Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dactylartha wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Hilariously enough, Locus of Trickery is actually a huge buff for brims if you can get them into combat.

Swapping the bloodmasters for 2 changecasters adds 44 pts to the detachment, granted for some smite flexibility, but I don't think I'll want to keep those HQ near enough to my brimmies for the brimmies to even get the locus.

The TZ locus was fun on my Warp Talons and my Heldrake though, from a DP. It actually worked really well that one game.

I think it's more a matter of having your tricksy brims be slightly better at tying up any scary beatsticks that fly around back trying to eat your herald.

 Ap0k wrote:
The big winners are Butcher Cannon (-5pts) and Butcher Array (-20pts) equipped units.

Double Butcher Contemptor is now 138 (down from 163) - Base Contemptor is now 88.

Double Butcher Array Leviathan is now 289 (down from 329)

Double Butcher Decimator will also drop to 140 (down from 150).

This is great but I hope it doesn't come with some stat line nerfs like D2 > D1 or something horrible like that.

My dark mechanicum stompybots are very happy with all these point drops.

I actually like Mutilators at 35 points. They're cheap to Deep Strike in and with all three squads you're gonna make the charge with at least one.

Deep strike chaos termis got cheaper too. A plasma sword termi only cost 43 points. So, 5 of them cost 215 points. deep strike that in, cacophny it and you get 20 plasma attacks at double tap range. And then charge into combat (hopefully).

Thats pretty decent for just 215 points. Even if it fails the charge and gets deleted off the board next turn, you only lost 215 points. 20 plasma attacks should be able to delete something worthwhile of 215 points.

But terminators will have to compete with chosen who are now an amazing 14 points. The only problem is we can only deliver them via LR or Rhino. Otherwise, 5 chosen wielding plasma or combi plasma are now just 145 points. And equally, hellbrutes now are cheap enough to be worth considering. A reaper autocannon hellbrute is under 100 points, and a missile launcher lascannon hellbrute is just 120 points. 120 points so that I can fire frenzy it to shoot twice... I would seriously consider taking 3. That's 3 missile launchers and 6 lascannon shots for 360 points. If you activate fire frenzy every turn, thats 4 missile launcher shots and 8 lascannon shots every turn. (And we are talking about elite slots here, this is not heavy support slot!)

I still find it questionable that our worse cultists are now more expensive then IG squads...

VOTLW on the 40-man blob though. Still worth taking them.

The nerf does invalidate that 350+ cultist super spam list though.

 slave.entity wrote:
VOTLW on the 40-man blob though. Still worth taking them.

The nerf does invalidate that 350+ cultist super spam list though.

Yeah because that will change now will it, because we have free acess to other cheap manpower and CP generation in our codex?
Not to mention that our CSM somehow still are 13 ppm and Chosen are now 14 ppm?

Chaotic 32 will now become a lot more enticing for csm players i guess.

Yep. Still by far our best troops choice. I mean considering the alternative is marines. :0

 slave.entity wrote:
Yep. Still by far our best troops choice. I mean considering the alternative is marines. :0

Well technically Noise marines and Berzerkers are still a "troop" option, so long they don't get needlessly split away.........

Granted we can allways fall back on R&H fodder for CP, (also some AM toys, like sentinels, or Leman russes, or Hydras, etc)

Sooooo.... more defilers now? By my calculations its 147 points for: Scourge, Battle Cannon, RAC, and combi bolter... on a 14 wound, regenerating, demon, which isn't half bad. And if it gets into CC with something big it will hurt it

Something I noticed going through things for my world eaters. Hellforged contemptors are WAY cheaper. Dual chainclaw with 2 ectoplasma blasters is 158 points. For me that's 6 s14 ap-4 dam4 attacks in CC, and 4 s8 ap-2 dam2 shots at 18". I already have one of these, I might see about getting a few more. Big winners of this are Helbrutes of all shapes and sizes.

Ok, just saw another thing. Not sure who else has loved the heck out of the hellforged achilles, but its down over 50 points. Yeah, its now only 400 points. It was good before at 450+, but its a wrecking house at 400.

What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.

The trend continues, each FAQ and CA that gets published makes my army cheaper. These rules changes favor shooty armies by a large margin.

Warp Talons are now 24 ppm with wargear. 3 S4 AP-2 attacks each with rerolls to wound is not bad, would almost be good with a jump pack lord in the vicinity.

So more or less been confirmed no change to faction / legion trait etc.- there was all these "leaks" claiming -1 to hit moved to +1 cover - but looking through all chapter approved reveal no evidence of this?

I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.

Nature's Minister wrote:
I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.

Don't know about that. We still have Abaddon.

Aren't warp talons 2 attacks?

Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?

What in the codex is going to reliably take a raven castellan off the board before it eats your army?

Especially since guard is still 4ppm it's gonna be hard to win the numbers game lol

orkswubwub wrote:
So more or less been confirmed no change to faction / legion trait etc.- there was all these "leaks" claiming -1 to hit moved to +1 cover - but looking through all chapter approved reveal no evidence of this?

No, a lot of other stuff is still in the dark, only the points and a couple other things are floating around. Theres still a lot of other stuff

 Red Corsair wrote:
Aren't warp talons 2 attacks?

Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?

Double lightning claws means +1 attack.

Pretty sure you can take combi-bolter and chainsword on the Chosen. Not sure there's a reason to take CSM anymore except RoT and the fact they are troops.

Nature's Minister wrote:
I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.

There is no alpha legion nerf.

There are however, massiv point drops to daemon engines, brutes and other chaos goodies. also our daemon allies dropped quite a bit.
PM and rubrics seem to be viable at their new costs too.


I'm not saying its the time of chaos, but I'd say we are going to take a step up.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Aren't warp talons 2 attacks?

Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?

Double lightning claws means +1 attack.

Pretty sure you can take combi-bolter and chainsword on the Chosen. Not sure there's a reason to take CSM anymore except RoT and the fact they are troops.

Warp talons only have 1 attack base. Lightning adds +1. Only way to go to 3 is as world eaters (which isnt a bad idea for them to be)

 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.

Could work, TBH... they're weaker Khorne zerkers, but with added shooting. 80 pts isn't bad for 5; the biggest issue is getting them where they wanna go. I'd probably do a 10 man squad in a Rhino.

I don't know.
Sotrmbolters are fun and all, but don't strike me as that great.
I mean, you gotta get close, and you are not exactly durable with a simple marine statline-and even then its not THAT lethal, merely 10 bolters worth-nothing to write home about.

at 75 points you can have 3 spawn crashing into them, and as much as looking down at spawn is a meme-Id probably be more worried about the spawn.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't know.
Sotrmbolters are fun and all, but don't strike me as that great.
I mean, you gotta get close, and you are not exactly durable with a simple marine statline-and even then its not THAT lethal, merely 10 bolters worth-nothing to write home about.

at 75 points you can have 3 spawn crashing into them, and as much as looking down at spawn is a meme-Id probably be more worried about the spawn.

Don Hooson (the dude who won BAO this year) stated his primary reason of taking Blightlords was a ton of stormbolter shots to clear out stuff like Imp guard squads... of course, BLT's deep strike in, and they take quite a bit to kill.

Stormbolters are really good, though. 4 shots does some work

Blightlords...for storm bolters?
That makes zero sense. they are merely a stormbolter per 45 point body, that's not much better than half the normal CSM bolting rate even if they didn't take any specials.

I'm not saying bolters are useless. quantity has a quality of its own-its the platform I'm concerned about. I'm not sure the virtue of a cheap bolter (effectively at 8 points per bolter) overcomes the fact its a 16 point body that is defensively identical to your stand-of-the-mill CSM.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Blightlords...for storm bolters?
That makes zero sense. they are merely a stormbolter per 45 point body, that's not much better than half the normal CSM bolting rate even if they didn't take any specials.

I'm not saying bolters are useless. quantity has a quality of its own-its the platform I'm concerned about. I'm not sure the virtue of a cheap bolter (effectively at 8 points per bolter) overcomes the fact its a 16 point body that is defensively identical to your stand-of-the-mill CSM.

They also take a lot of punishment, and have an 18” quadruple-tap, and a pretty good uppercut. Right now, they’re as close Terminators get to good, even viable in some lists. Give it a week, and they’ll be 4pts cheaper

Exactly-but its not the storm bolters that is the selling point.
Its DSing, being though as nails, and hitting FAR harder in CC.

 Zid wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.

Could work, TBH... they're weaker Khorne zerkers, but with added shooting. 80 pts isn't bad for 5; the biggest issue is getting them where they wanna go. I'd probably do a 10 man squad in a Rhino.

Assuming the FW Termite didn't go up in price, that would be the best bet for clearing chaff. 6 man squad with all Chainswords, 5 Combi-Bolters and a Flamer, and you do two of those for a Termite and Deep Strike a Lord of some kind.

It's a shame its max 5 combibolters per squad. Prescience + VOTL + Cacophony would be rediculous amount of bullets.

I was also considering throwing Kharne in with World Eater chosen now that he's an inexpensive blender. Hop out of a drill, fire with full rerolls, and then charge with 4attacks per chosen with more rerolls.
Berserkers are also good, but I find they take care of themselves pretty well. And sometimes you want to shoot something before you charge something else.