest model. Then he becomes the closest model for shooting in case my prince moved up past my front line. He's also one of my best painted models, and it's hilarious i don't know why but he always draws so much fear from the other guy. "Oh snap a heldrake shoot it shoot it!" And takes fire away from my transports or weapon platforms.

One game vs my unfortunate DG friend tanked 1750 points of fire after tying up his rhino and only took a couple wounds, though he was using my wife's dice that he rolled a LOT of 1's on, statistically improbable amounts of 1's.

Fluke game but I still like my drake, headcannon as my prince's familiar.

Going Warmaster with Heretac hordes will only be good if we gain access to solid unit buffs. If Plague Marines were a bit cheaper, DG might be able to pull it off (though Vitality won’t actually increase their endurance against S4 small arms, or plasma, and they’re a bit slow). BL have a Stratagem that buffs Heretacs, but if you’re doing a BL horde you’re taking Abaddon and he gives them the exact same bonus anyway. So, the unit-wide buffs IW get are from Lords & Princes (which probably want to be affecting stuff more effective, and not having their own melee capability tied to a slow horde), DAs & ECs (which affect melee only, so Berzerkers would do much better), and the deity spells (which generally have more important things to buff than MEQs).

If Diabolical Strength affected a unit, as is often mistaken to be the case, there might be a case. But even then, we return to ‘Berzerkers do it better’.

It’s a shame. In early 8ed, I took a Heretac horde as it was a fluff match for my Word Bearers, and it was actually really effective in the 35-50PL games I got in after work. Just Warptimed them forwards, Advancing and popping off three meltas, with a mass of chainswords ready to reroll their hits next turn. Then, the metagame adapted, and that was the end of that, swarms of Cultists all the way.

 Vexler wrote:
Speaking of Iron Warriors and their ignore morale WT - is it even remotely viable to throw 20-man units of regular CSM into list? Say, 40 cultists (for screen and Tide), 2x20 CSM and oblitriples for 1500 points list?

You're better off with Cultists. It's less effective than with Abigail, but a Lord conferring Fearless to a bunch of reroll 1 ignore cover Cultists isn't terrible.