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Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
Yea I run mine with twin heavy bolters at 169 and just stick him in the front of my lines. I actually screen my cultists with him, who in turn screen my gunline. So many people dump everything into the guy turn 1 and he usually survives, especially if I go first and cast a buff on him and pop smoke. I just rush center field with him and block them as long as possible. I actually think defilers are fine, maulers aren't bad either if you use an exalted champion and apostle they basically all get demon forge all the time. The one that truly sucks ass is the forge fiend, his price point is utterly absurd lol.
If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot. I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/21 19:13:08
akaean wrote: I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot.
I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
Decent points all around. Do you run him in Vanilla chaos or one of the other codices?
Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
You know me, I like to run what I feel is da-bestest killiest Chaos stuff
That said, 169 points to distract isn't TOO bad... but when you put them against a PBC, or Oblits, or Havoks, they feel...flat. I like the idea, what faction do you run them as?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
Thats not a bad idea, doing a DG list and slingshotting them with a Gnarlmaw. My only issue here is that 1k sons boost the defilers staying power, while nurgle supports its killiness (spells and buffs) outside of miasma. I already feel like I'm gimping myself taking two, its just how to best make them work... I feel like if they had the Helbrute keyword they would actually be very usable, especially in Death Guard armies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/21 21:09:47
akaean wrote: I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot.
I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
Decent points all around. Do you run him in Vanilla chaos or one of the other codices?
Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
You know me, I like to run what I feel is da-bestest killiest Chaos stuff
That said, 169 points to distract isn't TOO bad... but when you put them against a PBC, or Oblits, or Havoks, they feel...flat. I like the idea, what faction do you run them as?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
Thats not a bad idea, doing a DG list and slingshotting them with a Gnarlmaw. My only issue here is that 1k sons boost the defilers staying power, while nurgle supports its killiness (spells and buffs) outside of miasma. I already feel like I'm gimping myself taking two, its just how to best make them work... I feel like if they had the Helbrute keyword they would actually be very usable, especially in Death Guard armies.
Defiler does not equal Helbrute, in any way shape or form. Besides, they already have one of the most broken stratagems in the Chaos Codexes, which is a 1 CP reroll EVERYTHING button in a phase.
Defiler does not equal Helbrute, in any way shape or form. Besides, they already have one of the most broken stratagems in the Chaos Codexes, which is a 1 CP reroll EVERYTHING button in a phase.
True, but using 1 cp to make something usable... especially if you have two, isnt too great; considering its bs 5+ once it moves. Im just saying it was considered a walker in past editions, which seems to have been replaced with other keywords.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's only a broken stratagem if you can use it on something halfway decent. Maybe a decimator.
Units shouldn't be priced like they always have a Strategem active though.
There is however allready a precedent, that certain weapons in combination with certain auras got a pricehike. Infact the SM codex seems to suffer from the aura efects allready and if the Auras get priced in then probably stratagems should also be priced in?
Not saying i like it as it is one of the reasons why Robute is quite popular and why marine buffs in general will fast lead to overpowered in other Marine + codexes, probably one of the more annoying problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/22 09:16:54
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's only a broken stratagem if you can use it on something halfway decent. Maybe a decimator.
Units shouldn't be priced like they always have a Strategem active though.
I agree, and its one of the reasons i dislike strategems; they took the uniqueness from the units and made abilities that can be used on multiple units. As such, they price things inappropriately to try and balance the strats; but then how did the castellan get so overlooked?
Instead, put the abilities on the units, then make strats more... i dunno, strategic? Like redeploying units, calling in air raids, getting in reinforcements earlier, even the reroll one dice a phase. Then place some of the abilities back on units and price them appropriately based on what the unit does, rather than what it might do given some one time use ability
Honestly I think Strategems should be more expensive and CP should be rare but affect the entire armies. Like, it seems weird to me only one Daemon Engine is going to get Daemonforge, or one Space Wolves unit somehow does True Grit.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I think Defiler has good stat and it should be a nice addition to my deamon beast army, but I cannot stad the model.
It's too extreme, love or hate ad I hate it: is there a decent third party alternative that is almost ready to play?
I don't want to embark myself in a difficult conversion project.
Chaos Marines since the beginning - For The Dark Gods
Look no further than ork codex. Most of their stuff is still bloated in points, but they are made good by external rules and buffs. GW hasnt been looking at just the datasheet ever since 8th dropped.
vaklor4 wrote: Look no further than ork codex. Most of their stuff is still bloated in points, but they are made good by external rules and buffs. GW hasnt been looking at just the datasheet ever since 8th dropped.
I just miss the old days where each unit was unique, and you didn't pick them just because they had "X statline" or "X equipment", which is what 8th feels like anymore. I remember niche units having uses in 5th just because of the special stuff certain units did.
I find that having buff characters like dark apostles and even foot chaos warriors and champions in a rhino with a zerker squad is overkill. In fact, I believe that 2 squads of 5 zerkers squeezed into a Rhino, unsupported has far more killing power and flexibility than just one squad along with a dark apostle or a champion. And the cost is not really that huge of a difference.
A zerker squad of 5 with all chainaxes and champ power fist is under 100 points. you are paying 20 odd points more than a dark apostle or a champion but now you have two squads instead of just one. And the hitting power of a squad of zerkers is far far beyond that of any dark apostle or champion no matter what gear you put on it.
Alsp, zerkers are so strong in close combat they dont need further buffs. I tried them unsupported before and short of an imperial knight, or super heavy, everything else just melted to those multitide of chain axe and power fist attacks.
I believe that its better to have our heroes as jump pack chaos lords with relic weapon so that they are a cheaper version of the smash captain that the marines have. A rhino with two zerker squads along with a jump pack chaos lord behind it has three threats, all of which have a big reach once the Rhino gets up the board. Well, either that or a khorne daemon prince of you have the points.
This brings me to my next thought. Khorne world eaters needs shooting to clear away chaff and blockers. Because no matter what, zerkers are glass cannons. You want them charging the expensive stuff, not the cheap blocking stuff.
While it goes against the desire of world eaters who love to get into melee, a world eaters army that has zerkers absolutely need shooting (to clear the chaff). Once you have the chaff gone and your zerkers go in, stuff will just melt and die. Key thing is the squad has to be able to charge something good and powerful, not that ten man infantry squad.
I believe that a more effective world eaters army or any CSM army with zerkers needs a fair amount of shooting. The only cases where you don't would be if you are fighting other elite armies who don't have chaff or cheap units for blockers.
What do you guys think? Of having two squads vs one squad and a hero. And of the amount of shooting you need in a zerker army.
Berzerkers usually don't NEED a sitter. And two units are more flexible...
But rerolling fail to wound makes them way more flexible against tough multiwound units (knights..) but I can see why you would drop the sitter.
And sure, 2units can cover more ground, but not that much more considering they disembark from the same transport. And bigger units benefit more from stratagems (fight twice, veterans of the long war). And bigger units are easier to wrap around enemies, making sure they can't fall back.
No Summoning (outside of Narrative, which won’t be that uncommon) but I want to use each Daemonic locus.
Karanak runs up with the MoK Maulerfiend to rendezvous with the Warp Talons, providing rerolls and DTW coverage
Herald on Steed runs up with ECDP & MoS Maulerfiend, who Warptimes for a first turn charge
Herald on Disc runs up with TSons & MoT Defiler
Poxbringer follows DG Daemons and MoN Defiler providing healing support and situational buffs
Fabius arrives with the Possessed in the KaC, enhances them in enemy turn after DA has been cast on them for minimum self-damage
Abaddon teleports down with Terminators
IW & EC Infantry sit back as firebases
No idea what to do with AL now their strat’s been nerfed
Could maybe do with a bit more armour? Maybe a Contemptor or WW Scorpius?
Might add some Renegades; a unit each turned from the Loyalist first foundings... probably start with ex-WS bikers for a first turn flame & charge?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/27 17:22:48
I love the WT minis and they give Karanak a second buffing synergy, two units dropping in with his rerolls aura gives a decent chance of stopping overwatch. When charging something like an IK or a unit with lots of autohit weapons, that can be pretty solid. In a non-tourney list this size, I can live with their overcosting.
lindsay40k wrote: I love the WT minis and they give Karanak a second buffing synergy, two units dropping in with his rerolls aura gives a decent chance of stopping overwatch. When charging something like an IK or a unit with lots of autohit weapons, that can be pretty solid. In a non-tourney list this size, I can live with their overcosting.
If you want to give Karanak more buffing synergy, forcing in Warp Talons isn't the way to do it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I’m not making a tourney list, I’m making an ‘everybody’s here’ Chaos list with a handful of units from each Legion and I’d like it to have some interesting moving parts. Main thing I want from here is Alpha Legion ideas that bear in mind what else is present.
So would a khorne herald in a khorne daemons detachment give rerolls to charges to khorne warp talons in a CSM detachment?
I really want to start running khorne daemons alongside my black legion but finding the synergies really confusing. Can anybody give me a breakdown?
I think I realised taking a daemon Prince in the CSM detachment means I can reroll 1s for both CSM and daemons so better to do that than take him as a Daemon HQ. Is that right?
Possessed suddenly don't seem as meh if they're getting khorne buffs like rerolling charges and +1 strength...
Abaddon303 wrote: So would a khorne herald in a khorne daemons detachment give rerolls to charges to khorne warp talons in a CSM detachment?
I really want to start running khorne daemons alongside my black legion but finding the synergies really confusing. Can anybody give me a breakdown?
I think I realised taking a daemon Prince in the CSM detachment means I can reroll 1s for both CSM and daemons so better to do that than take him as a Daemon HQ. Is that right?
Possessed suddenly don't seem as meh if they're getting khorne buffs like rerolling charges and +1 strength...
Chaos Daemons auras that affect DAEMON units do affect Possessed, Obliterators, Defilers, etc.
The big restriction is you can only target CD Stratagems on CD units. Not-CD DAEMON units can only indirectly benefit from them via the auras some of them create. (Nurgle and Tzeentch are my favourites in that regard.)
Worth noting that for 10pts Khorne Possessed can have an icon that gives them re-rolls on charges without being anchored to a Locus. It’s the Daemon Engines that benefit most from the charge rerolls.
There’s a huge gap between a LEGION Daemon Prince of Khorne that can give re-rolls to a few non-DAEMON LEGION units, and a CD DPoK with a Skullreaver that gets +1S&A on the charge and can beat down a Knight before breakfast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 19:36:57
Hmm interesting thank you Lindsay. I don't have the daemon codex but toying with a khorne detachment to add to my black legion. So clearly putting my DP in the daemon detachment is actually better than using the marine aura. Shame he's modelled with two talons! Maybe I need to snap his arm off...
I see your point with the possessed banner, but warp talons can't take a banner can they? So dropping a herald with them is an option but I'm not sure the CP for the deepstrike and the cost of the herald is really worth the hassle of making a pretty crap unit barely viable.
Might pick up the Daemon codex and have a look. Waiting to see what's in the wrath and rapture box as my black legion is exclusively khorne and Slaanesh marked. I've not seen any reason to use the tzeentch or nurgle marks. If the box looks interesting and good value I'll get it otherwise I might just get the khorne starter set.
I'm bored of running cultist battalions for the CP, I like the idea of a Daemon bloodletter battalion with marine vanguard or even supreme command
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jesus I just looked up the skullreaver
6 attacks hitting on 2s at S11. -4ap and d6 damage each! Plus you're prob gonna get at least 1d3 mortal wounds.
Not suprised it'll take out a knight in one go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 20:54:56
I have ran the khorne warp talons as part of a bloodletter bomb with a herald, its an expensive but viable tactic. The advantage is you can get away with running just 20 bloodletters instead of 30 since the warp talons are going to take care of overwatch for you, saving a cp. Make them world eaters for more attacks in cc, they can do work but they are definatly not an optimal choice.
Yeah, the CP cost on warping in the Herald is why I take Karanak and run him up there. That, and I converted him and like to field my handiwork
Sounds like Wrath and Rapture is perfect for you. Tzeentch and Nurgle Daemonkin works well with TSon and DG stuff but has limited CSM synergy. (There’s decent Epidemius + CSM lists, but they really want a load of DG Drones & Haulers alongside the Obliterators et al.)
Chaos Marines since the beginning - For The Dark Gods 
