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 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
Second the Helverins suggestion. They're pretty much the perfect weapon against DE. Outranging his threats gives you back some of the initiative rather than letting them decide when and where to fight all the time.

Deredeo is flat better in ever way to a helverin. Has more wounds, the same save, better BS can add +1 vs fly and it's guns are better against more matchups. PLUS it has helbrute keyword, and it can benefit from psychic powers and buffing characters. Costs more for the greater HL but worth it every time if you have points. I'd almost never take chaos armigers of either type over the access of walkers we already have. They soak their own detachment for no real CP gained and they have none of the good buffs the good knights get.

You're completely ignoring the fact that a 74" effective range vs DE is a huge advantage. You force Disintegrators to come to you if they want to remove the threat, rather than you having to figure out a way to get into 36" range without being alpha struck off the table on the return volley. Helverins give you a positioning advantage. Leviathans/Deredeo's don't. DE's primary strength (outside of busted dissies and FLY) is their ability to dictate when and where the fight happens, and being able to force them into a position they don't want to be in is an important part of beating them.

174pts vs 212/247pts is also kinda a big deal.

I don't disagree that Leviathans/Deredeos are much more able to benefit from auras/psychic support/stratagems, but that's not much consolation if they get blown off the table the turn after they get into range.

DE are one of my main factions. IDK what world you think getting into range of a helverin is difficult. There is no deployment that ravagers cannot get into range. Further more, only when a DE player is toning down his list does he leave fliers out of his list. Helverins only have a 74" range on paper. Do you seriously not use terrain? Both platforms (ravagers and armigers) have a 14" move, only one has fly and assault though, your playing on one terrible table if you have 74" range and LOS to something, period.

EDIT

Oh BTW your ignoring the fact that the dreredeo not only costs more, but has more wounds and idealy -1 to hit (alpha legion) that more then makes up for the cost. Dissies go down in efficiency very quickly when they are hitting on 4's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ap0k wrote:


I don't disagree that Leviathans/Deredeos are much more able to benefit from auras/psychic support/stratagems, but that's not much consolation if they get blown off the table the turn after they get into range.

But that was the entire point you chose to gloss over. With alpha legion and psychic character support they outlast the helverin. Helverins are stuck on there own in an edition that is 90% about combo/aura buffs. A Tzeentch deredeo suddenly gets a 4++, slaanesh a 5+++ you can't do that with a helverin. A helverin gets to rotate Ion shields if the DE player allows it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ill Also add, DE take advantage of not being hit, do to there own speed/deployment options and stratagems/flicker fields. Things got even worse with the +1 save strat that DE get to use but can turn off on the other guy. Pretty much the short story is DE will beat ANY chaos army when matching lists alone, so for me the issue I have with helverins is they suck verse other targets. Auto canons are not good at killing t7+ tanks, they are also glorified heavy bolters vs infantry.

There is a reason why hype over mini knights dropped off and folks are just taking proper knights. Proper knights are way better per point.

Y'know what's better than -1/4++/5+++?

Not being in range to get shot at all for a turn or two, while you can largely fire with impunity (depending on external factors).

I play on a table that fairly closely resembles the NOVA terrain layout, and from an elevated position (like, the big hills in either corner), Most vehicles can see fairly well through the windows in the 2nd level of central terrain to the diagonally opposite corner of the table. Yeah, Dissies will get in range within a turn or two, but that's a turn or two of almost completely free shooting for me (in a vacuum, not considering your disruption units or my attempts to prevent your disruption, etc).

If a DE player wants to be able to Labyrinthine Cunning deployment stage stratagems, his Archon is one of the first units he puts on the table, which then locks his Ravagers to that general area if they want to benefit from re-roll auras. At that point, you stick the Helverins at the diagonally opposite end of the table and tadaa! You're 80"+ away. At that point there are obviously a number of units he can deploy to the Helverins side of the table to tie them up, but with the exception of bikes, there's not much (if anything) that's going to reach them turn 1. Plus screening etc.

There will still be places for vehicles/units to hide, but that's fine, since you're at least confining them to manageable areas of the table, rather than giving them almost completely free reign by generating virtually zero pressure on them (that doesn't expose you to greater casualties than you deal).

The entire problem with Deredeos/Leviathans/Contemptors/Decimators armed with Butcher-type weaponry is that they *cannot* compete with the points efficiency of Ravager damage output at the mid-range they operate in, and their relative lack of mobility makes it incredibly difficult to get an alpha strike off to cripple the Ravager blob without leaving themselves either vulnerable to a counter-volley, or within range of a huge amount of other threatening DE weaponry (haywire taloi, blasters, etc), at which point you're trading away more points to kill Ravagers than the Ravagers are worth. 36" allows them to be drawn into range to be assaulted and tied up, or for DE to exploit the extra 4" of threat range they have over them.

All said and done, though, there's a reason virtually nobody uses any of them (with the exception of Death Guard Leviathans).

Out of all those options, I'd still pick Helverins both for the range advantage, and for the fact I don't need to dedicate another 100+ points worth of babysitting units to make them passable.

Pretty much the short story is DE will beat ANY chaos army when matching lists alone, so for me the issue I have with helverins is they suck verse other targets. Auto canons are not good at killing t7+ tanks, they are also glorified heavy bolters vs infantry.

On this I don't disagree. It's a garbage matchup. In an ideal world, I'd probably just slam 400 cultists + Abby on the table and choke the board up with bodies vs DE. They don't tend to bring enough firepower to drop 400+ fearless bodies, and good luck getting to objectives when I can just million man march my way across the table. The discussion tangent, however, was raised because a dude was having issues dealing with DE, and had been looking at Decimators as an option.

The Deredeo has more wounds, but does that equate more durability for the price?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Deredeo has more wounds, but does that equate more durability for the price?

At -1 to hit it's close and with psychic buffs I'd say definitely, and thats not factoring in the synergy.

 Ap0k wrote:
Y'know what's better than -1/4++/5+++?

Not being in range to get shot at all for a turn or two, while you can largely fire with impunity (depending on external factors).

I play on a table that fairly closely resembles the NOVA terrain layout, and from an elevated position (like, the big hills in either corner), Most vehicles can see fairly well through the windows in the 2nd level of central terrain to the diagonally opposite corner of the table. Yeah, Dissies will get in range within a turn or two, but that's a turn or two of almost completely free shooting for me (in a vacuum, not considering your disruption units or my attempts to prevent your disruption, etc).

If a DE player wants to be able to Labyrinthine Cunning deployment stage stratagems, his Archon is one of the first units he puts on the table, which then locks his Ravagers to that general area if they want to benefit from re-roll auras. At that point, you stick the Helverins at the diagonally opposite end of the table and tadaa! You're 80"+ away. At that point there are obviously a number of units he can deploy to the Helverins side of the table to tie them up, but with the exception of bikes, there's not much (if anything) that's going to reach them turn 1. Plus screening etc.

There will still be places for vehicles/units to hide, but that's fine, since you're at least confining them to manageable areas of the table, rather than giving them almost completely free reign by generating virtually zero pressure on them (that doesn't expose you to greater casualties than you deal).

The entire problem with Deredeos/Leviathans/Contemptors/Decimators armed with Butcher-type weaponry is that they *cannot* compete with the points efficiency of Ravager damage output at the mid-range they operate in, and their relative lack of mobility makes it incredibly difficult to get an alpha strike off to cripple the Ravager blob without leaving themselves either vulnerable to a counter-volley, or within range of a huge amount of other threatening DE weaponry (haywire taloi, blasters, etc), at which point you're trading away more points to kill Ravagers than the Ravagers are worth. 36" allows them to be drawn into range to be assaulted and tied up, or for DE to exploit the extra 4" of threat range they have over them.

All said and done, though, there's a reason virtually nobody uses any of them (with the exception of Death Guard Leviathans).

Out of all those options, I'd still pick Helverins both for the range advantage, and for the fact I don't need to dedicate another 100+ points worth of babysitting units to make them passable.

Pretty much the short story is DE will beat ANY chaos army when matching lists alone, so for me the issue I have with helverins is they suck verse other targets. Auto canons are not good at killing t7+ tanks, they are also glorified heavy bolters vs infantry.

On this I don't disagree. It's a garbage matchup. In an ideal world, I'd probably just slam 400 cultists + Abby on the table and choke the board up with bodies vs DE. They don't tend to bring enough firepower to drop 400+ fearless bodies, and good luck getting to objectives when I can just million man march my way across the table. The discussion tangent, however, was raised because a dude was having issues dealing with DE, and had been looking at Decimators as an option.

First off, thanks for giving me a clear picture on your table. I am not a big fan of NOVA terrain. It's cool for their event but as a general standard IMHO it's terrible. WAY to easily gamed which was why Castellans were even more potent at this years NOVA. Part of 40k is being prepared for a random table, While I like to have two large BLOS pieces centrally as a general rule, I don't like NOVAS weird Corner shapes and have yet to see a year those have not been gamed hard.

So yea, if your using their terrain policy and can pretty much guarantee LOS at max range then it is what it is I guess? I think that is kind of terrible in regard to having a tactical game. No unit should have corner to corner LOS in 8th vs a none titan unless the other player is allowing for it.

In regard to DE tactics, your kind off in left field. With the new Deepstrike ruling I am either hard deploying my ravagers or I have until turn two, meaning I am not even close to locked in my deployment. And BTW if your using that 14" move without fly your not bubble wrapping completely, or you are and your not moving liberally. You can't have it both ways there. Minor issue but worth mentioning since your right, bubble wrap regardless of what you take is essential, but it slows down mobility and limits deployment options.

BTW your never out gunning ravagers on an efficiency level, they are criminally undercost currently. I have tried helverins in a ton of test games and they underperformed much of the time. I am just not a fan since they struggle vs tanks and are heavy bolter equivalents vs infantry. There is a reason why most players with access to knights don't waste time with them and just take normal knights. I know deredeos are not perfect either BTW, but I find they work better in this case since they have a higher tactical flexibility. At least a deredeo still hits a venom on a 2 and can get rerolls. At that point your essentially auto hitting with it's weapons. A deredeo with its targetting array, twin HB's and the launcher while expensive can be a real PITA. It can down one venom with the butcher canons and deal half the wounds to another, meaning two will drop three venoms a turn. With Alpha legion and delightful agonies on a deredeo you need 96 dissy shots, less near the archon but I am lazy for that kind of math right now and it isn't necessary to the point I'm making.

Take for example:

A slaanesh deredeo with delightful agonies requires 96 shots at 4+ to hit for alpha legion nets 48 hits. A third wound, so 16, of which ~11 get past the invulnerable save for 22 damage which is required for him to fail two thirds or 14 wounds. Thats ludicrous.

A Tzeentch deredeo with weaver of fates requires 84 shots. 42 hit, 14 wound, 7 get past the 4++ Not as crazy but close.

A helverin requires 40 shots. 27 hit, 9 wound, 6 get by for 12 damage.

I think we both just have differing philosophies on how to deal with ravager nonsense.

I agree that in a straight 36" shootout, Glamour/Weavered Leviathans or Delightful Deredeos have a huge durability advantage in a vacuum. My issue with that sort of strategy is that it doesn't factor in the additional blaster/haywire shots that it puts those units easily within range of. Suddenly those 84-96 shots drop significantly, and the damage output on the CSM platforms just isn't enough to cripple the flying circus before they get overrun. That's not even factoring in the inability to bring multiple units for redundancy purposes, since you can only psychic buff one at a time, at which point he just shoots the crap out of the ones you didn't buff.

Even if you swap NOVA's central semi-LOS blockers for 2-3 story full-LOS blockers, you gain a significant advantage with Helverins due to their zoning capability, particularly given the Ravagers will suffer the same problems with complete LOS blocking terrain. In that scenario, you can force them to overextend either on top of said LOS blockers, which opens them up to firepower across the table (range dependent), or they have to play a more cautious game which mitigates their ability to inflict severe casualties. 3 Helverins parked in a corner of the table will zone them away from anywhere within 74" that they can draw vision to, and the critical part is that it doesn't particularly expose Helverins to do so. That's not something you can safely do with the more mid-range Butcher-type platforms without opening yourself up to being outmaneuvered.

Dissie ravagers are way undercosted, but it sadly doesn't change the fact they need to be dealt with in some way or another. Whether that's by mitigating their ability to control the battlefield with their movement/range, or figuring out some non-suicidal way of alpha striking them off the table is largely irrelevant. The crux of my point is that CSM just don't seem to have any efficient means of performing the latter, which leaves only the former as a feasible option.

Obviously Helverins aren't the best TAC choice, but in a CSM vs DE matchup, I just don't think the other options hold up. That 36" range is just too big a disadvantage vs a faction that can fly 14+" with its' massively cost efficient threats.

As a DE player I can tell you I am never in a game where I don't dictate when and where the fight is. It's the entire shtick of the army. The best way to handle it is durability.

For the record I totally forgot to post the maths on Miasma of Pestilence...99 dissy shots to down one!

DE blasters are 18" range, and haywire is none existant really. You only get it on Talos which start at BS 4+ and usually advance + fire and fade to clse the distance. Those shots are worthless and only a means to get them closer since fire and fade requires shots and it's the only assault weapon available to them. Scourge lack obscessions and are not cost effective.

So really your referencing blasters as if they are an issue, which is a joke since they are single shot weapons that are always on venoms since they both have that 18" sweet spot. This is why I specifically referrenced how well deredeos handle venoms. The back bone in any DE list is venoms, dropping them is the key. A deredeo is killing one with it's butcher canons and dealing ~5 of the 6 wounds to a second with the twin HB and GHL. Thats massive, especially since the havoclauncher doesn't need LOS in later turns.

You deal with dissy ravagers by surviving them. They are cheap platforms with a solid gun, but at the end of the day dissys over kill cultists and are literally the equivalent, yet struggle to put wounds on armor. They murder primaris, but they suck anyway. Personally, I take dark lances on all three of my ravagers, dissys are consistant across an entire game, DE need to kill them early. But thats for the DE tactica thread, I could go on and on about how dissys are the losing choice.

As to your terrain, hey man it's your meta. In my own area and games we play with a healthy amount of BLOS and ruins because shooting galleries suck. Gunlines are still strong, but they can't just turtle up the entire game and blow the other army away and expect to win, they need to eventually make a move. Or not and lose on missions.

I hope I am not coming across rude BTW, I tend to come across rather blunt n written form at times. Just trying to push back on conventional thought here. I own an absurd amount of stuff (not bragging, I just have an addiction to 40k) so I tend to play the crap out of several options that fill similar rolls, sometimes in mock up scenarios. For me helverins are OK and I'd never fault someone for taking them, but specifically in a match against DE, something I have a TON of experience with on both sides, they really are not much of a threat. A proper knight will give DE WAY more issues and cost less.



To your very last point, if your worried about DE, build a list that makes them inefficient. Lots of cheap cultists that are fearless, and super durable support shooters like I mentioned. This allows you to ignore ther dissy boats and focus on the venoms. The venoms are what wind the DE the game in the end phases, they also have a lot of damage output tied up in them. Most DE players are happy you waste so many turns trading with cheap ravagers while the venoms are doing damage elsewhere. Venoms boats are midrange so the deredeos can easily engage them, and will shred them. It's stil lan uphill game for sure, but thats just codex creep in action.

I know am am addressing your points all over the place here so I appologize, I am on my way out the door and am rushing a bit, but wanted to give you a response.

Cheers!

You're literally the last person to trust the moment you said Disintegrators are a losing choice to Dark Lances. Have you done basic math like AT ALL on that?

 Red Corsair wrote:
As a DE player I can tell you I am never in a game where I don't dictate when and where the fight is. It's the entire shtick of the army. The best way to handle it is durability...

Thank you for the perspective. I hate playing against DE, it's like everyone suddenly decided to get an army. I've been going mass-armor and mass-infantry against them, both approaches seem laden with downsides.

Do you really see the Deredo as the best option against them? I guess I'm surprised to hear about that over a Leviathan.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
As a DE player I can tell you I am never in a game where I don't dictate when and where the fight is. It's the entire shtick of the army. The best way to handle it is durability...

Thank you for the perspective. I hate playing against DE, it's like everyone suddenly decided to get an army. I've been going mass-armor and mass-infantry against them, both approaches seem laden with downsides.

Do you really see the Deredo as the best option against them? I guess I'm surprised to hear about that over a Leviathan.

Deredeo is pretty cheap as an add-on, and gives out less points if killed (as it isn't much more effort to kill a Leviathan for the price). The Leviathan is still a monster though, no doubt about it.

Hi guys!

I dramaticly try to make normal CSM squads work in competive seetings. My newest idea is to take them as Havocs ( same price, more spec weapons ) and run them arrouns Abbadon.

Abbadon and 2x 10 havocs ( in each squad for example 4 plazma gun and combi plazm ).

Any ideas/though on this topic? I still pray for lower cost for them in CHA2k18.

Nizrah wrote:
Hi guys!

I dramaticly try to make normal CSM squads work in competive seetings. My newest idea is to take them as Havocs ( same price, more spec weapons ) and run them arrouns Abbadon.

Abbadon and 2x 10 havocs ( in each squad for example 4 plazma gun and combi plazm ).

Any ideas/though on this topic? I still pray for lower cost for them in CHA2k18.

Abaddon makes everything around him better. I run normal CSMs with lascannons to fill out troop slots and that works fine.

Here's the thing about Abaddon + Plasma Havocs - they have a 24 inch threat radius. You can't sit back and wait for your opponent to come to you. Likewise, at 24 inches, most things can shoot at you.

if you want to run an army that fights up-close and personal - go ahead! If you want to run one where you can sit back and shoot things up while opponents come to you - think about lascannons, autocannons and missile launchers.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deredeo is pretty cheap as an add-on, and gives out less points if killed (as it isn't much more effort to kill a Leviathan for the price). The Leviathan is still a monster though, no doubt about it.

Interesting. I'm all about beating Drukhari right now. Time to start playtesting.

On the helverin discussion:

I have found a lot of success with mine. Yes, they are fragile, and they dont get direct buffs, but thats part of what makes them strong; they are self sufficient and cost very little. As well, they combo very well with debuffs like shriveling pox, making them hurt knights on 4s. I combine with pbcs, leaves my opponents choosing their poison

Helverins look pretty good as a corner anchor

Place them so they’re within 9” of the corner edges, no need to babysit them with auras, just plug away at anything within 5ft, only LOS and the very far corners stops them from tagging a target

(Of course this is very dependent on your terrain meta)

 lindsay40k wrote:
Helverins look pretty good as a corner anchor

Place them so they’re within 9” of the corner edges, no need to babysit them with auras, just plug away at anything within 5ft, only LOS and the very far corners stops them from tagging a target

(Of course this is very dependent on your terrain meta)

Bingo. Helverins also have excellent damage spike potential and work well against all light and medium targets. D3 is great

What about 3 predator ( autocannon and las on sponsons ) with killshot? Juicy 4 dmg on autocannon! I must try it myself. Have you tried it already?

Sounds great until you think about the fact that your opponent only has to snipe one of those predators out to deny you the stratagem for the rest of the game.

It's just too telegraphed, and experienced players aren't likely to just ignore them when it's clear what you're trying to do. Popping vehicles without invulns is pretty easy for most armies these days.

I tried chaos soup today (still pure CSM) and it worked out better than expected. Of course, my opponent took a fluffy list (still imperium soup).

My list was originally full world eaters and had the triple predator tank for kill shot. But then I compared the Deathguard plague burst crawler to a predator tank and the different was just too great. So, I took a spearhead detachment of deathguard with three plague burst crawlers and a nurgle sorceror and a hellbrute.

My main list was world eaters. Had 20 zerkers and boy did they shine so much this game. I also brought 3 squads of minimal bikes (sergeant combi bolter). Shows how fluffy my list was! lol.

Anyway, the bikes were amazing too. Thing is, I skipped cultists totally. My core troop was 4 squads of zerkers (all chain axes, chain swords and sergeant power fist) squeezed into 2 Rhinos. I didnt even accompany them with m y characters! lol. (Though I did have a dark apostle and chaos lord on foot with murder sword as HQ).

I had my distraction carnefix too - a WE defiler with twinbolters and the defiler scourge.

So, I go first and my shooting isn't that great, which was ok (I expected it). But the bikes were able to into double tap range of his 3 squads of scouts and I discimated all 3 squads. Rest of the shooting took out one squad of infantry and one or two of his 10 man death company.

I thought I was in big trouble. Anyway, turns out he had brought a super melee lost. It had a Taranis Gallant, a 10 man squad of sanguinary guard, a 10 man squad of death company, mephiston, smash captain, sainguinary priest and sanguinary Ancient, the guy had 5 wounds and projected an aura of feel no pain).

He also had a battalion of IG just for extra CPs. And he had two squads of 3 mortars each. But his mortars were not very effective the whole game. No cultists for him to kill, just CSM marines in power armour, or vehiclesto shoot at.

So, after my 1st round shooting didn't do much, but decimated his 3 scout units and wiped 1 infantry sqaud, he charged in full tilt. He teleported his Sanguinary guard and made the 3d6 charge into my PBC, and he later piled into another PBC and my hellbrute! But those PBC are so tough! He barely took 3 wounds off one PBC cos he strung out his squad so much (I didnt cluster those 3 vehicles, 10 sang guard can cover quite a lot of space). My hellbrute hit alot (scourge), but his saves that round were amazing. He saved 7 wounds with his saves from my hellbrute!

His Gallant then somehow failed to kill either one of my Rhinos (one took 6 and another was down to 1 wound), cos he tried to kill both and ended up failing. All his jump pack characters and death company jumped over but had no targets other than to destroy a 3 man bike squad. He arranged his death company around his 3 characters and hoped they could screen him. And that was it for his turn.

My turn, all 4 squads of 20 berserkers came boiling out of the Rhinos and charged into combat. One squad charged his sang guard, another charged the Gallant along with my defiler. two squads moved into charge range of his 3 characters surrounded by death company. My shooting took out enough of his death company shield so that he left 4. 10 zerkers (2 powerfists sergeants) then charged into his death company (4 men left) and 3 characters.

And this is where the epicness happened. Those 10 WE zerkers, had zero character support (my characters I kept back because we were playing ITC rules and he picked killing characters as one of his secondary objectives). When the melee dust cleared, those 2 squads of 5 each had killed the smash captain, Mephiston, the Sang priest and 3 of the death company (last surviver died to morale) !!! 10 zerkers took out like 500 points in one epic charge!!

His Gallant did the cool thing of destroying my 2 Rhinos with his guantlet and throwing both Rhinos at my zerker squad and Defiler. It killed my defiler over two turns in the end too. But not before my defiler used demonforge twice over two round to severely injure it. (It had a 2+ armor save relic, a warlord trait 4++ and a Taranis 6+ fnp to boot!).

Anyway, his Gallant died by turn 4 to a smite from my sorceror. And the amazing thing is that all my PBCs were still alive lol. His remaining mortar teams (which I ignored the whole game) wouldn't have been able to do much against my PBC, and his entire melee force had been wiped out by my melee. (The Sang guard interrupted and took out one zerker squad and eventually the hellbrute, but not before being reduced to just 2 man from all the melee fighting, and they were finished off by a charge from my dark apostle and chaos lord with murder sword.

Those 2 zerker squad that took out his 3 characters then got charged by his Sanguinary ancient, and they took that out as well! lol, so that is 4 character killed by 2 zerker squads. They died finally to his mortars though (only after he unloaded all 6 of them into the 3 survivers!).

When he conceded the game after his Gallant died, I had one surviving bike squad of 3 sitting on one of his objectives. And my 2 PBC were on my 2 objectives. In fact, all 3 PBC were still alive and so were 2 of my characters. He had 2 mortar teams, his IG characters and one infantry squad left sitting on just one objective.

It was a very enjoyable match because we both brought relatively fluffy lists. It was still soup (for both sides), and we didnt intentionally gimp ourselves, but both lists could give each other a hard fight without necessarily any hard unkillable counters. Ok, his Gallant was really tough (4++, 2+, 6+ FNP), but I still managed to kill it in the end with the demon forged defiler, powerfist attacks from my zerker sergeant, shooting from PBCs, and smites from the sorceror).

But all in all, what I loved the most was that this was a game where those world eaters berserkers really shone! All that 2+ armor save from mephiston, 3++ from the captain, and whatever FNP that death company and blood angels had still didn't stop those 2 squads of zerkers from killing all 4 of his characters and his death company! It was just so epic!

I guess now the challenge would be to see if this list can fare ok against the heavy shooting lists which are more common. (sigh).

Thanks for the battle report! That looks like a great game.

Regarding the Deredeo vs other stuff, I like the Deredeo because it can take the Hellfire Veil, and give things within 6" an invulnerable save. That would help out other long range shooty Helbrutes, or a marching band of fearless Cultists, or tanks. However Chaos Deredeos are jealous of the Imperial gun options I think.

I would agree the Helverins are great for corners kinda out of the mix.

For a Leviathan I would like to try flying up or dropping a double grav-flux version in a Kharybdis.


I had a game vs triple Plagueburst Crawler Deathguard and I couldn't get much of anything through their toughness, armor, or FNP. That's where a Soulburner Decimator would come in handy, as one can't really ignore those types of units. Also vs super invul Harlequin jetbikes. Need those mortal wounds that can't be Denied their Witch like psychics can be.

Looking for opinions.

I painted up a store army for fun. The owner is telling me to pick a single item off the shelves as a gift.

Thinking Renegade Knights. I have a choice between the Renegades Box or any of the other Knights GW currently makes.

Problem is I haven't been paying that much attention to Knights. Is the Dominus actually worth it? Would I do better with a pair of simple Renegades? Does the Renegade box actually have everything I would need to do up 2 Renegade Knights, is there something else I need?

Thoughts / opinions would be appreciated. He's leaving on a trip Monday and I'd need to decide before then or wait a couple months.

The Dominus isn't really worth it. Imperial Castellans are great because of relics/house traits and the fact you can just dump CP's into them to make them absurdly cost efficient. The alternate weapon options the Dominus has over the Renegade aren't much to write home about, and there's no significant stratagem support to improve them.

Regular old double Avenger Gatling Cannon Renegade Knights are probably your best bang for points.

AFAIK the Renegades box comes with one of each weapon option, so while you'd have the hulls to build 2 Knights, you'd likely have to convert or source additional Gatling Cannons from ebay or some other bits source.

It's also worth bearing in mind that a Super Heavy Detachment only generates CP in combinations of a single Titanic unit (+3CP), or with 3 Titanic units (+6CP), so unless you're going to pick up a 3rd Knight, having a 2nd isn't a huge advantage unless you just want the additional dakka. The optimal configuration would probably be 1 Knight and 2 solo Helverins for your 3CP, which comes in at a fairly reasonable 800ish points. Either that, or you just take a single Knight as an Auxiliary and forfeit any CP/stratagem support for it.

I'd also expect Knights to become more expensive across the board with CA2018, so that might be worth factoring into your decision. Whilst it's an unknown quantity at the minute, you could get burned for 'buying in' at this stage, with CA2018 maybe 6-10 weeks away. The counterpoint to that is that Renegade Knights don't stand to lose as much as their Imperial counterparts, so it might still be a fairly safe bet.

 Ap0k wrote:
The Dominus isn't really worth it. Imperial Castellans are great because of relics/house traits and the fact you can just dump CP's into them to make them absurdly cost efficient. The alternate weapon options the Dominus has over the Renegade aren't much to write home about, and there's no significant stratagem support to improve them.

Regular old double Avenger Gatling Cannon Renegade Knights are probably your best bang for points.

AFAIK the Renegades box comes with one of each weapon option, so while you'd have the hulls to build 2 Knights, you'd likely have to convert or source additional Gatling Cannons from ebay or some other bits source.

It's also worth bearing in mind that a Super Heavy Detachment only generates CP in combinations of a single Titanic unit (+3CP), or with 3 Titanic units (+6CP), so unless you're going to pick up a 3rd Knight, having a 2nd isn't a huge advantage unless you just want the additional dakka. The optimal configuration would probably be 1 Knight and 2 solo Helverins for your 3CP, which comes in at a fairly reasonable 800ish points. Either that, or you just take a single Knight as an Auxiliary and forfeit any CP/stratagem support for it.

I'd also expect Knights to become more expensive across the board with CA2018, so that might be worth factoring into your decision. Whilst it's an unknown quantity at the minute, you could get burned for 'buying in' at this stage, with CA2018 maybe 6-10 weeks away. The counterpoint to that is that Renegade Knights don't stand to lose as much as their Imperial counterparts, so it might still be a fairly safe bet.

Nice thoughts.

I think I will get the Renegades box and risk the changes in CA. They may turn into expensive shelf decorations, but they will look nice.

Damn. Didn't get the 200th page 1st post....

How do you guys like the new CSM from Blackstone fortress?

 Astmeister wrote:
How do you guys like the new CSM from Blackstone fortress?

Not seen, is there a link somewhere?

Also we get maybee cultists, or r&h, is that true?

 Astmeister wrote:
How do you guys like the new CSM from Blackstone fortress?

1 model with 2 heads? Thanks? It looks good but remind me of the DV chosen, without the variety. Lord looks sweet but he needs a bike or jet pack.

Dactylartha wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How do you guys like the new CSM from Blackstone fortress?

1 model with 2 heads? Thanks? It looks good but remind me of the DV chosen, without the variety. Lord looks sweet but he needs a bike or jet pack.

I mean if he's strictly buffing a gunline he doesn't need much fancy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How do you guys like the new CSM from Blackstone fortress?

1 model with 2 heads? Thanks? It looks good but remind me of the DV chosen, without the variety. Lord looks sweet but he needs a bike or jet pack.

I mean if he's strictly buffing a gunline he doesn't need much fancy.

I agree, but he's already got a power maul and combi-plas, presumably, so that's a bunch of points invested in a gunline motivator for weapons he's not designed to use? He may be an aspiring or exalted champion too. My bet would be exalted except the KT EC can't take those weapons; however, our KT EC can't take a combi-melta either but that's what the designated model is built with.

Well you could use the Combi-Plas I guess but yeah it is points being used that aren't, well, being used.