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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Bird of prey wrote:
Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...

As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.

Whoa whoa wait. So if I want to go full Khorne I can take for example:

Batallion:

Exalted Champion (mark of khorne)
Skarbrand (daemon of Khorne)

Bezerkers
Bloodletters
Cultists (mark of khorne)

Is that what we're saying here? If so a whole new world has been opened to ne.

Don't quote me but you don't get any stratagems if you field them in one detachment.

weaver9 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Bird of prey wrote:
Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...

As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.

Whoa whoa wait. So if I want to go full Khorne I can take for example:

Batallion:

Exalted Champion (mark of khorne)
Skarbrand (daemon of Khorne)

Bezerkers
Bloodletters
Cultists (mark of khorne)

Is that what we're saying here? If so a whole new world has been opened to ne.

yes and you lost all stratagems and loci or special rules

You can unlock strats with a patrol detachment though.

Oh well, that certainly has become horrible very quickly.

Although I suppose maybe useful in a supreme command detachment.

Battalion of World Eaters
Battalion of Khorne Daemons
Supreme Command mixed between khorne keyword units.

Don't think that offers very much, but maybe.

weaver9 wrote:
Oh well, that certainly has become horrible very quickly.

Although I suppose maybe useful in a supreme command detachment.

Battalion of World Eaters
Battalion of Khorne Daemons
Supreme Command mixed between khorne keyword units.

Don't think that offers very much, but maybe.

Well depending on what stratagems you want, you can always unlock stratagems with a simple outrider or vanguard detachment (for example, a herald and 3x Screamers would be a cheap detachment), and then have a battallion of a mixture of all sorts of daemons and CSM units. It's not something that will always be ideal, as you lose out on legion traits for that detachment, but for some options it might work out saving points on HQ taxes for split detachments etc.

The main use of a monotheist soup Detachment is getting an extra CP when you’re doing a mono list with a DEITY Daemons Detachment and a DEITY Heretic Astartes Detachment, with a character and three units of the same role who don’t need their Locus or Legion trait to do their job.

My Sorcerer on Steed, Dreadclaw, and Spawn don’t care about my Legion trait, and my Seekers can’t themselves get a Locus, so putting them all in a SLAANESH Outriders alongside a DAEMONS Vanguard and WORD BEARERS Battalion gets a cheeky CP for no opportunity cost.

I think the main reason to do it is if you have some smashy character models that you want to put in the same list and you don't really care if they don't get their legion trait. Something like putting Magnus in a supreme command with some Tzeentch Daemon HQ's because they all share <Tzeentch>.

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.

Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.

The key difference is that the only way <REGIMENT> and <CHAPTER> match, is if you make up one of your own (that you can for fluff reasons, but you are intended to select one of the options presented)-and as such the rules tells you that you can't do it as they are not intended to be the same.

With <MARK OF CHAOS> and <ALLEGIANCE> though, you can't make up your own, you are given a very specific list that DOES match up.
And yes, the DG and TS books double down on it with units that have fixed <Tzeentch> or <Nurgle> without having any way to tell if its either one, in case the two were not supposed to be the same-further pointing to the fact that the two indeed match up.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.

Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.

The key difference is that the only way <REGIMENT> and <CHAPTER> match, is if you make up one of your own (that you can for fluff reasons, but you are intended to select one of the options presented)-and as such the rules tells you that you can't do it as they are not intended to be the same.

With <MARK OF CHAOS> and <ALLEGIANCE> though, you can't make up your own, you are given a very specific list that DOES match up.
And yes, the DG and TS books double down on it with units that have fixed <Tzeentch> or <Nurgle> without having any way to tell if its either one, in case the two were not supposed to be the same-further pointing to the fact that the two indeed match up.

This debate has been going on for a long time.

I know GW hasn't said anything about it, but I'm wondering if a TO has. Are any examples from tournaments of a mixed CSM / Daemons detachment using a keyword from a specific Chaos God, like from ITC or something?

On the note of unorthodox targets for Diabolic Strength: Blightlord with flail

That’s 3D3 Power Fist attacks that hit on 3’s and have overflowing damage

Make them against Imperium and average rolls exceed a World Eaters Berzerker Champ with Power Fist

Of course, delivery might be tricky, with such a slug of a unit. Buuuut you’re using a DH caster, so Warptime’s on the cards...

 lindsay40k wrote:
On the note of unorthodox targets for Diabolic Strength: Blightlord with flail

That’s 3D3 Power Fist attacks that hit on 3’s and have overflowing damage

Make them against Imperium and average rolls exceed a World Eaters Berzerker Champ with Power Fist

Of course, delivery might be tricky, with such a slug of a unit. Buuuut you’re using a DH caster, so Warptime’s on the cards...

The difference against him and a Zerker champ is that the Zerker champ is only about 28 points by himself. If you add the minimum 4 other zerkers that he has to go with, his damage output as a unit (which AT LEAST adds 6x4 chainsword attacks) outscales the Blightlord.

Tried a sort of anti castellan list and it worked out alot better than I expected. But opponent wasn't expecting it.

It had :

Abbadon
Jump pack sorceror with wraptime and death hex

3 units of 8 Havocs, 4 lascannons each unit.
3 units of 10 CSM, 2 lascannons and champion combi bolter each unit,

2 units of single Chaos Spawn

1 Auxilliary support detachment of 20 bloodletter with banner, etc.

I was playing against an IG brigade (for mass cp), with blood angels batallion of smash captain, Melfieston, and a IK house Raven Castellan with Cawl's wath and bulkwark for the 4++, upgradable to 3+++

Basically, he didn't expect a certain combo. I got first turn, my sorceror was deployed really far forward. 1st turn, he jump packed move advanced 16 inches, then he warptimed himself for another 12 inches. After that he was within 12 inch range of the enemy castellan. Cast death hex successfully, failed ot deny. So, the invulnerable on his Castellan went poof.

After that, the massed lascannons took the Castellan down to 1 wound. A few lascannons were out of range, and these took out two of his sentinels and one of his heavy support lascannon teams.

On his turn, he used a ton of cps, got his castellan to top tier, activated order of campanions and fired everything at one of my havocs squad. He also fired his siege missile at my Abaddon, but only took two wounds off (cos of Abaddon's special rule). He killed just 5 Havocs with his full salvo, which means that I still had 3 lascannons intact in that squad plus Abaddon made sure it didnt run. His mephiston and flying smash captain charged into my army first turn and killed some CSM, but zero lascannons. He also killed my sorceror (expected).

2nd turn, my massed lascannons finished off his Castellan, his mephiston and his smash captain and that was more of less it. (I forgot about my blood letter bomb and it didn't even need to come in before we called it).

This all infantry list negates one of the Castellan's biggest advantages. There are zero vehicles or titanic units for it to kill with its volcano lance. And there are alot of abalative wounds to get through before you finally reach the lascannon guys. It also has 18 lascannon shots, and with Cacophony, it can have 22 shots per turn. Plus the flying sorceror combo to remove invul shields.

Even if it goes second, it can deploy defensive prepared positions for army wide +1 cover. Now, I know I was lucky enough to get the sorceror's warp time and death hex off and his castellan was in range. But even trading heavy shots, this army has a better chance than other shooty CSM armies I can think of going up against a Castellan. It has some disadvantages of course. Its very stationary other than the blood letter bomb. But it can dish out a lot of hurt.

Just sharing.

Love how Abaddon just takes a siege missile to the face like that. Seems like that game was over the moment you got off that death hex. That's certainly one way to ruin a Castellan player's day. Thanks for sharing.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Tried a sort of anti castellan list and it worked out alot better than I expected. But opponent wasn't expecting it.

It had :

Abbadon
Jump pack sorceror with wraptime and death hex

3 units of 8 Havocs, 4 lascannons each unit.
3 units of 10 CSM, 2 lascannons and champion combi bolter each unit,

2 units of single Chaos Spawn

1 Auxilliary support detachment of 20 bloodletter with banner, etc.

Just curious to why exactly you're running 8 man havoc squads and single units of Spawn; you could use those points to get a 25 strong Bloodletter bomb (prevents loss of WS2+ on the charge), get 2 more units of min Bloodletters (shield your Havocs against a CQC army) and get a Herald and DP (buffs your letters, adds another Titan killing unit and gives your bomb charge re-rolls).

Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.

And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.

Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.

And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.

Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.

How are the bloodletters a bomb if you can't deep strike them?

Is there a reason such a large contingent of the gaming population is omitting the first R in the word berzerkers? Like a regional dialect, or something?

LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.


Question: Does it work for TS DPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TS DPs?
Question 2: Can TS tzeentch daemon use this to give reroll?

I think the lascannon havocs can in some ways be anticipated to be more guarenteed in terms of being able to actually hit the castellan, the bloodletters have to get to the havoc which can be bubblewrapped in most comp lists routinely.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.

And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.

Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.

The extra Bloodletters weren't a suggestion to make your army more melee centric, more of a way to prevent armies with their own deepstrike from immediately tagging all of your havocs and ending the game.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.


Question: Does it work for TS DPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TS DPs?
Question 2: Can TS tzeentch daemon use this to give reroll?

I believe you must target a tzentch daemon codex character as the stratagem target, but afterwards the given aura would apply to 1ks princes.

^ second @Dactylartha’s reading

I am planning to add a 1KS detachment of DP, Ahriman & generic guy on Discs, and a Tzaangor shaman to my army and have them zoom around with a Herald on Disc or Chariot getting loads of rerolls

Bear in mind it’s an all-or-nothing reroll like the Khorne Daemon Locus that doesn’t allow you to redo the lower roll of a 1-5 or 2-4 split, so budgeting a CRR for a key Death Hex will still be likely useful. And a large number of attempts to cast spells is desirable to maximise the chances of actually getting use out of the strat. Otherwise it’d be like popping Daemonforge on a LoS that’s already got DP & EC coverage

What rule specifies that the target must be exclusively from the Daemons codex? Doesn't TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER mean any character in 40k with those faction keywords?

EDIT: Oh nevermind, looks like it was FAQ'd.

barboggo wrote:
What rule specifies that the target must be exclusively from the Daemons codex? Doesn't TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER mean any character in 40k with those faction keywords?

There's a FAQ that explicitly states when a Chaos Daemon stratagem targets a DAEMON it must be a Faction DAEMON. I think it's in the CD FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, that's only for Daemon targeting stratagem. The CD codex stratagem that target CHAOS CHARACTER can be used on CSM, R&H, or a sweet Chaos Knight that's been made a CHARACTER. Provided you have a Battle Forged CD detachment to unlock CD stratagems in the first place.

That certainly wasn't a very well thought out way to word that stratagem. When RAW spells out something totally different from RAI.

Oh wait, I remember now, that's also the same FAQ entry that stops us from deep striking/warp surging daemon primarchs. Man, you'd think that the designers would have a spreadsheet that lets them automatically filter out every unit in the 40k catalog by keywords/faction keywords when they're writing these rules. That should have been an easy one to get right.

I'm definitely a little bummed that the daemons codex seems to be one of the less functional books of the releases this year.

I'm not much of a RAI guy, i defer to RAW 95% of the time, but here's a great example of that 5% assumed RAI:

RAW, you can Tide of Traitors your opponent's cultists.

But then again who's to say what's intended? Maybe GW wanted cultists to betray their general, with the aptly named stratagem, for another CSM general's commands?

Haven't heard that one before, that's hilarious. I may try pulling that in a casual game some time just to see my opponent's reaction. Do it on someone who's REALLY uptight about RAW

barboggo wrote:
Haven't heard that one before, that's hilarious. I may try pulling that in a casual game some time just to see my opponent's reaction. Do it on someone who's REALLY uptight about RAW

Ayy the best part is, that it does not specify under which controll it is. Basically it states atleast in the german version, that you Chose a unit of Cultists and then bring it in from a flank but atleast 9" away.
There is no limit on which cultists you bring back and that leaves room for Intepretation under which controll they stand afterwards.
This be Hillarious, sadly it does not work on R&H since their cultists are called Renegade Cultists.
Still the moment when you steal someones 40 man block after he just tried to outflank you would be hillarious.

It does state that you use it at the end of your movement phase and more than 9” from ENEMY. But yes, it does not specify friendly cultists.

So you could use this to almost kill a unit for your enemy.
Have a unit close to the corner of the table so right in the corner one model can be placed but not more than one and that one model is more than 9” away you just simply killed 39 cultist thanks to “can’t be placed more then 9” away”...
Shoot the last cultist and gain VP.