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Cost Melta as the same as plasma, increasing plasma cost will be a mistake.

Then for the same points you can tool for the requirement at hand.

short range, high damage output but can swing wildly between 1-6

or

double shots at same range, single shot at double range and has more reliable output but at potential risk.

Melta at short range has a 1/36 chance of doing one damage if it wounds; a 3/36 chance of doing 2 damage. That's 32/36 chance of doing 3+ damage. Which sounds a bit more reliable than the simple 1-6 damage.

So it's pretty much a 3-6 damage weapon when close. The problem is always getting it close. But if it was cheaper I'd definitely look at putting some on my bikes or even a cheeky combimelta on a rhino. Not that I'm playing competitive mind you; might be different at a tourney.

Melta should've done atleast 2d3 dmg

the.cobb wrote:
Melta at short range has a 1/36 chance of doing one damage if it wounds; a 3/36 chance of doing 2 damage. That's 32/36 chance of doing 3+ damage. Which sounds a bit more reliable than the simple 1-6 damage.

So it's pretty much a 3-6 damage weapon when close. The problem is always getting it close. But if it was cheaper I'd definitely look at putting some on my bikes or even a cheeky combimelta on a rhino. Not that I'm playing competitive mind you; might be different at a tourney.

Just looking at points costs for what the models I've bought already have. And I've got a terminator squad with combi meltas. I think deepstriking next to something precious to the opponent, that could be pretty nasty. You'd want meltas against armour, plasma against troops I guess?

Also, heavy flamers are rubbish.

Do you guys know the maximum amount of cultists I can lose in a 40 man blob before I have to use the autopass morale strategem? I can't seem to figure out the maths.

 RobS wrote:


Just looking at points costs for what the models I've bought already have. And I've got a terminator squad with combi meltas. I think deepstriking next to something precious to the opponent, that could be pretty nasty. You'd want meltas against armour, plasma against troops I guess?

Also, heavy flamers are rubbish.

I used to absolutely *love* termicide squads through 5th and 6th edition. Back then it had several advantages. 1) Temrinaters were cheaper at around 33 points per model, 2) Combi Meltas were single shot and only 5 points, 3) Temrinator Minimum Squad size was 3 models. 4) There wasn't a 9 inch restriction on deep striking. So you could drop into melta range (you could also mishap or fail to come on, but whatever).

These days basically everything has changed. Back in the old days, you had a dirty cheap throwaway anti tank unit that would drop in, melta something's face off, then do whatever until they died. They performed pretty well for just north of 100 points for a squad of 3. Now though... Terminators lost their ability to be a throw away unit. Between the point increase associated with the second wound, and the increasing of the minimum squad cap, and the increase in wargear prices on the combi melta especially... the minimum price for a squad of melta terminators is now easily north of 250 points. Also while you don't need to worry about your reserve rolls being poor, and you don't need to worry about a mishap potentially killing your squad, you also cannot drop those melta guns into optimal range anymore. You also didn't really care if your terminators mishapped in earlier editions. It sucked sure, but it was only 105 points at the end of the day.

For a little while in 8th I ran my Raptors with Meltas. 2 Melta Guns and a Combi Melta. And tried to use em like I used to use termicide. It didn't really work that well for me. Dropping 9 inches away is a big issue with Melta Guns, as they really want to be within 6 to guarentee vehicle kills and to be worth it over other options. I ended up switching my Raptors over to Plas and haven't looked back. Unlike Melta, Plasma can drop into their ideal range, as they rapid fire out to 12. I still use Melta on my bikers. But they can use their good movement, and warp time to get their melta guns within 6 inches. Raptors haven't been closing the gap effectively for me.

Honestly, I'm not sure the best way to run Terminators. I've never seen anybody actually field Chaos Terminators, Scarab Occult Terminators, or Loyalist Terminators and not felt disappointed at their performance. Hopefully we can get an update on Terminators. I for one would love to see them go back to their 5th edition "glory" days as a cheap disposable anti tank drop that your opponent couldn't ignore.

Darksteve wrote:

 akaean wrote:
Every one is hoping that Meltas and Combi Meltas get a big points reduction and Plasma and its equivalents get a price hike.

Even just swapping Plasma and Melta Costs would do a lot to make the game a bit more balanced. If something like that happens it would likely be in Chapter Approved.

I get that melta needs to come down, but i think plasma is fine where it is for the most part.

Exactly. It's only a few platforms where it's an issue.

Question: anyone playing Triple Decimators with Twin Soulburner Petards? How have they been working out for you?

Drukarii are big in my local meta right now and I've been working on ways to deal with them. Seems like I always get into a short-range firefight and they've always got some negative to-hit modifier making it hard to blast them.

So I'm thinking about units that auto-hit, but I'm concerned about other downsides. Are they really that much of an improvement over a contemptor?

Double Soulburner Deci averages 7 shots, of which 3.75 hit (4+ BS), of which 3.11 go through after FNP, for 210pts.

Double Butcher Deci does 2.96 damage after going through hits/wounds/saves/FNP, for 150.

Soulburner Deci costs 67.5pts per wound caused, while Butcher Deci costs 50.6pts per wound caused.

Soulburners aren't even close to efficient. Furthermore, popping DaemonForge does a *lot* more for a Butcher Deci than it does for a Soulburner Deci.

 Ap0k wrote:
Double Soulburner Deci averages 7 shots, of which 3.75 hit (4+ BS), of which 3.11 go through after FNP, for 210pts.

Double Butcher Deci does 2.96 damage after going through hits/wounds/saves/FNP, for 150.

Soulburner Deci costs 67.5pts per wound caused, while Butcher Deci costs 50.6pts per wound caused.

Soulburners aren't even close to efficient. Furthermore, popping DaemonForge does a *lot* more for a Butcher Deci than it does for a Soulburner Deci.

Not to mention that the petard has a nasty tendency of selfharm....

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: anyone playing Triple Decimators with Twin Soulburner Petards? How have they been working out for you?

Drukarii are big in my local meta right now and I've been working on ways to deal with them. Seems like I always get into a short-range firefight and they've always got some negative to-hit modifier making it hard to blast them.

So I'm thinking about units that auto-hit, but I'm concerned about other downsides. Are they really that much of an improvement over a contemptor?

Have you considered Contemptor Dreads? Probably less efficient but mine sure stands up to anything (except a tessaract ark).

 orangebrushminiatures wrote:
Do you guys know the maximum amount of cultists I can lose in a 40 man blob before I have to use the autopass morale strategem? I can't seem to figure out the maths.

22 casualties should leave 2 cultist after morale.

Have you considered Contemptor Dreads? Probably less efficient but mine sure stands up to anything (except a tessaract ark).

One volley from 3x Triple Dissie Ravagers and you have a 165+pt hole in your army.

And they will get the jump on it, because they match range but move faster.

Honestly, Dark Eldar is just a fething gak matchup for CSM. Oblits suicide drop to their doom, so if you roll badly for damage on the drop you just threw 600ish points away. Good luck getting Cacophony off through Agents of Vect, since it's about the one thing he needs to save CP for given said 600+ pt investment. We have no mobile long range weapon platforms with which to force positioning mistakes. Anything power armour is useless vs Dissies. Anything vehicle-based is largely useless vs Advance+Charge bikers or weight of fire Dissies/Blasters. Our melee options have to one-shot their targets on the charge, otherwise they just fall back and shoot the crap out of it (since almost everything of importance flies, or is embarked on something that flies).

The only thing that I found remotely successful (and by that I mean, afforded me a non-zero chance of winning) was a detachment including a TSons Fire Raptor backed up by Glamour/Weaver of Fates/Prescience, inside a re-roll aura that could keep up (Ahriman), and even then, the entire game rested on it performing well, and my (nurgle daemon) ground troops surviving long enough to simply outlast their nonsense 6 faction rules in 1.

 Ap0k wrote:

Have you considered Contemptor Dreads? Probably less efficient but mine sure stands up to anything (except a tessaract ark).

One volley from 3x Triple Dissie Ravagers and you have a 165+pt hole in your army.

And they will get the jump on it, because they match range but move faster.

Honestly, Dark Eldar is just a fething gak matchup for CSM. Oblits suicide drop to their doom, so if you roll badly for damage on the drop you just threw 600ish points away. Good luck getting Cacophony off through Agents of Vect, since it's about the one thing he needs to save CP for given said 600+ pt investment. We have no mobile long range weapon platforms with which to force positioning mistakes. Anything power armour is useless vs Dissies. Anything vehicle-based is largely useless vs Advance+Charge bikers or weight of fire Dissies/Blasters. Our melee options have to one-shot their targets on the charge, otherwise they just fall back and shoot the crap out of it (since almost everything of importance flies, or is embarked on something that flies).

The only thing that I found remotely successful (and by that I mean, afforded me a non-zero chance of winning) was a detachment including a TSons Fire Raptor backed up by Glamour/Weaver of Fates/Prescience, inside a re-roll aura that could keep up (Ahriman), and even then, the entire game rested on it performing well, and my (nurgle daemon) ground troops surviving long enough to simply outlast their nonsense 6 faction rules in 1.

I don't know if it's that bad. Talos and Ravager units tend to shred my infantry and there's always something there to blow away my tanks.

I'm just looking for mid-ranged killy units that can take a beating on the way up the board. The Butcher cannons are a good recommendation and something I will definitely think about.

Renegade Armigers sound like they could fill that function, if you're not adverse to them not strictly not being CSM.

Second the Helverins suggestion. They're pretty much the perfect weapon against DE. Outranging his threats gives you back some of the initiative rather than letting them decide when and where to fight all the time.

And their Autocannons doing three damage will work wonders as well.

If I were going triple decimators with soul burning I'd use black Legion and abaddon for full rerolling hits.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
Double Soulburner Deci averages 7 shots, of which 3.75 hit (4+ BS), of which 3.11 go through after FNP, for 210pts.

Double Butcher Deci does 2.96 damage after going through hits/wounds/saves/FNP, for 150.

Soulburner Deci costs 67.5pts per wound caused, while Butcher Deci costs 50.6pts per wound caused.

Soulburners aren't even close to efficient. Furthermore, popping DaemonForge does a *lot* more for a Butcher Deci than it does for a Soulburner Deci.

Not to mention that the petard has a nasty tendency of selfharm....

Okay, I’m going to present some further points that come to mind:

- Math check: Soulburner averages 4 shots, so dualies means 8 shots, 4 hits when hitting on 4+, of which 3.33 go through FNP 6+, for 63 PPW
- Soulburners are Assault, Butcher is Heavy. If you’re firing on the hoof, Butcher goes up to... huh. 63 PPW. Cool EDIT: wait, we’re already down to BS4+ in this scenario before we deduct moving hit penalty, so actually we’re going up to like 75 PPW
- - If it needs to move to get soulburners into range, then the Butcher would have been in range. BUT you might want to use it as a mobile unit, stomping forwards with some Cultists or whatever and punching out tough things that think about tarpitting them.
- - Given the cap on how much Soulburners can backfire, sometimes it might be a good call to advance and shoot.
- Against DE, Butcher will marginally increase its WPP through more morale losses. Scaring away that last one with the big gun is pretty useful on a medium walker
- I assume that dual Soulburners can each inflict a single MW on the user in the same phase? I can see a TFG trying to blag otherwise, but this is marginal
- perhaps most importantly: are those Butcher states bearing in mind that most of the Butcher’s killing shots will overkill? PPW efficiency gets distorted when medium to high Damage hits are allocated to 1W models

Why would you be shooting 1W models when there is an abundance of multiwound Venoms/Ravagers/Raiders/Taloi/Grotesques/Razorwings to shoot at?

Killing Dark Eldar infantry is almost never the problem. Almost any list you make will have enough incidental firepower to deal with the paltry amount of DE bodies on the table. It's cracking the transports in a timely fashion to get at the gooey interior, or dealing with the Ravagers before they rip you a new arsehole.

Good catch on the number of shots from Soulburners though. Brainfart on my part for forgetting the way d3's rounded.

Honestly, even at 50ppw, thats not a great return (Oblits sit somewhere <40 iirc, and that can be further enhanced with Cacophony/re-rolls/Prescience/VotLW), but it's a bit easier to stomach when you can do it from 36" away and mitigate a portion of the risk.

At 24" away you're pretty much in range for it to be a suicide mission, since there's unlikely to be any weapon in his army that can't shoot at it if it wants, and I've seen first hand how fast Deci's (and Contemptors) drop to a volley of Dissies with Black Heart re-rolls. You don't want to be that close. You don't even want to be at 36", but short of Helverins, CSM don't really have many >36" threats that are mobile enough to either avoid being tarpitted with bikes and/or keep range on vehicles that can move 14" minimum (not including advance).

Oblits are range 24”.

You might’ve been talking about the Contemptor, but it sounded like you meant Oblits.

Ah, bad phrasing on my part then.

I was talking about Butcher Cannons.

Oblits 24" range is part of the reason its often a one-way trip for them.

Soulburner Decimators in Dreadclaws? Drop them x3 turn 2 with Cultists and other mobs to make sure the table isn't taken over by the enemy? Getting the drop could clear a flank, making the rest of them too far away to do the close up killing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe Nurglings, or even a bunch of Tzeentch daemons to clog the table. Tzeentchy invuls are 4++ so maybe horrors can withstand probably more than twice the shots of Cultists I think.

Only if you spring for pinks.

And they are AT MOST twice as durable. Usually less so.

Yeah, the reach on the Butchers is really quite compelling. Especially if you’re castling. Honestly? I think the main thing the Decimator has over a Contemptor is Epidemius synergy, and niche stuff with advance and charge from a tree or Herald of Slaanesh. BS2+ & HELBRUTE is really nice. I really wanna get one, and the more I think about, the more I think I’ll only really field it in Daemonkin lists.

 akaean wrote:

 RobS wrote:


Just looking at points costs for what the models I've bought already have. And I've got a terminator squad with combi meltas. I think deepstriking next to something precious to the opponent, that could be pretty nasty. You'd want meltas against armour, plasma against troops I guess?

Also, heavy flamers are rubbish.

I used to absolutely *love* termicide squads through 5th and 6th edition. Back then it had several advantages. 1) Temrinaters were cheaper at around 33 points per model, 2) Combi Meltas were single shot and only 5 points, 3) Temrinator Minimum Squad size was 3 models. 4) There wasn't a 9 inch restriction on deep striking. So you could drop into melta range (you could also mishap or fail to come on, but whatever).

These days basically everything has changed. Back in the old days, you had a dirty cheap throwaway anti tank unit that would drop in, melta something's face off, then do whatever until they died. They performed pretty well for just north of 100 points for a squad of 3. Now though... Terminators lost their ability to be a throw away unit. Between the point increase associated with the second wound, and the increasing of the minimum squad cap, and the increase in wargear prices on the combi melta especially... the minimum price for a squad of melta terminators is now easily north of 250 points. Also while you don't need to worry about your reserve rolls being poor, and you don't need to worry about a mishap potentially killing your squad, you also cannot drop those melta guns into optimal range anymore. You also didn't really care if your terminators mishapped in earlier editions. It sucked sure, but it was only 105 points at the end of the day.

For a little while in 8th I ran my Raptors with Meltas. 2 Melta Guns and a Combi Melta. And tried to use em like I used to use termicide. It didn't really work that well for me. Dropping 9 inches away is a big issue with Melta Guns, as they really want to be within 6 to guarentee vehicle kills and to be worth it over other options. I ended up switching my Raptors over to Plas and haven't looked back. Unlike Melta, Plasma can drop into their ideal range, as they rapid fire out to 12. I still use Melta on my bikers. But they can use their good movement, and warp time to get their melta guns within 6 inches. Raptors haven't been closing the gap effectively for me.

Honestly, I'm not sure the best way to run Terminators. I've never seen anybody actually field Chaos Terminators, Scarab Occult Terminators, or Loyalist Terminators and not felt disappointed at their performance. Hopefully we can get an update on Terminators. I for one would love to see them go back to their 5th edition "glory" days as a cheap disposable anti tank drop that your opponent couldn't ignore.

You are right, they are expensive for what a squad like that would end up doing : drop them in on T2 to do a load of damage then watch them get vapourised next go. Albeit they would be a good distraction for that turn.

But I really like terminators and it's what I have so I'd probably still do it for the time being.

I've also got a terminator close combat squad, but that's even more of a gamble. I reckon they could be a right pain for the opponent if they made their charge after deepstriking. But if they failed it they'd probably get shot off the board without landing a hit.

But then, in my day, Chaos terminators couldn't teleport at all. And all this were fields...

I hadn't considered the Daemons synergy effects with the Decimators. Actually, my Khorne daemons could help my Blood Slaughterers reroll charges too!

 Ap0k wrote:
Second the Helverins suggestion. They're pretty much the perfect weapon against DE. Outranging his threats gives you back some of the initiative rather than letting them decide when and where to fight all the time.

Deredeo is flat better in ever way to a helverin. Has more wounds, the same save, better BS can add +1 vs fly and it's guns are better against more matchups. PLUS it has helbrute keyword, and it can benefit from psychic powers and buffing characters. Costs more for the greater HL but worth it every time if you have points. I'd almost never take chaos armigers of either type over the access of walkers we already have. They soak their own detachment for no real CP gained and they have none of the good buffs the good knights get.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: anyone playing Triple Decimators with Twin Soulburner Petards? How have they been working out for you?

Drukarii are big in my local meta right now and I've been working on ways to deal with them. Seems like I always get into a short-range firefight and they've always got some negative to-hit modifier making it hard to blast them.

So I'm thinking about units that auto-hit, but I'm concerned about other downsides. Are they really that much of an improvement over a contemptor?

I tested them along with three BloodSlaughterers and two Hellwrights to cause an insane numbers of mortal wounds and they performed well but in the end I was tabled every time I tried this list.
An immediate threat like Blood Slaughterers that have a 16" move is vital to keep the Decimators alive, as the enemy has to kill the Slaughterer first as they are rape machines and a nemesis for every infantry unit they charge.
The combo works only in casual games as all the units are overcosted for what they can do.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
Second the Helverins suggestion. They're pretty much the perfect weapon against DE. Outranging his threats gives you back some of the initiative rather than letting them decide when and where to fight all the time.

Deredeo is flat better in ever way to a helverin. Has more wounds, the same save, better BS can add +1 vs fly and it's guns are better against more matchups. PLUS it has helbrute keyword, and it can benefit from psychic powers and buffing characters. Costs more for the greater HL but worth it every time if you have points. I'd almost never take chaos armigers of either type over the access of walkers we already have. They soak their own detachment for no real CP gained and they have none of the good buffs the good knights get.

Erm, hang on a minute. Deredeo with Butcher Cannon and Greater Havoc Launcher is 66 pts more expensive than a Helverin, and it’s weapons have a range of 36-48 vs 60-60.

I agree that being able to fit a Deredeo into a Battalion or Spearhead is excellent, CP-wise, and their compatibility with CSM buffs is good (shame EC doesn’t behave like a Lieutenant), and I’m not interested in getting a Helverin myself, but I wouldn’t discount the latter as an efficient gunner.